EU referendum

[FanchesterCity]

From a quick look:
- A digital camera from outside the EU faces a duty of 4.9% from inside it, there is no duty.
- A typical vacuum cleaner faces a duty of 2.2%
- Coffee (unroasted, not decaffeinated) is 0.0%
- Coffee (roasted, not decaffeinated) is 7.5%

Just examples of how varied and highly granular it is (pardon the coffee pun!)

 

[FanchesterCity]

The EU is a broken system. Whatever the Great British Public vote remember that the EU is going down the toilet whether you like it or not.

We need to leave this sinking ship, be a market leader in the World for a change. Just like the U.S would do in this Situation as a World Power (which is what Britain is supposed to be). Tell other nations to do one. We are too nice (to our detriment but we can no longer afford to be when it is our own families suffering), and scared about change. What is the worse that could happen? surely won't be much worse then now..

I believe it needs significant improvement but broken?

Can you explain how 4 of the top 10 economies remain in such a position given this 'broken' state of the union. Or 2 of the top 5?

 

[FanchesterCity]

Ah but what you've failed to mention is that it is bureaucratic EU law which is preventing our government to bail the industry out

Margrethe Vestager (EU Commisioner) summed up the rules earlier this year.

She said: "EU countries and the Commission have put in place strict safeguards against state aid to rescue and restructure steel companies in difficulty."

Are you seriously suggesting that it was better to let the industry suffer then bail it out, than to prevent or reduce the problem in the first place?
Let me get this right - the UK courted the Chinese and vetoed the tariff on their cheap (massively subsidised) steel, and our steel industry suffered as a result. Then you complain that we are hindered in bailing it out? - bailing it out by the way does not fix the problem - the Chinese steel is still there. Perhaps we can carry on bailing it out with our bucket rather than turning off the tap in the first place!

My God.

 

[Monkfish]

What is the worse that could happen? surely won't be much worse then now..

I still haven't been told what actually is so bad about now? Too many people in employment? Standard of living too high?

I live in one of the richest countries in the world in the most prosperous time in mans whole existence, am I shielded from the countries problems in Stockport? Don't tease me Malt, whats this nightmare your being put through by the EU? They waterboarding you in a secret location in Rochdale?

 

[IanBishopsHaircut]

Are you seriously suggesting that it was better to let the industry suffer then bail it out, than to prevent or reduce the problem in the first place?
Let me get this right - the UK courted the Chinese and vetoed the tariff on their cheap (massively subsidised) steel, and our steel industry suffered as a result. Then you complain that we are hindered in bailing it out? - bailing it out by the way does not fix the problem - the Chinese steel is still there. Perhaps we can carry on bailing it out with our bucket rather than turning off the tap in the first place!

My God.

You're talking more about politics now though...A tory government vetoed the tariff...if it was a Labour government can you argue it would have gone the same way?

Unlikely

But now it has...we are prevented from helping it recover...again...whether the tories would do that is another thing altogether

 

[Chippy_boy]

Ah but what you've failed to mention is that it is bureaucratic EU law which is preventing our government to bail the industry out

Margrethe Vestager (EU Commisioner) summed up the rules earlier this year.

She said: "EU countries and the Commission have put in place strict safeguards against state aid to rescue and restructure steel companies in difficulty."

True enough, fair point.

 

[FanchesterCity]

See my response to franchester he seems to understand it rather than just throw insults and say Stephen Hawkins says it's ok so then....

I am in business and trade globally and seriously may be arrested as I have never looked at a fooking trading agreement once.

I await some sensible debate with some substance.

Go rant at some one else.

You will (or should be) taxed on some of your imports... for instance when you import from China, you're supposed to declare what you bought, and how much of it etc and a tariff is applied. You won't necessarily see any 'agreement' you'll just pay the fee. It may well be (can't be certain) that it's already being factored into to price you're paying, or 'transparent' to you - but it's there.
Of course, if you buy a digital camera off ebay and it's coming from Japan (for instance) you're usually questioned about what goods you're buying and taxed accordingly, but most people lie. Not so easy with a big business though.

 

[AlgarveBlu]

I believe it needs significant improvement but broken?

Can you explain how 4 of the top 10 economies remain in such a position given this 'broken' state of the union. Or 2 of the top 5?

In its current state it's broken - you can't cherry pick specific countries to validate a general point as you miss out the other 20 or so that make up the whole club you are referring to. I've already highlighted the social and consequences of this botched up experiment so I won't repeat, but these are facts which is something we can work with unlike all the hypothetical discussions on future trade agreements which may or may not be right.

Misdirection on a grand scale which is fair play to 'remain' and poor so far on 'leave' although I heard they will be changing tact on this very matter shortly.

 

[FanchesterCity]

You're talking more about politics now though...A tory government vetoed the tariff...if it was a Labour government can you argue it would have gone the same way?

Unlikely

But now it has...we are prevented from helping it recover...again...whether the tories would do that is another thing altogether

Well yes, I take you point on that, but it's still a case that sometimes the EU is acting more sensibly and the incumbent UK government is the one making the bad choices.
In leaving, we are judging that the incumbent UK government will make smarter / better business decisions than our European counterparts. I'm not sure I have that level of faith. I'm not saying I have blind faith in Europe either, but I'm finding myself liking French privacy policies and disliking our own. I'm liking the EU's question of big businesses and not liking our own subservience to them. I'm liking the EU's caution in waging wars in foreign lands, and I'm not liking our haste to engage militarily...
Basically, I'm generally thinking they are making better choices! - not perfect ones, but overall, they get my vote.

 

[Chippy_boy]

See my response to franchester he seems to understand it rather than just throw insults and say Stephen Hawkins says it's ok so then....

I am in business and trade globally and seriously may be arrested as I have never looked at a fooking trading agreement once.

I await some sensible debate with some substance.

PMSL again. Priceless, absolutely priceless.

 

[Chippy_boy]

The EU is a broken system. Whatever the Great British Public vote remember that the EU is going down the toilet whether you like it or not.

We need to leave this sinking ship, be a market leader in the World for a change. Just like the U.S would do in this Situation as a World Power (which is what Britain is supposed to be). Tell other nations to do one. We are too nice (to our detriment but we can no longer afford to be when it is our own families suffering), and scared about change. What is the worse that could happen? surely won't be much worse then now..

Did you have Land of Hope and Glory playing the background when you wrote that? Written in 1902, btw.

 

[Pino]

Funny you should bring them up. The EU was in favour of penal tariffs on cheap Chinese steel imports, in an effort to protect European steel businesses. But the deal was quashed, because the UK veto'd it. Yes, the UK.

If we gave more power to Europe, our steel industry would have been protected. You could not make it up.

Don't we import more steel products from the EU, than China ?

 

[FanchesterCity]

In its current state it's broken - you can't cherry pick specific countries to validate a general point as you miss out the other 20 or so that make up the whole club you are referring to. I've already highlighted the social and consequences of this botched up experiment so I won't repeat, but these are facts which is something we can work with unlike all the hypothetical discussions on future trade agreements which may or may not be right.

Misdirection on a grand scale which is fair play to 'remain' and poor so far on 'leave' although I heard they will be changing tact on this very matter shortly.

I'm not cherry picking. We (the UK) are right in there doing pretty well within the EU. Miraculous given it's broken nature. Germany is doing the same, and France, and Italy, and Holland, and Spain, and Poland and Belgium...

9 of the top 30 economies all within this failed system. Of course there a members not doing too well either (but they weren't doing well before joining either). It's not perfect (far from it).

 

[BlueHammer85]

I just re-read this and laughed out loud. We have every reputable independent (and not independent for that matter) body from the Institute for Fiscal Studies to the TUC, from the WTO to the IMF, from IBM to the National Institute of Economic and Social Research. The Treasury, the US President, every European leader, Unison, the NUS, Bill Gates, Richard Branson, NHS leaders. The list of people who say leaving would be bad for our economy is almost endless. 81% of small businesses. 92% of large businesses. Stephen fucking Hawking FFS.

And you say "you aren't just making it up and guessing are you". PMSL honestly.

Think most Brexiters realise the economy will take a hit, that's not really in depute. question is however,as soon as independence is acquired all those institutions would work towards a better model, if we stay in they will argue that we will defiantly suffer the same in a decreasing EU economy which has been stagnating and slowing for 15 years

 

[IanBishopsHaircut]

I think we all want what is best for our country at the end of the day...it's just about what angle you are coming at it from...not everyone who wants out is a racist bigot...just as much as not everyone who wants to remain is a Capitalist toff...there is loads of complete bollocks being spouted by both sides...I'm purely Brexit because of what is happening now...along with my fears on how the EU will implode further down the line...despite the TUC stance...it is very anti-union

This is from Socialist Worker...who are Brexit

Union leaders sometimes claim that the EU is the only thing standing between unscrupulous bosses and workers’ rights.

TUC general secretary Frances O’Grady claimed, “It’s the EU that guarantees workers paid holidays, parental leave and equal treatment of part-timers.”

In reality, it was the unions that O’Grady leads that won those rights.

Their struggles mean that some British workplace legislation, such as health and safety, is stronger than the EU demands.

The Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 came out of a mass upsurge in union struggle that toppled Edward Heath’s Tory government.

It’s been under relentless Tory attack. But the EU’s “Better Regulation” agenda won’t give workers more protection. It makes clear that “suppressing unnecessary administrative burdens” is crucial for business.

That’s because the EU is no friend of workers’ rights—and that doesn’t only apply in countries such as Greece where it’s imposing brutal austerity.

It is based on “four freedoms” for bosses. The EU guarantees them the right to set up business, provide services, move capital and hire labour across its member states.

There was no real mention of “social rights” in the Treaty of Rome of 1957 that founded the EU. It only began adopting some weak measures to sugar the pill.

EU “directives” have little impact on workers’ terms and conditions, and do not protect union rights. Unfair dismissal rights and the minimum wage have nothing to do with the EU.

If workers’ rights clash with the “four freedoms”, the EU always comes down on the bosses’ side.

In 2007 Finnish ferry company Viking tried to operate from neighbouring Estonia to get around a union agreement. The European Court of Justice (ECJ) ruled in the bosses’ favour, saying that workers taking action could restrict Viking’s “right” to relocate.

British Airways bosses used the ruling to stop the Balpa pilots’ union striking against plans to set up a subsidiary with worse terms and conditions.

Our rights are under attack from the Tories and the EU. Only workers’ struggles will defend them

 

[Malty]

Think most Brexiters realise the economy will take a hit, that's not really in depute. question is however,as soon as independence is acquired all those institutions would work towards a better model, if we stay in they will argue that we will defiantly suffer the same in a decreasing EU economy which has been stagnating and slowing for 15 years

Short-term hit for long-term picture gain is what the Brexiters are smarter than the average bear at.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Are you seriously suggesting that it was better to let the industry suffer then bail it out, than to prevent or reduce the problem in the first place?
Let me get this right - the UK courted the Chinese and vetoed the tariff on their cheap (massively subsidised) steel, and our steel industry suffered as a result. Then you complain that we are hindered in bailing it out? - bailing it out by the way does not fix the problem - the Chinese steel is still there. Perhaps we can carry on bailing it out with our bucket rather than turning off the tap in the first place!

My God.

That Chinese steel is made with good outback iron ore , so when it floods in tariff free , at least you are helping my pension fund. But you don't want to open yourself up to far more productive competition if you want to maintain wages and employment or unless you are prepared for in the short term at least really rough conditions

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

From a quick look:
- A digital camera from outside the EU faces a duty of 4.9% from inside it, there is no duty.
- A typical vacuum cleaner faces a duty of 2.2%
- Coffee (unroasted, not decaffeinated) is 0.0%
- Coffee (roasted, not decaffeinated) is 7.5%

Just examples of how varied and highly granular it is (pardon the coffee pun!)

Ok thanks helpful. I thought it would be higher but it's definitely relevant.

 

[EalingBlue2]

Funny you should bring them up. The EU was in favour of penal tariffs on cheap Chinese steel imports, in an effort to protect European steel businesses. But the deal was quashed, because the UK veto'd it. Yes, the UK.

If we gave more power to Europe, our steel industry would have been protected. You could not make it up.

Don't my tell @BigJoe#1 such things steel in South Wales is one of his main put reasons

 

[Tim of the Oak]

I think we all want what is best for our country at the end of the day...it's just about what angle you are coming at it from...not everyone who wants out is a racist bigot...just as much as not everyone who wants to remain is a Capitalist toff...there is loads of complete bollocks being spouted by both sides...I'm purely Brexit because of what is happening now...along with my fears on how the EU will implode further down the line...despite the TUC stance...it is very anti-union

This is from Socialist Worker...who are Brexit

Union leaders sometimes claim that the EU is the only thing standing between unscrupulous bosses and workers’ rights.

TUC general secretary Frances O’Grady claimed, “It’s the EU that guarantees workers paid holidays, parental leave and equal treatment of part-timers.”

In reality, it was the unions that O’Grady leads that won those rights.

Their struggles mean that some British workplace legislation, such as health and safety, is stronger than the EU demands.

The Health and Safety at Work Act 1974 came out of a mass upsurge in union struggle that toppled Edward Heath’s Tory government.

It’s been under relentless Tory attack. But the EU’s “Better Regulation” agenda won’t give workers more protection. It makes clear that “suppressing unnecessary administrative burdens” is crucial for business.

That’s because the EU is no friend of workers’ rights—and that doesn’t only apply in countries such as Greece where it’s imposing brutal austerity.

It is based on “four freedoms” for bosses. The EU guarantees them the right to set up business, provide services, move capital and hire labour across its member states.

There was no real mention of “social rights” in the Treaty of Rome of 1957 that founded the EU. It only began adopting some weak measures to sugar the pill.

EU “directives” have little impact on workers’ terms and conditions, and do not protect union rights. Unfair dismissal rights and the minimum wage have nothing to do with the EU.

If workers’ rights clash with the “four freedoms”, the EU always comes down on the bosses’ side.

In 2007 Finnish ferry company Viking tried to operate from neighbouring Estonia to get around a union agreement. The European Court of Justice (ECJ) ruled in the bosses’ favour, saying that workers taking action could restrict Viking’s “right” to relocate.

British Airways bosses used the ruling to stop the Balpa pilots’ union striking against plans to set up a subsidiary with worse terms and conditions.

Our rights are under attack from the Tories and the EU. Only workers’ struggles will defend them

Maybe not social rights but the Treaty of Rome did provide for a Social Fund (IIRC) and whether we like it or not, aspirations for social rights grew from there.

The EU institutions do not always come down on the bosses side. View the ECJ Rulings in the SiMAP and Jaeger cases if you want examples!

You are right that the written text in Directives doesn't often go beyond earlier EU legislation. It's the interpretation by the ECJ that often comes to different conclusions.

The EU is far from perfect but it has done quite a lot for workers rights in practice!