EU referendum

[BigJoe#1]

You've already made clear long ago that neither scare stories or indeed facts matter remotely to you and whatever happens you are out and proud. I sincerely hope the price your kids and their kids pay is worth it.... But that won't matter because it's all a scare story and everyone will be fine and dandy . You may be loaded, but 1% of savings means a fair bit to some people

I am neither loaded nor in poverty. It's my children and my children alone that I am thinking of in voting to leave.

My daughter works in Sweden, in Stockholm and I hold no fear about her prospects there.

You are right about one thing, though it's taken you a long time to get there. I will not bow to and be swayed by scare stories, they are the lowest, cheapest and most despicable debating tools and are being expertly deployed by both sides though very much more so by Cameron and Gideon and their cohorts. As for facts I have not seen any facts from the Remain side, merely speculation and opinion, which in fairness they, like us all are entitled to, but to call them facts.... that's low!

Still, we shall see who wins in a few days time. Whichever side wins now Britain will lose (thanks for that Dave).

 

[Tanzeylee]

A Brexiter by any chance ?! You've only got to look at his photo and the words right wing twat spring to mind !

What do you call the left wingers that are voting out?

 

[TCIB]

Went in the industrial estate caf the other day (Bradley hall, Standish) and everyone kinda knows each other so everyone talks load and everyone kinda joins in.
I think there were 17ish people in and 3 staff, all were voting out when some fella mentioned it. One chap said nothing but the rest all wanted out.
That is as close as i have personally come to gauge any real opinion, thought some more would want in tbh but pretty vocal about wanting out.

 

[yep]

Labour says the EU has helped and will help the working class. I wish they would keep up to date.

But -recent European Commission publication entitled “Better Regulation and Transparency1 ” (30 October 2015). Page 3 of the above-mentioned publication reads “The EU must not be big on small things”. Crucially the deregulation agenda has been re-branded as Better Regulation and this masks a serious effort to undermine the implementation of current rules which serve an important social or environmental purpose. Additionally, Better Regulation represents a wholesale revamp of how new regulations are to be made which sees big business given a privileged voice – ahead of elected politicians.
Not content with giving European big business an enhanced say in EU policy-making, proposals under the EU-US trade deal (TTIP) would seek to extend that to US trade authorities (acting on behalf of US corporations), binding both the EU and the US into this deregulation agenda.

 

[mcfc1996]

I'm really one of the undecided. Until now I'm one of the guys on the "In" lot at the top of the page. There is a great deal of shite to cut through for the man/woman/person on the street to decide their favoured course of action. I'm convinced that most people I have spoken to that have decided "Out" have done so for a lot of the wrong reasons and a lack of understanding. In areas such as where I live most buy the bullshit on sovereignty and immigration.

 

[mcfc1632]

A Brexiter by any chance ?! You've only got to look at his photo and the words right wing twat spring to mind !

Good balanced and thoughtful analysis

 

[mcfc1632]

You've already made clear long ago that neither scare stories or indeed facts matter remotely to you and whatever happens you are out and proud. I sincerely hope the price your kids and their kids pay is worth it.... But that won't matter because it's all a scare story and everyone will be fine and dandy . You may be loaded, but 1% of savings means a fair bit to some people

There is increasing irony in some of your posts

You have posted more than anyone I would think on this thread and in the main regurgitated the 'facts' that a lot of people on here view to be scare stories - that is their right.

Some on here, including myself, have commented that it seems that, despite there being evidence that the battering of scare stories are driving undecided voters towards Leave, the Remainers are incapable of adapting their approach - it is all they (and in this instance you) seem to have in the locker.

 

[kevin horlocks wand]

There is increasing irony in some of your posts

You have posted more than anyone I would think on this thread and in the main regurgitated the 'facts' that a lot of people on here view to be scare stories - that is their right.

Some on here, including myself, have commented that it seems that, despite there being evidence that the battering of scare stories are driving undecided voters towards Leave, the Remainers are incapable of adapting their approach - it is all they (and in this instance you) seem to have in the locker.

He won't respond now mate, he will have gone to bed its night time in Australia.

 

[YPhrunts]

I'm really one of the undecided. Until now I'm one of the guys on the "In" lot at the top of the page. There is a great deal of shite to cut through for the man/woman/person on the street to decide their favoured course of action. I'm convinced that most people I have spoken to that have decided "Out" have done so for a lot of the wrong reasons and a lack of understanding. In areas such as where I live most buy the bullshit on sovereignty and immigration.

Yes we all have our own perceptions. If you are unsure just ask yourself the question would you join the EU knowing what you now know?

 

[MillionMilesAway]

Yes we all have our own perceptions. If you are unsure just ask yourself the question would you join the EU knowing what you now know?

I think that's a deliberately slanted angle to approach the issue, and one I've seen from soundbiteers. In my opinion, it is phrased deliberately to obscure the fact that there will be a lot of undoing to undergo to leave, whether financial or any other form.

 

[mcfc1632]

Cannot be arsed to google so will trust to my (increasingly unreliable) memory.

Am I right to remember that there have been previous votes against EU membership or expansion - Ireland and somewhere else?? What happened was that in both cases the EU did not take no for an answer and dropped a load of sweeteners on the nation in question and had another vote when it was clear the right answer would be obtained.

If this memory is vaguely correct surely it follows that there should be 2 key determinations:

1/ that the strategy for any undecided voters should/would be to vote leave because we are likely to have 2 years of 'preparations/negotiations' during which the UK will have the upper-hand with the EU promising all sorts in the hope of persuading our parliament to determine that there has been changes of such a material/fundamental nature that another vote is needed to ensure that there is a mandate. This way much more is secured and little lost - and

2/ That Leave voters should be really concerned that this is exactly what will happen with Parliament accepting a remain vote as an instruction and a leave vote as an challenge to be addressed.

 

[cibaman]

Yes we all have our own perceptions. If you are unsure just ask yourself the question would you join the EU knowing what you now know?

No, but then we wouldn't have to go through the pain of exiting.

If we were to have a competent government managing the exit process I think it could be a success. The ones that will be in charge scare the living daylights out of me. They'll do more damage in the next 5 years than the EU could do in 50.

 

[manctheknife]

Cannot be arsed to google so will trust to my (increasingly unreliable) memory.

Am I right to remember that there have been previous votes against EU membership or expansion - Ireland and somewhere else?? What happened was that in both cases the EU did not take no for an answer and dropped a load of sweeteners on the nation in question and had another vote when it was clear the right answer would be obtained.

If this memory is vaguely correct surely it follows that there should be 2 key determinations:

1/ that the strategy for any undecided voters should/would be to vote leave because we are likely to have 2 years of 'preparations/negotiations' during which the UK will have the upper-hand with the EU promising all sorts in the hope of persuading our parliament to determine that there has been changes of such a material/fundamental nature that another vote is needed to ensure that there is a mandate. This way much more is secured and little lost - and

2/ That Leave voters should be really concerned that this is exactly what will happen with Parliament accepting a remain vote as an instruction and a leave vote as an challenge to be addressed.

Were those referenda not for ratification of the Maastricht (?) treaty?....but yeah, get your point. If we vote out it may sharpen a few EU policies in our favour, before the rerun.

 

[AlgarveBlu]

Cannot be arsed to google so will trust to my (increasingly unreliable) memory.

Am I right to remember that there have been previous votes against EU membership or expansion - Ireland and somewhere else?? What happened was that in both cases the EU did not take no for an answer and dropped a load of sweeteners on the nation in question and had another vote when it was clear the right answer would be obtained.

If this memory is vaguely correct surely it follows that there should be 2 key determinations:

1/ that the strategy for any undecided voters should/would be to vote leave because we are likely to have 2 years of 'preparations/negotiations' during which the UK will have the upper-hand with the EU promising all sorts in the hope of persuading our parliament to determine that there has been changes of such a material/fundamental nature that another vote is needed to ensure that there is a mandate. This way much more is secured and little lost - and

2/ That Leave voters should be really concerned that this is exactly what will happen with Parliament accepting a remain vote as an instruction and a leave vote as an challenge to be addressed.

On the first part of your message I will copy and paste on an earlier response I made on that issue you raised :-

So you're quite happy to live under a sovereign and democratic system where results go against the wishes of the eu are ignored?

France referendum 2005 on ratification of the eu constitution - result IGNORED by the EU (Change your own constitution to fit ours)

Irish referendum 2008 on ratification of Lisbon treaty - result IGNORED by EU (try again silly Irish people)

Swiss referendum 2014 to curb inward eu migration - result IGNORED by EU (we're not bitter honest)

Greek referendum 2015 on bailout conditions - result IGNORED by EU (lump it and enjoy)

Dutch referendum 2016 on Ukraine-eu - result will be IGNORED by EU

I'm not sure what the system is in Australia but if it's like Switzerland democracy and referendum on matters are the cornerstone to the countries very being and you're looking at the most prosperous country in Europe -

 

[yep]

Gordon Brown's next location for speaking in favour of Remain is revealed.

 

[cibaman]

He's always been the poster boy for euroscepticism. He promised to be a good boy to get the Tory support to run as Mayor. He's simply returned to his roots.

One can be a fan of Europe and not want to be part of an increasingly Federal European super state.

I know you said it's just your opinion but I think it's grossly unfair and inaccurate to say he's betrayed his real thoughts. If he had backed the remain campaign then I'd agree with you.

To be fair to him, you couldn't really expect him to commit to Leave until he could be confident that they were in with a chance, or at least unlikey to lose heavily.

 

[urban genie]

This sums boris up for me, an opportunist bullshitter that will change his position for his gain and his gain only.



Europe is a double edged sword, dammed if we stay and dammed if we don't, but I still see remaining as a lesser of 2 evils at the momment and the leave campaign have failed to convince me of any different.

 

[Credo]

Appreciate that and it is a fair response , but the bus is moving and getting off is not without risk

There is a risk in getting off the bus, but it is a far greater risk to stay on when the destination of the bus is political and fiscal union.

 

[Credo]

It's what brexiters are doing an unplanned , non strategic, gut decision and to hell with the consequences , also amazed how many older people with pensions locked in and no mortgages are so happy to gamble with their kids and grandkids future . Yet will expect those kids and grandkids to keep the Ponzi scheme going and keep their pensions and healthcare going

Life pre 1975 was still good.

 

[YPhrunts]

No, but then we wouldn't have to go through the pain of exiting.

If we were to have a competent government managing the exit process I think it could be a success. The ones that will be in charge scare the living daylights out of me. They'll do more damage in the next 5 years than the EU could do in 50.

So what you and MillionMIlesaway are saying is that you don't vote on principle just on pragmatic issues. Fair enough but it's not how I would vote if I was coming at this with a new vision.