Toni Kroos

[cucumberman]

yaya was a one off. He set the bar so high in the early years with us even he can no longer get near that level. 3 goals in 68 for real tells me kroos won't come close either, to be honest i don't think anyone playing midfield for us will.

Yaya had 4 goals in 74 with Barca. It's amazing what a manager and the right tactics can do. Yaya was never a run around in circles player. He compensate his ambling demeanour, granted he can pick up pace, with speedy passes. Fortunately for us, Pep is more about the speed of the pass than the run of the player.

But I feel it's too little too late. Yaya's somewhat disillusioned about his future, maybe the wonder world painted by Dimitri Seluk

 

[Neville Kneville]

My two cents: I think a motivated & fit Yaya could in theory do what we're asking Kroos to do, but I have no idea how we could ever know that we're getting that Yaya. I'm not particularly worried about the ground Yaya would have to cover under Pep, and I'm likewise not terribly bothered by the lack of ground Kroos covers. It's more the urgency Kroos has (and that Yaya doesn't these days)... when Kroos gets the ball, he immediately has his head high and looks for the most advanced safe harbor up the pitch. That process happens very quickly. Doesn't matter if Kroos isn't quick in a foot race, the ball is quick up the pitch when it goes through him. I think Yaya has those passes and that ability in his locker, but I don't see him making himself constantly available, and I feel like our play occasionally slows when he gets it (compared to Kroos). If the ball went from backline, through Yaya, to an attacking midfielder in only a few seconds, with regularity, then sure... I'd hear the case. Just doesn't feel like that's always his natural tempo.

Yaya has been playing for Manuel Pellegrini though. In the same setup, Kroos would be surrounded by 6 Liverpool players with our lads loafing about disinterested in front of him. His best option often Joe Hart.

 

[Tron Coltrane]

yaya was a one off. He set the bar so high in the early years with us even he can no longer get near that level. 3 goals in 68 for real tells me kroos won't come close either, to be honest i don't think anyone playing midfield for us will.

I think we're all talking about whether or not Yaya can do the job Kroos would be called in to do, not the job Yaya used to do. Comparing Kroos to what Yaya's role used to be isn't very helpful. It's about as enlightening as comparing Modric to what Yaya used to be, in which case Modric's scoring record is shit.

 

[Neville Kneville]

That's exactly what I mean about him dictating the possession and pace of our play, how many times did we see it last season where we had possession of the ball and we "slowed" the play down to nigh on walking pace through Yaya side to side, back, middle, side to side?

When Kroos gets the ball his first thought is forward, same as KDB, both Pep style players

Did Yaya really have so many options for playing a quick ball ?

 

[domalino]

That's exactly what I mean about him dictating the possession and pace of our play, how many times did we see it last season where we had possession of the ball and we "slowed" the play down to nigh on walking pace through Yaya side to side, back, middle, side to side?

When Kroos gets the ball his first thought is forward, same as KDB, both Pep style players

I think a lot of that is to do with Yaya's physical drop off though. He's moving slower, he's not as high up the pitch when he gets the ball, he's in less space because people can close him down quicker and all that shuts down forward passing opportunities.

He's also lost that little burst of pace to beat a player before passing the ball.

 

[Tron Coltrane]

Yaya has been playing for Manuel Pellegrini though. In the same setup, Kroos would be surrounded by 6 Liverpool players with our lads loafing about disinterested in front of him. His best option often Joe Hart.

Which is part of why I hedged my comment: I think it's possible that Yaya could be that. I just haven't seen it, and I don't know how we could be confident we had that going into the season. Just a case of once bitten twice shy with him. I'd feel more comfortable with somebody who already plays that way with regularity.

That said, the club is staffed by my betters. If Pep sees it in Yaya -- maybe the two go on a weekend fishing trip, really get inside each other's heads -- and he feels Yaya can fill that role for us this season, I'll retract my "time for Yaya to go" statements and see what the season brings.

 

[domalino]

Did Yaya really have so many options for playing a quick ball ?

I don't think he had more options in 13/14 when he was lethal on the transition with a quick ball out to Navas or Aguero.

With sterling on the other side this year he probably had 1 extra option running ahead of him wanting the early pass.

Yaya is the one who changed.

 

[Neville Kneville]

Which is part of why I hedged my comment: I think it's possible that Yaya could be that. I just haven't seen it, and I don't know how we could be confident we had that going into the season. Just a case of once bitten twice shy with him. I'd feel more comfortable with somebody who already plays that way with regularity.

That said, the club is staffed by my betters. If Pep sees it in Yaya -- maybe the two go on a weekend fishing trip, really get inside each other's heads -- and he feels Yaya can fill that role for us this season, I'll retract my "time for Yaya to go" statements and see what the season brings.

Possibly that is what Pep is doing right now.

 

[johnmc]

With the right attitude Yaya has another year in him I think. It's just whether his mind and heart is still with us.

 

[Tron Coltrane]

I think a lot of that is to do with Yaya's physical drop off though. He's moving slower, he's not as high up the pitch when he gets the ball, he's in less space because people can close him down quicker and all that shuts down forward passing opportunities.

He's also lost that little burst of pace to beat a player before passing the ball.

Right, but Kroos has no real athletic presence (which most are quick to point out). He moves slowly for a professional footballer, he's often not placed far up the pitch, and he's frequently in little space where people close him down quickly. But under those circumstances, he's carved out a really successful style and career.

 

[Neville Kneville]

I don't think he had more options in 13/14 when he was lethal on the transition with a quick ball out to Navas or Aguero.

With sterling on the other side this year he probably had 1 extra option running ahead of him wanting the early pass.

Yaya is the one who changed.

I think Yaya, as expected, can't be the same kind of player as he was. But I think our team under Pellegrini, lost it's mojo. Not just Yaya. Imo Yaya was better than Silva.

 

[Danamy]

I think a lot of that is to do with Yaya's physical drop off though. He's moving slower, he's not as high up the pitch when he gets the ball, he's in less space because people can close him down quicker and all that shuts down forward passing opportunities.

He's also lost that little burst of pace to beat a player before passing the ball.

I rest my case

It's a good debate and all about opinions but it's unfortunately too little to late for Yaya IMHO

I'm just glad I've been lucky enough to see him in his pomp and destroy/bully some players with his strength, I'll never forget that goal against Villa where he made it look like a Dad against kids game down the park.

 

[Dax777]

I have checked* the heatmap, and it bears out the same results. Kroos' average position is definitely further forward.

https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1...nal-European-Championship-2016-Germany-France

Also you don't know what the phrase red herring means - pointing out you're wrong to say Kroos was one of three central midfieldes, or suggesting Guardiola would stick with Yaya instead of buying Kroos if* the former was a better option - not red herrings.

Edit - typo

Red herring: - A red herring is something that misleads or distracts from a relevant or important issue

I said check the heat map. You respond by showing me the team sheet. Showing team sheet as proof is the definition of a red herring. But let's get back to football.

Heatmap.shows Kroos as I stated, clearly left of Center. His heat from that area is huge. Can doesn't have as much heat coz he didn't control play but his strongest areas, back helping on defense forward right, in the box left sid.and and right side just outside the box. Clearly not as involved as Kroos. But touches both farthest forward and farther back. Mostly on the right half of the field while Krois mostly on the left just past midfield.

 

[domalino]

Red herring: - A red herring is something that misleads or distracts from a relevant or important issue

I said check the heat map. You respond by showing me the team sheet. Showing team sheet as proof is the definition of a red herring. But let's get back to football.

Heatmap.shows Kroos as I stated, clearly left of Center. His heat from that area is huge. Can doesn't have as much heat coz he didn't control play but his strongest areas, back helping on defense forward right, in the box left sid.and and right side just outside the box. Clearly not as involved as Kroos. But touches both farthest forward and farther back. Mostly on the right half of the field while Krois mostly on the left just past midfield.

You said Kroos wasn't playing as a 10, I showed you a Germany's official teamsheet showing he was. That's not a red herring mate.

Kroos average position is definitely ahead of Can's, even if can had touches further forward than Kroos got.

He's left of centre so he opens up to pass on his right foot, not because he was on the left of a 3 man midfield.

 

[Danamy]

Red herring: - A red herring is something that misleads or distracts from a relevant or important issue

I said check the heat map. You respond by showing me the team sheet. Showing team sheet as proof is the definition of a red herring. But let's get back to football.

Heatmap.shows Kroos as I stated, clearly left of Center. His heat from that area is huge. Can doesn't have as much heat coz he didn't control play but his strongest areas, back helping on defense forward right, in the box left sid.and and right side just outside the box. Clearly not as involved as Kroos. But touches both farthest forward and farther back. Mostly on the right half of the field while Krois mostly on the left just past midfield.

What's interesting is the whole team heat map shows it's hottest patch in his position which proves that most things that Germany done went through him, for me Ozil and Muller went missing tonight.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

I think we clearly would have bought Pogba if Mino and co weren't money grabbers.

As for Kroos needing minding.

Last season:

Tackles Attempted: Fernandinho 165, Kroos 117, Pogba 100, Yaya 85 & Gundogan 69.
Tackles Completed: Fernandinho 105, Pogba 76, Kroos 64, Yaya 43 & Gundogan 37.
Tackle Completion %: Pogba 76, Fernandinho 64, Kroos 55, Gundogan 54 & Yaya 51.

Interceptions: Gundogan 57, Fernandinho 56, Pogba 47, Kroos 43, Yaya 25.
Clearances: Fernandinho 44, Yaya 35, Pogba 22, Gundogan 16, Kroos 11.
Blocks: Fernandinho 49, Pogba 49, Kroos 30, Yaya 20, Gundogan 17.

So Kroos gets stuck in although he isn't the best tackler, intercepts the ball nearly as much as the others, puts the blocks in as well and doesn't clear the ball, but that's because he can pass it.

Now for the good bit:
Passes completed: Kroos 2277, Gundogan 1776, Fernandinho 1636, Yaya 1589, Pogba 1417.
Pass Completion %: Kroos 94, Gundogan 88, Fernandinho 87, Yaya 86, Pogba 83.
Dispossessed: Kroos 28, Gundogan 51, Fernandinho 59, Yaya 73 & Pogba 178.
Dribbles Completed %: Yaya 78, Kroos 76, Gundogan 69, Fernandinho 67 & Pogba 61.
Shots on Target %: Pogba 31, Yaya 30, Gundogan 28, Kroos 20, Fernandinho 17.
Aerial Duel Win %: Pogba 65, Gundogan 50, Fernandinho 49, Yaya 49 & Kroos 42.

So if Pogba could use the ball like Kroos & wasn't a greedy bastard, then yeah he'd definitely be here. As that's not the case, I think Kroos is more than adept. Kroos is the facilitator that feeds the rest of the team endlessly, incredible stats really. Pogba's a more flamboyant and ambitious box to box kind of player, but much more erratic and inconsistent and at neither end of the pitch is he the huge chasms ahead of Kroos some say he is. Yes he dribbles 100 more times but he also loses the ball 150 more times and completes over 800 fewer passes.

 

[VOOMER]

I really hope we don't buy Kroos.

 

[Jim Tolmie's Underpants]

I really hope we don't buy Kroos.

 

[Danamy]

I think we clearly would have bought Pogba if Mino and co weren't money grabbers.

As for Kroos needing minding.

Last season:

Tackles Attempted: Fernandinho 165, Kroos 117, Pogba 100, Yaya 85 & Gundogan 69.
Tackles Completed: Fernandinho 105, Pogba 76, Kroos 64, Yaya 43 & Gundogan 37.
Tackle Completion %: Pogba 76, Fernandinho 64, Kroos 55, Gundogan 54 & Yaya 51.

Interceptions: Gundogan 57, Fernandinho 56, Pogba 47, Kroos 43, Yaya 25.
Clearances: Fernandinho 44, Yaya 35, Pogba 22, Gundogan 16, Kroos 11.
Blocks: Fernandinho 49, Pogba 49, Kroos 30, Yaya 20, Gundogan 17.

So Kroos gets stuck in although he isn't the best tackler, intercepts the ball nearly as much as the others, puts the blocks in as well and doesn't clear the ball, but that's because he can pass it.

Now for the good bit:
Passes completed: Kroos 2277, Gundogan 1776, Fernandinho 1636, Yaya 1589, Pogba 1417.
Pass Completion %: Kroos 94, Gundogan 88, Fernandinho 87, Yaya 86, Pogba 83.
Dispossessed: Kroos 28, Gundogan 51, Fernandinho 59, Yaya 73 & Pogba 178.
Dribbles Completed %: Yaya 78, Kroos 76, Gundogan 69, Fernandinho 67 & Pogba 61.
Shots on Target %: Pogba 31, Yaya 30, Gundogan 28, Kroos 20, Fernandinho 17.
Aerial Duel Win %: Pogba 65, Gundogan 50, Fernandinho 49, Yaya 49 & Kroos 42.

So if Pogba could use the ball like Kroos & wasn't a greedy bastard, then yeah he'd definitely be here. As that's not the case, I think Kroos is more than adept. Kroos is the facilitator that feeds the rest of the team endlessly, incredible stats really. Pogba's a more flamboyant and ambitious box to box kind of player, but much more erratic and inconsistent and at neither end of the pitch is he the huge chasms ahead of Kroos some say he is. Yes he dribbles 100 more times but he also loses the ball 150 more times and completes over 800 fewer passes.

In simple terms, Kroos is a possession and tempo machine

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

What's interesting is the whole team heat map shows it's hottest patch in his position which proves that most things that Germany done went through him, for me Ozil and Muller went missing tonight.

yhp, received the ball 95 times tonight. And to sum up your Ozil point, 76 passes today, 46 were to either Hector, Kroos or Kimmich, passing it backwards constantly.