Claudio Bravo - 2016/2017 performances (continued)

[mcfcphil]

I dont like Kolarov, havent liked him for 5 years but he has had some good games this season. I don't particularly like Otamendi, I think he is a headless chicken that plays for himself but there is no denying that in some games he has been outstanding.. I think Clichy is finished but over the years we have had decent service out of him. Zabba is not top level anymore but he has been magnificent for us and imo is a City legend. In comparison Bravo hasnt had a single good game since he arrived. That is why he is under more scrutiny. Fans are wondering why we got rid of a perfectly capable keeper for a guy who hasnt yet shown any quality whatsoever. When he actually does something decent, he will be under less scrutiny and split opinion more.

That's the thing - I'm not disagreeing that he should be scrutinised and shoulder some of the blame. It's the disproportionate nature of it and the way it's done that I take issue with.
I think you have hit the nail on the head with "fans are wondering why we got rid of a perfectly good keeper". That's the crux of this but it wasn't Bravo's decision. Nevertheless he's been subjected to jeering and ridicule by his own fans from day one because of it.

 

[Rolee]

get you. so if a city fan who is totally behind bravo labels a non bravo fan something they should be pulled up?

You're the mod mate, you tell me.

I haven't read the rules but I'm guessing name calling is against them.

 

[hcblue95]

Also of course he's going to get extra stick. We replaced Joe, who I would class as a City legend. England number one who has been with us for 10 years, signed before the takeover, and one of the only players to show any passion for the club. Replaced by this guy.

 

[M18CTID]

The bloke was getting ironic jeers from his own fans from pretty much the start of his career with us.
He's getting the overwhelming criticism for City's failings because he isn't pulling off world class saves - given the other glaring problems we have that's completely disproportionate.
We played well for 25 minutes against Everton and it was all due to keeping the ball and playing it out from the back - something Bravo played a significant part in.
But it isn't his fault we miss three or four guilt edged chances. It isn't his fault clichy gives the ball away twice. It isn't his fault that Otamendi stands around ball watching. But he gets the blame for not saving a shot from lukaku that's blasted past him from 12 yards.
Carragher said "de gea would have saved that". Well actually in the first six months at united when he was getting used to a new team and new league he couldn't catch a cold. He made far, far worse mistakes than Bravo has made.
Bravo isn't faultless - I'm not suggesting for a second that is - but it's the disproportionate nature of the critcism he's getting that's a bit of a joke. He's becoming scapegoat because people would rather blame him than blame Guardiola for the fact we play out from the back at all costs. People would rather blame him than blame guardiola for getting rid of Joe Hart.

Bravo has been on a hiding to nothing since the day he joined. Has he performed to a high level? No. But I'm pretty sure moans and groans in the stadium every time he plays the ball out don't help. I doubt jeering when he catches the ball help his confidence. I'm sure sporadic boos when his name is read out don't help (I hear them in SSL3 so I assume it happens elsewhere too).

People may say other players are getting criticised as well but let's be honest they aren't getting anywhere near the level of scrutiny that Bravo is and it's becoming a vicious circle. Many will disagree with this but in my opinion the support (or lack of) he's received from city fans (most importantly in the stadium) has been shameful since the day he arrived.

I agree with most of this. I've been quite critical of Bravo myself and do feel that he should be dropped for Willy but he's only part of the problem and I refuse to blame him for things that clearly aren't his fault. We could argue all day as to whether he could've saved Lukaku's shot on Sunday but the initial mistake that led to that goal was nothing to do with Bravo, and he can't be blamed for the other 3 goals IMO.

 

[Rolee]

@mcfcphil great posts, well said.

 

[schfc6]

I dont like Kolarov, havent liked him for 5 years but he has had some good games this season. I don't particularly like Otamendi, I think he is a headless chicken that plays for himself but there is no denying that in some games he has been outstanding.. I think Clichy is finished but over the years we have had decent service out of him. Zabba is not top level anymore but he has been magnificent for us and imo is a City legend. In comparison Bravo hasnt had a single good game since he arrived. That is why he is under more scrutiny. Fans are wondering why we got rid of a perfectly capable keeper for a guy who hasnt yet shown any quality whatsoever. When he actually does something decent, he will be under less scrutiny and split opinion more.

So when we've kept clean sheets he's been crap too? The lad can't win.

There's no doubt he needs to step up, but he's cost us far less points, commited far few howlers than most.

Sunday being the perfect example. He was being slated after their first.
Lukaku lashes it home hard and low from 8 yards.
Is it Clichy's fault fault for giving it away?
Is it YaYa's fault for not tracking his man?
Was it Otamendi's fault for some woeful positioning?

They could all take the blame, all far more culpable than Bravo who'd done everything right in the game up to that point.
But no, the fans round on Bravo.

Granted Bravo hasn't helped himself with a string of World class saves, but he's been slaughtered for simply carrying out his managers instructions.
You could hear shouts of stop fucking about and get rid on his home debut.

 

[cucumberman]

I was going to post that Carragher video. He is completely right, the high line we play inevitably concedes lots of one v one chances, especially when you add in the mistakes our defenders make. Not only does Bravo always look so small in the goal, he seems to take an age to get down to low shots. Lots of goals this year have gone low past him a metre or so to his left or right. Surely him being one of the smallest keepers around he should be agile?

With regards to what you said, I pointed this a week back on his diving stats. He does let in low shots but so did Hart. The problem with Bravo is he lets in shots everywhere not just low ones. Hart on the other hand has the Achilled heel of goals from corners (I presented a stat on this as well)

Look at how aligned the 19 goals were in the 12 yard box. And only 2 shots from the 6 yard box. When strikers get in the 12 yards box they feel they have a good chance of scoring from anywhere, and they obviously do judging from the shots below. Because Bravo anticipates the shots and anticipates them wrongly with wrong dives and wrong positions.

Hart in the same amount of games last year, let in 15 goals, 6 of which were INSIDE the 6 yard box, and a good portion of the ones outside the 6 yard were from corners because he makes an effort to claim them and at times fail.

My old posts should really have been salvaged from the old Bravo thread. I thought it gave an objective foundation for discussion.

 

[OrigamiNinja]

That's the thing - I'm not disagreeing that he should be scrutinised and shoulder some of the blame. It's the disproportionate nature of it and the way it's done that I take issue with.
I think you have hit the nail on the head with "fans are wondering why we got rid of a perfectly good keeper". That's the crux of this but it wasn't Bravo's decision. Nevertheless he's been subjected to jeering and ridicule by his own fans from day one because of it.

Is it disproportionate if a player hasn't had a good game in half a season? Look at the abuse the likes of Yaya, Silva and Zabba get even after all they have done for this club. If they are open to criticism then you can bet your life on Bravo being open to it.

Re Hart, a lot of fans (myself included) understood the reason for replacing Hart with Bravo, I didnt think the keeper position was a priority, I would have rather seen full back positions strengthened but I understood it nonetheless. With Bravo we expected to see a keeper who was as capable a shot-stopper as Hart but someone who was far superior with his feet, what we have got instead is a keeper who doesn't save anything and whose impact on the side with his feet is negligible (not really his fault, poor defenders etc). So to begin with it probably wasn't a Hart v Bravo issue with most fans but as he continues to perform at such a low level, it feels like it is becoming more and more that way.

 

[OrigamiNinja]

So when we've kept clean sheets he's been crap too? The lad can't win.

There's no doubt he needs to step up, but he's cost us far less points, commited far few howlers than most.

Sunday being the perfect example. He was being slated after their first.
Lukaku lashes it home hard and low from 8 yards.
Is it Clichy's fault fault for giving it away?
Is it YaYa's fault for not tracking his man?
Was it Otamendi's fault for some woeful positioning?

They could all take the blame, all far more culpable than Bravo who'd done everything right in the game up to that point.
But no, the fans round on Bravo.

Granted Bravo hasn't helped himself with a string of World class saves, but he's been slaughtered for simply carrying out his managers instructions.
You could hear shouts of stop fucking about and get rid on his home debut.

How many clean sheets have we kept because of Bravo? He hasnt made a single decent save in half a season, that is why he is getting abuse and the abuse wont stop until he shows why we invested £16m in him. He wont show this by making 5 yard square passes to a full back.

As for who was to blame for the 1st, they were all culpable and they have all received negativity on this very forum but as I stated in my previous post, they all have some previous with the club where they have done some good. Bravo doesnt have any.

 

[schfc6]

The bloke was getting ironic jeers from his own fans from pretty much the start of his career with us.
He's getting the overwhelming criticism for City's failings because he isn't pulling off world class saves - given the other glaring problems we have that's completely disproportionate.
We played well for 25 minutes against Everton and it was all due to keeping the ball and playing it out from the back - something Bravo played a significant part in.
But it isn't his fault we miss three or four guilt edged chances. It isn't his fault clichy gives the ball away twice. It isn't his fault that Otamendi stands around ball watching. But he gets the blame for not saving a shot from lukaku that's blasted past him from 12 yards.
Carragher said "de gea would have saved that". Well actually in the first six months at united when he was getting used to a new team and new league he couldn't catch a cold. He made far, far worse mistakes than Bravo has made.
Bravo isn't faultless - I'm not suggesting for a second that is - but it's the disproportionate nature of the critcism he's getting that's a bit of a joke. He's becoming scapegoat because people would rather blame him than blame Guardiola for the fact we play out from the back at all costs. People would rather blame him than blame guardiola for getting rid of Joe Hart.

Bravo has been on a hiding to nothing since the day he joined. Has he performed to a high level? No. But I'm pretty sure moans and groans in the stadium every time he plays the ball out don't help. I doubt jeering when he catches the ball help his confidence. I'm sure sporadic boos when his name is read out don't help (I hear them in SSL3 so I assume it happens elsewhere too).

People may say other players are getting criticised as well but let's be honest they aren't getting anywhere near the level of scrutiny that Bravo is and it's becoming a vicious circle. Many will disagree with this but in my opinion the support (or lack of) he's received from city fans (most importantly in the stadium) has been shameful since the day he arrived.

Excatly as I see it. The lad is a little off form. Has NEVER had any support from some fans and was having his keeping scrutinised from day one.
After one game his goalkeeping was being questioned. The lad has an exceptional career behind him. All ignored. He's playing out from the back just as he's being asked to do by the best manager in the World, yet us football geniuses are questioning it Everytime it happens. Pretty much from day one.

He's been questioned for not making saves from shots he's not faced.

He had no chance for the first two Sunday, so let's say he saves the last two one on ones, let's say he's not fouled against Burnley, and we keep a clean sheet. Is he all of a sudden a great keeper?

We've conceded from one corner and he was arguably fouled for that.

He's getting the blame for far too much. As David James has said, as I suspect those in charge will think, he's not half as culpable as reactionary fans and story needing media would like to believe.

I suspect he may be taken out of the firing line, given a break. But if fans think Willy or another keeper for that matter would be saving our arses after these fuck ups, they're going to be disappointed. I loved Joe, I have always had time for Caballero. But either in goals Sunday we'd have still been 2-0 down.

 

[Bill]

Excatly as I see it. The lad is a little off form. Has NEVER had any support from some fans and was having his keeping scrutinised from day one.
After one game his goalkeeping was being questioned. The lad has an exceptional career behind him. All ignored. He's playing out from the back just as he's being asked to do by the best manager in the World, yet us football geniuses are questioning it Everytime it happens. Pretty much from day one.

He's been questioned for not making saves from shots he's not faced.

He had no chance for the first two Sunday, so let's say he saves the last two one on ones, let's say he's not fouled against Burnley, and we keep a clean sheet. Is he all of a sudden a great keeper?

We've conceded from one corner and he was arguably fouled for that.

He's getting the blame for far too much. As David James has said, as I suspect those in charge will think, he's not half as culpable as reactionary fans and story needing media would like to believe.

I suspect he may be taken out of the firing line, given a break. But if fans think Willy or another keeper for that matter would be saving our arses after these fuck ups, they're going to be disappointed. I loved Joe, I have always had time for Caballero. But either in goals Sunday we'd have still been 2-0 down.

maybe so but at least give us a chance to find out. my guess is Pep wont because we wont lose and he will have egg on his face. he'll have to keep willy in and that wont look good on bravo, which of course is his buy.

 

[schfc6]

How many clean sheets have we kept because of Bravo? He hasnt made a single decent save in half a season, that is why he is getting abuse and the abuse wont stop until he shows why we invested £16m in him. He wont show this by making 5 yard square passes to a full back.

As for who was to blame for the 1st, they were all culpable and they have all received negativity on this very forum but as I stated in my previous post, they all have some previous with the club where they have done some good. Bravo doesnt have any.

He also out side of Barcelona hasn't made a goal creating clanger. Unlike many of his team mates.
The first two Sunday had nothing to do with Bravo. He was being slated.

Are you seriously suggesting any of those you've named have seen the vitriol this lad has?

You could argue all the solid defensive performances we've had are aided by him. I know our manager would.

 

[Paul_Powers_Tash]

He could have done more for their third,but what else did he do wrong Sunday?

How about saving a shot that went into the centre of his net for their first? If you look at Lukaku's body position there was only one place he could have put it. Any keeper worth his position sees this and makes sure he saves it. The second goal would be saved by any decent keeper. Rather than using his feet to spring and give himself the extra reach required, Bravo seems to collapse in a heap. The third goal was a disgrace. If any of the lads in our 7 aside team turned their back on a shot in the way Bravo did he'd get murdered by the team. Instead of making himself as large a target as possible Bravo turned his back on the shot which when it arrived Bravo was side on and in no position to save the shot. The guy just doesn't look like a goalkeeper to me. His positioning, his anticipation and his agility are all well below the required standard.

 

[schfc6]

maybe so but at least give us a chance to find out. my guess is Pep wont because we wont lose and he will have egg on his face. he'll have to keep willy in and that wont look good on bravo, which of course is his buy.

I have great faith in Pep, if he does behave in this way, he needs to be questioned.
Unless of course, unlike us reactionary fans and sensationalistic media, Pep, his coaches & the players aren't quite as quick to blame Bravo.

It's hard to tell, even fans like you who don't like/rate him can't point to howlers from him, but you feel he's not doing enough & is creating problems. Needs to do mote. You're more than entitled to that opinion, and it's not necessarily wrong.
But unless we know how the manager and squad feels, we're all speculating.

I think he's unjustly becoming a bit of a scapegoat, you and others think it's probably fair.

I'd love to know what the team think.

 

[northstandgiveusasong]

Carragher summed up fair and square about Bravo.

How many keepers would have saved those shots, Hart certainly would as would a lot of keepers in the Premier League.

Look, I've tried to stand by Bravo and give him a chance but the stats make very sorry reading and the videos are a real eye opener when slowed down. His positional sense is awful, Chelsea, Leicester, Everton to name but a few.

OK he made a howler v Barca away but to me he is the best goalkeeper in the world with his feet, that's not in doubt but his actual goalkeeping leaves a lot to be desired to say the least.

You have to ask yourself the question, how many points would Hart have saved us this season or not just Hart but any other top keeper? I know what the answer is unfortunately.

 

[cibaman]

.

I suspect he may be taken out of the firing line, given a break. But if fans think Willy or another keeper for that matter would be saving our arses after these fuck ups, they're going to be disappointed. I loved Joe, I have always had time for Caballero. But either in goals Sunday we'd have still been 2-0 down.

I agree we would have been 2-0 down whichever keeper had been in goal. I do think Hart would have got a glove on at least one of the shots even though he probably wouldnt have stopped them from ending up in the net. If he'd got a glove on Lukaku's shot, all and sundry would have been criticising him for "yet another goal conceded on his weak left side".

 

[schfc6]

How about saving a shot that went into the centre of his net for their first? If you look at Lukaku's body position there was only one place he could have put it. Any keeper worth his position sees this and makes sure he saves it. The second goal would be saved by any decent keeper. Rather than using his feet to spring and give himself the extra reach required, Bravo seems to collapse in a heap. The third goal was a disgrace. If any of the lads in our 7 aside team turned their back on a shot in the way Bravo did he'd get murdered by the team. Instead of making himself as large a target as possible Bravo turned his back on the shot which when it arrived Bravo was side on and in no position to save the shot. The guy just doesn't look like a goalkeeper to me. His positioning, his anticipation and his agility are all well below the required standard.

Prime example of desperately trying to find blame.

The first is an excellent and text book finish from Lukaku. Side footed hard & low back where the keeper had come from.
The second, drilled hard and low from the perfect angle right into the side netting. Again text book.

The sensationalist turning back line, that photo is after the ball passes him.

He has faults, but people blaming for the first two are trying to find them.

 

[OrigamiNinja]

He also out side of Barcelona hasn't made a goal creating clanger. Unlike many of his team mates.
The first two Sunday had nothing to do with Bravo. He was being slated.

Are you seriously suggesting any of those you've named have seen the vitriol this lad has?

You could argue all the solid defensive performances we've had are aided by him. I know our manager would.

There has never been a single keeper in the history of the game that hasn't made mistakes, Hart made plenty. Bravo in his defence rarely makes clangers, I have said this time and time again. Carragher also stated this in the video posted a few pages back. The problem isn't glaringly obvious mistakes, its the fact he doesn't save anything. The best keepers make saves that others aren't capable of and typically they do it at a time that allows the team to win/save points. There have been many instances this season (Off the top of my head: Boro, Palace, Chelsea, Everton, there is likely more) where as a fan I am left thinking "That wasnt a glaring error but I would expect my keeper to save that". If you as a Bravo backer have no expectations of this top 5 in the world keeper making those saves then how can he be as good as you think he is?

Yaya has received more abuse than Bravo ever will over the past 2 seasons, despite him arguably being our most influential player ever.

 

[schfc6]

I agree we would have been 2-0 down whichever keeper had been in goal. I do think Hart would have got a glove on at least one of the shots even though he probably wouldnt have stopped them from ending up in the net. If he'd got a glove on Lukaku's shot, all and sundry would have been criticising him for "yet another goal conceded on his weak left side".

If the ball hadn't been from the right, possibly. I don't actually think many of the taller keepers wouldn't have dived for that goal. A bigger keeper moving accross his goal like that simply wouldn't have had the balance.
Not just to defend Bravo, I think that the first two were really good finishes. Excellent in fact.
You could say Bravo is unlucky, or you could say strikers face him with more confidence due to his reputation, hence finish better and more confidently.
De Gea made three saves Sunday that were very tame efforts right at him. Panic from attackers of luck, but he put three saves on the board.

 

[schfc6]

There has never been a single keeper in the history of the game that hasn't made mistakes, Hart made plenty. Bravo in his defence rarely makes clangers, I have said this time and time again. Carragher also stated this in the video posted a few pages back. The problem isn't glaringly obvious mistakes, its the fact he doesn't save anything. The best keepers make saves that others aren't capable of and typically they do it at a time that allows the team to win/save points. There have been many instances this season (Off the top of my head: Boro, Palace, Chelsea, Everton, there is likely more) where as a fan I am left thinking "That wasnt a glaring error but I would expect my keeper to save that". If you as a Bravo backer have no expectations of this top 5 in the world keeper making those saves then how can he be as good as you think he is?

Yaya has received more abuse than Bravo ever will over the past 2 seasons, despite him arguably being our most influential player ever.

I've said he needs to make a few more big saves.

Hopefully they'll come. But his confidence is low and we really are giving up some fucking easy chances.

As for YaYa, his agent and his own conduct have caused that.