Claudio Bravo - 2016/2017 performances (continued)

[cucumberman]

He also out side of Barcelona hasn't made a goal creating clanger. Unlike many of his team mates.
The first two Sunday had nothing to do with Bravo. He was being slated.

Are you seriously suggesting any of those you've named have seen the vitriol this lad has?

You could argue all the solid defensive performances we've had are aided by him. I know our manager would.

No one has denied that his Barca stats should carry him comfortably in our league. But to me comparing La Liga and our league is apples and oranges. His stats for 2 seasons in Barca compared to Hart's last two seasons in City are superior in every way. But this is really irrelevant to us. What we are interested in is his form for City, which is currently not what we have paid for so far. Bravo is not solely to blame, it's how the team has been set up and our need of new CBs.

we cannot ignore that for this season, regardless of his past stats, Bravo is statistically one of the worst performing keepers in the league after every other regular keepers have faced almost the same times of opposition being halfway into the season. We bought Bravo as an upgrade for Hart but we are not getting what we have paid for. He hasn't adapted to the league.

Bravo's stats after 18 appearances
4 clean sheets
23 goals conceded
26 saves
28 successful claims

Hart's after 18 games with us last season
8 clean sheets
16 goals conceded
38 saves
57 successful claims

 

[Rolee]

maybe so but at least give us a chance to find out. my guess is Pep wont because we wont lose and he will have egg on his face. he'll have to keep willy in and that wont look good on bravo, which of course is his buy.

What are you basing this guess on Bill? Has Guardiola showed in the past that he isn't willing to acknowledge a mistake? Genuine questions.

 

[schfc6]

No one has denied that his Barca stats should carry him comfortably in our league. But to me comparing La Liga and our league is apples and oranges. His stats for 2 seasons in Barca compared to Hart's last two seasons in City are superior in every way. But this is really irrelevant to us. What we are interested in is his form for City, which is currently not what we have paid for so far. Bravo is not solely to blame, it's how the team has been set up and our need of new CBs.

we cannot ignore that for this season, regardless of his past stats, Bravo is statistically one of the worst performing keepers in the league after every other regular keepers have faced almost the same times of opposition being halfway into the season. We bought Bravo as an upgrade for Hart but we are not getting what we have paid for. He hasn't adapted to the league.

Bravo's stats after 18 appearances
4 clean sheets
23 goals conceded
26 saves
28 successful claims

Hart's after 18 games with us last season
8 clean sheets
16 goals conceded
38 saves
57 successful claims

Could you please put those stats in some sort of context. Perhaps ease of chance? Defensive pressure on the attacker?
We are giving up incredible clear chances.

Someone put stats up the other day. Similar, save percentage to shots faced.

I countered with. Arsenal at home, Liverpool away this season to last.
This season we conceded two chances in those fixtures. Both scored. 0% save ratio for Bravo.
Last season we conceded nine chances in the same fixtures. 5 scored. 44% save ratio for Hart.

Which stats are better for the team?

After our dismal game I watched the rags, De Gea probably made 4 saves. All save you our I would have saved, perhaps Bravo too. So he save 80% of shots faced. He didn't have a good game. He just had a standard game.

As people are pointing out, he's conceding a high percentage of shots faced, yet we're not facing many shots. So we as a team are not giving up many chances but those we are giving up are pretty fucking easy.

 

[Bill]

I have great faith in Pep, if he does behave in this way, he needs to be questioned.
Unless of course, unlike us reactionary fans and sensationalistic media, Pep, his coaches & the players aren't quite as quick to blame Bravo.

It's hard to tell, even fans like you who don't like/rate him can't point to howlers from him, but you feel he's not doing enough & is creating problems. Needs to do mote. You're more than entitled to that opinion, and it's not necessarily wrong.
But unless we know how the manager and squad feels, we're all speculating.

I think he's unjustly becoming a bit of a scapegoat, you and others think it's probably fair.

I'd love to know what the team think.

he is being singled out and I agree that others contribute to our losses. the reason for the pelters he's getting is that in his position he's by far our worst player, that's quite something when you look at our defence.even kolorov does somethings right some of the time. this guy is useless in everything about keeping goal.

I just want him left out to prove a point one way or the other. is it him(I think so) or is it the people in front of him. just bloody give it a try.
what doesn't bode well for bravo is willy was in goal for two of our best displays, barca home and west ham away.

your last line about what the team think is spot on, my guess they would welcome willy in a heartbeat.

 

[Bill]

What are you basing this guess on Bill? Has Guardiola showed in the past that he isn't willing to acknowledge a mistake? Genuine questions.

of course it is only a guess, but if he is a true football man he could see from game one bravo wouldn't be right for us. I could and I'm just a pleb who sits in the stands. by game 5 it was obvious, now 20 games in his selection is football suicide.

 

[cucumberman]

Could you please put those stats in some sort of context. Perhaps ease of chance? Defensive pressure on the attacker?
We are giving up incredible clear chances.

Someone put stats up the other day. Similar, save percentage to shots faced.

Yes I posted defensive stats in the old Bravo thread. It's gone now but it showed the defending from last season's first 17 games and this season's weren't any different. If anything, Otamendi's defending has significantly improved from last year which shows in him being top 5 in the European leagues defender ranking, and his currently inclusion in the European leagues top XI.

I countered with. Arsenal at home, Liverpool away this season to last.
This season we conceded two chances in those fixtures. Both scored. 0% save ratio for Bravo.
Last season we conceded nine chances in the same fixtures. 5 scored. 44% save ratio for Hart.

No. Stats doesn't work this way. We cannot based observation on such a small sample of two games. We apply the saturation point approach where we use the average of as many games. The more observations we use the better our average. We are dealing with ratio after all.

Which stats are better for the team?

After our dismal game I watched the rags, De Gea probably made 4 saves. All save you our I would have saved, perhaps Bravo too. So he save 80% of shots faced. He didn't have a good game. He just had a standard game.

As people are pointing out, he's conceding a high percentage of shots faced, yet we're not facing many shots. So we as a team are not giving up many chances but those we are giving up are pretty fucking easy.

I will get back with some de gea stats but one game doesn't make a correlation. It is when there is a pattern in games that we get to understand better. If we look at performance graphs (Hart with 50 range, Bravo with 100 range) Bravo has a more consistent average line, while Hart has spikes in his denoting man of the match level performances. Already in Torino he has won 2 MOTM but Torino of course is a different kettle of fish.

I will also get back on if our chances conceded are easy. I highly doubt it because the theory that we are receiving different chances compared to other teams in the league is Farfetched.

 

[mosssideblue]

The bloke was getting ironic jeers from his own fans from pretty much the start of his career with us.
He's getting the overwhelming criticism for City's failings because he isn't pulling off world class saves - given the other glaring problems we have that's completely disproportionate.
We played well for 25 minutes against Everton and it was all due to keeping the ball and playing it out from the back - something Bravo played a significant part in.
But it isn't his fault we miss three or four guilt edged chances. It isn't his fault clichy gives the ball away twice. It isn't his fault that Otamendi stands around ball watching. But he gets the blame for not saving a shot from lukaku that's blasted past him from 12 yards.
Carragher said "de gea would have saved that". Well actually in the first six months at united when he was getting used to a new team and new league he couldn't catch a cold. He made far, far worse mistakes than Bravo has made.
Bravo isn't faultless - I'm not suggesting for a second that is - but it's the disproportionate nature of the critcism he's getting that's a bit of a joke. He's becoming scapegoat because people would rather blame him than blame Guardiola for the fact we play out from the back at all costs. People would rather blame him than blame guardiola for getting rid of Joe Hart.

Bravo has been on a hiding to nothing since the day he joined. Has he performed to a high level? No. But I'm pretty sure moans and groans in the stadium every time he plays the ball out don't help. I doubt jeering when he catches the ball help his confidence. I'm sure sporadic boos when his name is read out don't help (I hear them in SSL3 so I assume it happens elsewhere too).

People may say other players are getting criticised as well but let's be honest they aren't getting anywhere near the level of scrutiny that Bravo is and it's becoming a vicious circle. Many will disagree with this but in my opinion the support (or lack of) he's received from city fans (most importantly in the stadium) has been shameful since the day he arrived.

Top post mate, well said.

 

[schfc6]

Yes I posted defensive stats in the old Bravo thread. It's gone now but it showed the defending from last season's first 17 games and this season's weren't any different. If anything, Otamendi's defending has significantly improved from last year which shows in him being top 5 in the European leagues defender ranking, and his currently inclusion in the European leagues top XI.



No. Stats doesn't work this way. We cannot based observation on such a small sample of two games. We apply the saturation point approach where we use the average of as many games. The more observations we use the better our average. We are dealing with ratio after all.



I will get back with some de gea stats but one game doesn't make a correlation. It is when there is a pattern in games that we get to understand better. If we look at performance graphs (Hart with 50 range, Bravo with 100 range) Bravo has a more consistent average line, while Hart has spikes in his denoting man of the match level performances. Already in Torino he has won 2 MOTM but Torino of course is a different kettle of fish.

I will also get back on if our chances conceded are easy. I highly doubt it because the theory that we are receiving different chances compared to other teams in the league is Farfetched.

Before Sunday we conceded an average of just 2.2 shots on target per game since Bravo's inclusion at the swamp.
He's saved roughly half those.
But as I say games like Arsenal, Liverpool his save ratio was zero.

Stats don't put into context ease of chance. Let's take the league's best keepers, how many one on ones and one touch finished have they saved/conceded?

I'm happy to maintain he needs to make a few more saves, but due to us conceding just 2.2 shots on target per game it's going to be difficult to get those stats up. More importantly his confidence up.
Against the lesser sides, we controle possession and they get nowt, he can't improve.
Play the better sides, Liverpool, Arsenal et al, we give up just one chance, and the keeper has no chance.

If we were being as critical as possible.

He could have saved.
2 vs Everton.
1 vs Chelsea.
1vs Burnley.
1 vs Leicester.

So if he'd have been the perfect keeper, had the season of his life he'd have saved just 5 more shots.

Stats for keeping and defending need so much context.
Clean sheets = good defence. That's about the only relevant stat.

As you stats can prove anything. Otamendi has been at fault for more goals than Bravo.
His defending has also led to far more opportunties than Bravo.

Yet he's ranked so highly.

I actually like Otamendi by the way!

 

[Mike D]

Not since the dark days of when Ball flogged Coton to the rags and brought in the useless Eike Immel have I ever seen us shoot ourselves in the foot quite so spectaculary. We had one of the best goal keepers in the prem the best English goal keeper by a country mile and we swap him for the worst. It just beggers belief how Pep is to arrogant to see this. A goal keepers primary job is to save goals not play as an out field player.

 

[RayCTID]

Bravo isn't blameless but it is still down to the outfield players (and to Guardiola to some extent) to do a better job in protecting him. He had the likes of Busquets, Mascherano and Pique as part of the defensive unit in front of him at Barcelona (he did play a part as well). On top of that their attacking side helped by putting away the chances created.

 

[bondsman]

It's from the same distance as a penalty with plenty of pace,he had gone to the near post because Mirallas had got in behind on that side, when it was squared he moved back central and couldn't shift his body weight to get down in time, happens all the time even to the best of them.

And every week to him

 

[Bill]

Not since the dark days of when Ball flogged Coton to the rags and brought in the useless Eike Immel have I ever seen us shoot ourselves in the foot quite so spectaculary. We had one of the best goal keepers in the prem the best English goal keeper by a country mile and we swap him for the worst. It just beggers belief how Pep is to arrogant to see this. A goal keepers primary job is to save goals not play as an out field player.

absolutely.

 

[jaiguruKun]

Just watched a couple of videos entitled "Bravo's best saves" on youtube from the last two seasons. Pretty much every single one was straight at him and there wasn't one save I would describe as world-class. I know it's normally dangerous to judge any player from youtube but I would have thought it to be much easier to compile a keeper's best saves on to a video.

 

[Rolee]

Just watched a couple of videos entitled "Bravo's best saves" on youtube from the last two seasons. Pretty much every single one was straight at him and there wasn't one save I would describe as world-class. I know it's normally dangerous to judge any player from youtube but I would have thought it to be much easier to compile a keeper's best saves on to a video.

Was this one of them?



or maybe this one?

 

[jared]

People calling him a clown in this forum and calling themselves city fans. Disgraceful

 

[Bill]

People calling him a clown in this forum and calling themselves city fans. Disgraceful

you have to feel for him. he'll know he hasn't cut it.

 

[kaz7]

People calling him a clown in this forum and calling themselves city fans. Disgraceful

I agree calling him names doesn't help any
I want someone to explain how you dive but end up on the floor where your feet were,perhaps he would be braver if he had a crash mat with him

 

[Rolee]

I agree calling him names doesn't help any
I want someone to explain how you dive but end up on the floor where your feet were,perhaps he would be braver if he had a crash mat with him

I explained that yesterday Kar, it's shifting body weight, you're going one way to cover an angle and the ball is hit across you it is difficult to shift your body weight to dive the other way. Not saying he shouldn't do better but that's why it happens.

 

[Uncle Wally One Ball]

People calling him a clown in this forum and calling themselves city fans. Disgraceful

He is terrible, we are allowed to express honestly held views

 

[kaz7]

I explained that yesterday Kar, it's shifting body weight, you're going one way to cover an angle and the ball is hit across you it is difficult to shift your body weight to dive the other way. Not saying he shouldn't do better but that's why it happens.

Thanks,he does it all the time which is a surprising lack of technique for his age and experience and i guess he won't be getting any better now