“The work of God”?

Assuming there were eyewitness accounts of miracles, why would you consider them trustworthy? There are eyewitness accounts of miracles in the present day, by groups of people. Go to India and hear the stories of magic gurus. Or speak to hundreds of witnesses at megachurches in America who swear that they saw a disabled person healed at the hands of a miracle healer. Why would the miracles of Jesus, even if we had contemporary firsthand accounts of it, be any more reliable?

Exactly. Even assuming they were honest about what they experienced and didn't make the whole thing up. You can't discount the presence of blurred perceptions- an audio-visual hallucination experienced after days deprived of water, food or sleep. Not to mention the possibility of a charismatic cult leader warping the minds of their followers.

These accounts from the pre-scientific world come from a time when the supernatural was an easy explanation for things unknown. Knowldge of mental health conditions or psychological explanations of the self-reinforcing groupthink of religious cults between then and now is incomparable.
 
Because several of His Apostles went to their deaths, often in agony and still refused to renounce it.
History is literally full of people willing to die for their religious beliefs. Why is this any different? Why are the people who died in the Waco siege in 1993 not evidence that their religious beliefs were correct? Or the 39 people who died in the Heaven's Gate mass suicide? Or any number of other examples that actually occurred in living memory? But perhaps that's the answer. They occurred at a time where we had the technology to see these things for the shams they are.
 
"Eventually writes it down"?
So if I 'recalled' events passed on to me from 50 years ago and you wrote them down now, they'd be factual, and not some detailed bollox I'd made up?
They may be, may not.

My point is that it doesn’t mean they’re not correct because that’s how they were passed on, I am not claiming it automatically makes it true.
 
History is literally full of people willing to die for their religious beliefs. Why is this any different? Why are the people who died in the Waco siege in 1993 not evidence that their religious beliefs were correct? Or the 39 people who died in the Heaven's Gate mass suicide? Or any number of other examples that actually occurred in living memory? But perhaps that's the answer. They occurred at a time where we had the technology to see these things for the shams they are.
The change in behaviour is key.

Peter bricked it when challenged before Christ died and saved himself by denying Jesus three times. After he saw the Risen Christ he refused to renounce him and was crucified upside down.

You could say he lost his marbles but then others also suffered the same fate, so it’s unlikely.

Faith is a personal thing really and I don’t blame you for not believing it, I spent 27 years not believing in God.
 
Exactly. Even assuming they were honest about what they experienced and didn't make the whole thing up. You can't discount the presence of blurred perceptions- an audio-visual hallucination experienced after days deprived of water, food or sleep. Not to mention the possibility of a charismatic cult leader warping the minds of their followers.

These accounts from the pre-scientific world come from a time when the supernatural was an easy explanation for things unknown. Knowldge of mental health conditions or psychological explanations of the self-reinforcing groupthink of religious cults between then and now is incomparable.
There are thousands of people in this crowd here that will tell you they saw a miracle:



What I saw was a fairly average member of the Magic Circle. But half a million people showed up to this guy's funeral and a good number of those would tell you that he's a living god. He also claimed to be born of a virgin, which is not a particularly original claim for a spiritual leader.
 
Faith is a personal thing really and I don’t blame you for not believing it, I spent 27 years not believing in God.
Well this is why I find religious converts so fascinating, because I've never met one who is able to describe the process particularly well. I get people who are a religion because that's what they grew up as, because I know that that's not really based on evidence, it's based on social factors. They might make arguments that their religion is based on factual things, but this is always an attempt to reverse engineer a logical argument for something that they believe or profess for other reasons.

When I hear religious converts talking about it, you often see a lot of the same scrambling for evidence, but when you actually drill down into it, there's usually a social reason. Some sort of psychological change that happened in the person's life rather than that they just happened to be reading up on it for a while. That's why people get to a certain point in the debate and say "well it's faith," which of course you could say from the very start of course. So it'd be interesting to know how much of the evidence as you see it would have to be stripped away before you no longer believed it.
 
Well this is why I find religious converts so fascinating, because I've never met one who is able to describe the process particularly well. I get people who are a religion because that's what they grew up as, because I know that that's not really based on evidence, it's based on social factors. They might make arguments that their religion is based on factual things, but this is always an attempt to reverse engineer a logical argument for something that they believe or profess for other reasons.

When I hear religious converts talking about it, you often see a lot of the same scrambling for evidence, but when you actually drill down into it, there's usually a social reason. Some sort of psychological change that happened in the person's life rather than that they just happened to be reading up on it for a while. That's why people get to a certain point in the debate and say "well it's faith," which of course you could say from the very start of course. So it'd be interesting to know how much of the evidence as you see it would have to be stripped away before you no longer believed it.
That’s not me.

The most vivid dream I’ve ever had is what prompted me to start reading the Gospels and when I got to the end of John, it was kind of like a light switch.

Still took me weeks and weeks to get to that point, it doesn’t happen overnight and it’s very difficult.

You start by contemplating it in your head and by the time you do change, you feel it in your chest, like a feeling of being in love.

I was completely atheist until it happened.

Sounds mental I know and I’ll be called a loon but that’s the truth.
 
I’ve just posted them to SWP mate.

It’s not an attack against atheists and atheism, it’s just that if you don’t believe in a higher power,
Edited for accuracy. The other things you say I believe in are not true.
 
Yes. Me too. Brought up in a strongly Christian home, but started to ask questions and, about aged 16, realized I had been cruelly lied to.
I remember the day I was sat cross-legged in assembly at Primary School, I was 8, and when they were reading from the Bible, even at that age, I looked around, looked at the teachers, looked up at the cross on the wall... and I thought “this is a load of rubbish, this”.

Religion becomes less believable to me by the year, to the point where I am a convinced atheist. And a strong believer that, if we are to honour something at the times of the festivals, we should ditch the deities and gods and just appreciate what is really being worshipped by religions - the Sun and the seasons. In 2020, we don’t need the deities and gods. We’ve advanced as a species without needing them.

Looking back through history at older religions than Christianity, there were Sun gods, miracle births and resurrections of gods. Christian stories and Saints are just taken from past religions and put out there as “new”(at the time).

John Moles from The Acts Of The Apostles and early Christianity said the Dionysian cult influenced early Christianity, and especially the way that Christians understood themselves as a "new" religion centred around a saviour deity. In particular, the account of Christian origins in the Acts of the Apostles was heavily influenced by Euripides’ The Bacchae. Moles also suggests that Paul may have partially based his account of the Holy Communion/Lord’s Supper on the ritual meals performed by members of the Dionysian cult.

There’s little originality in any religions, and Christianity (as did Judaism and Islam) just copied bits from here, there and anywhere to the point where it’s pretty much just a plagiarised religion.

Just some of the hundreds, probably thousands, of examples:

- Amun was an Egyptian god, it’s where “amen” at the end of Christian prayers comes from. The parallels between the Christian religion and the is the Ancient Egyptian religion are huge.

- Ra was the Egyptian god of the Sun. He had a halo above his head representing the Sun. He was called the creator.

- Horus was the Egyptian god of the sky. Born on the Winter Solstice. His rival was Set who was the god of disorder and violence. They fought (or more precisely, shagged!) in the Contendings of Horus and Set each day and Horus won every morning while Set won every night. This may be the oldest religious thought of all, probably going back tens of thousands of years: light v dark, day v night, Summer v Winter, good v evil, god v devil.

- Osiris was the Egyptian god of death, resurrection and afterlife. He died when the crops were sown and resurrected when they sprouted.

- Tiwaz was the Sun god of the Luwians, he was the descendent of the sky god Dyeus. He was referred to as “Father”.

- Apollo was a Greek god of light and healing, son of the sky god Zeus.

- Helios (Heliopolis was where Ra the Egyptian Sun god was worshipped, traditions simply being passed down through generations with evolving names) was the Greek Sun god, thought to be the personification of the Sun itself.

- Sol was the Roman Sun god, birthday celebrated on Sol Invictus on 25th December (as the Roman calendar just had the Winter Solstice on that date since that’s when the Sun starts to move up in the sky by 1°, they didn’t note the Solstice as the shortest day).

- Zoroastra was Persian prophet, his priesthood started at age 7, he started his ministry at age 30 where he was spreading the word about Asha and Druj. He emphasised individual judgment, heaven and hell, the resurrection of the body, the final judgement, everlasting life for the reunited soul and body (Christianity); praying five times a day, covering the head during prayer, and of Thamud and Iram of the Pillars (Islam).

- Dionysus was the Greek god of wine. Had festivals associated to him on the Winter Soltice and Vernal Equinox. Wine was the representation of Dionysus on Earth, his blood. He appeared before Pentheus charged with claiming divinity, he died and was resurrected - in part similar to Osiris - with the sowing of the vines and was resurrected when they bloomed.

- Attis was the Phrygian god of agriculture. Born on Winter Solstice. Died and resurrected.

- Aion was a Greek deity associated with the Zodiac. He was born of a Virgin on the Winter Solstice.

- Dusares was a holy child of Petra, born of the virgin goddess Kore on the Winter Solstice.

- Mithra (the ancient Persian religious figure, seen much earlier than in the later 200CE Roman Mithraism - but even then there were Mediterranean coins depicting Mithra around 128BCE long before Jesus’ time) is who Apollo is supposed to be based on. Born on the Winter Solstice. Said to be all seeing and hearing and was a mediator between God and man.

- Uti was the Sun god of the Akkadians, Assyrians and Babylonians. Was all seeing, the enforcer of Devine justice and aided those in distress. He was the twin of the goddess of heaven.

- Shapash was the Canaanite goddess of the Sun, daughter of El who was the father of all Canaanite gods. She was the main Sun deity in the region of Jesus centuries before Jesus. Jews stoned anyone found worshipping Shapash and said Sun worship, as well as bowing to the East (where the Sun rises), instead of worshiping their theistic god, was punishable. It is forbidden in the Tanakh and the same thing was adopted by the Bible which replaces all words meaning the Sun with things like “the light” and eventually Jesus who, like Helios and Amun-Ra, is just the personification of the Sun.

Here is a link to an article comparing Jesus/Christianity to more ancient Buddha, Zoroastrianism, and Krishna: https://www.researchgate.net/profil...-of-a-Route-Map.pdf?origin=publication_detail

If looked at in particular detail, from deities from all around the world, the list would be endless.

Throughout the ancient world, each region and town seemed to create their own deities and gods within the main religion. Some of them spread more widely, some became the main gods, some became religions in their own right. Jesus is just another one of these among many. His myth is no more important or special, or believable, than any of them. There is nothing that I’ve ever read that has convinced me the myth wasn’t just another personification of the Sun, just like Ra, just like Helios, just like all of them. Even if he did exist as a person (nothing has convinced me he did), he was just a person, and all the myths attached to him were plagiarised from the hundreds of Sun deity stories that went before him.

Same with his “Father” in all this. In the Jesus myth, his father was god. In other Sun god myths, their father was the god of the sky. The Sun is just the son of the sky, with the sky personified as the father of the son/Sun.

This is only touching on “god” and “Jesus”. You could look through all the Christian (and Judaism and Islam) stories and find them being exact copies of older religions’ stories. And it’s the same with Christian Saints, all adopted and amended from older religions on the seasonal festivals that were also stolen from older religions, usually with the words “the true...” “the Devine...” “the one...” as if to emphasise their importance over what they were copied from.
 
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