“The work of God”?

I have tried for several days not to become angry and have so far been successful, frustrated is how I’d describe my last post but I’ll try to cool it.

I am acknowledging that there weren’t necessarily present writers, alive when Christ was, who wrote about Him when Jesus was a man on Earth, well I admit that nothing has been found dated from 33AD or earlier, however I am merely saying that it not only happens with ancient figures but is common place.

I’ve just opened my Bible and have gone to Corinthians 1. You acknowledged this letter was written in 57AD:

So there we have a letter written in 57AD, discussing past “scripture” and “Gospel” being preached.

If the accuracy is true, that Mark is written around 70AD and it really is the first, then the Gospels have clearly got their information from “scripture” and accounts written many years earlier.

Paul is talking past tense too, he’s saying he has already preached scripture to these people, so let’s say a handful of months, maybe years earlier. This could have been only 20 years after the event. But he’s preaching scripture, where has that come from? Well obviously we don’t know but let’s presume he didn’t write it and he would have had to get a manuscript of such scripture, then it throws it even more into the past. He does clearly say “which I have passed on to you”, which means he received it and didn’t create it.

It wouldn’t be unreasonable to presume the scripture was written in a a very short space of time after 33AD. Maybe the 40’s or maybe even the 30’s.

As you know, the Gospels are a compilation of accounts and sources, well supposedly in your opinion, but they are relying on scripture that had been written many years earlier, to then compile it.

Paul is reminding people in 57AD that they know of the resurrection and they’ve seen the scriptures.

He’s also very much talking about the earthly Christ, who was “crucified” and “buried”.

Of course there are discrepancies to the stories but Matthew and Luke are thought to have had more sources to get information from. It’s also thought that certain sources may have placed themselves in a more significant role, such as who witnessed the Risen Christ. But what all or nearly all sources point to, is that many people saw Him and Paul, is actually calling himself the least of the Apostles. Why would he do that if he was out for personal gain in all of this?

Let’s not forget with Paul discussing the resurrection, we have a man who lived at the same time as Christ and then wrote about him, also claiming to see Him risen. Although yes, he wrote about him after his death.

Every time new evidence is found and every time you look deeper, it always leads to the result looking like the Gospels were biographical, even if you don’t believe the miracles or divinity.
i get all that but the problem i have with paul and his letters and only 7 of them can be attributed to him and they have allegedly been meddled with over time.
is that despite all the fantastical deeds and events described in the gospels paul mentions none of them in any detail, its as if they are two different entities
i would of thought of someone who could of been around at the time those sort of events would have in the forefront of his mind and relayed to the masses but he doesn't
i can see you've argued it but i see it differently

we are not seeing eye to eye over the earthly jesus and we've not even started on the divine one ;-)
 
Religion Politics and Football you will never convert people to your way of thinking so it’s best to disagree and move on. Life is to short to get stressed out accept your beliefs and fuck everyone else, here ends today’s lesson on life.
 
Religion Politics and Football you will never convert people to your way of thinking so it’s best to disagree and move on. Life is to short to get stressed out accept your beliefs and fuck everyone else, here ends today’s lesson on life.
I used to think that. Until I realised I myself ‘converted’ from what I’d been taught as a kid into the Agnostic/Athiest I am today and know that many educated people are converting away from religion and deities.

I also used to think let bygones be bygones, until as an adult you realise religion and religious belief provides breeding grounds for ongoing and likely endless wars and atrocities. On top of that, it is then being given preferential treatment/tax breaks etc and at the same time is a pre-requisite of positions of government (power) in certain countries.

To paraphrase Hitchens, I don’t mind people playing with their religious fantasy toys, but don’t attempt to make me play with those toys.

I’ll leave religion alone the day it leaves me alone. Can’t see it happening any time soon.
 
i get all that but the problem i have with paul and his letters and only 7 of them can be attributed to him and they have allegedly been meddled with over time.
is that despite all the fantastical deeds and events described in the gospels paul mentions none of them in any detail, its as if they are two different entities
i would of thought of someone who could of been around at the time those sort of events would have in the forefront of his mind and relayed to the masses but he doesn't
i can see you've argued it but i see it differently

we are not seeing eye to eye over the earthly jesus and we've not even started on the divine one ;-)
I’m not going to convince you Jesus is the divine God the Son of the Holy Trinity, I know that isn’t going to happen on here.

What I want to do is to convince you, and I may fail, that the literature in the New Testament is compelling enough to at least suggest that the life of Jesus was a preacher, claiming divinity, crucified for his claims for blasphemy. And that whilst you won’t believe in the miracles or resurrection, both are consistent in general terms, with what all first century Christians thought.

Now, back to the Corinthians... It’s important to remember the context. Paul isn’t writing a book, he isn’t writing a description of Jesus’s life, he’s writing a letter to followers to remind them of their faith and to give them instruction.

Within Corinthians 1, it mentions both miracles and the resurrection, which is the greatest of them all within Christianity, in fact, you don’t need walking on water or the feeding of the five thousand, to have Christianity, the cornerstone is the resurrection, which was promised before His death, and whilst you don’t believe it, it’s consistent across all Christian literature in the first century.

I haven’t seen any evidence and this is actually the first time I’ve seen it claimed Corinthians is corrupted and tampered with. Of course translations may slightly change the meaning of the odd word but generally speaking, there’s not much doubt that Paul wrote the letters.

There is however, a lot of doubt with Peter in the NT, and who wrote it. Some claimed it was the Apostle St Peter but even I am sceptical myself, I am telling you this to show that I won’t just believe something because it’s found it’s way into the Bible.

Anyway, we can continue to chat about this but I sense you’re winding down your interest in doing so, so I am happy to agree to disagree and move on.
 
I used to think that. Until I realised I myself ‘converted’ from what I’d been taught as a kid into the Agnostic/Athiest I am today and know that many educated people are converting away from religion and deities.

I also used to think let bygones be bygones, until as an adult you realise religion and religious belief provides breeding grounds for ongoing and likely endless wars and atrocities. On top of that, it is then being given preferential treatment/tax breaks etc and at the same time is a pre-requisite of positions of government (power) in certain countries.

To paraphrase Hitchens, I don’t mind people playing with their religious fantasy toys, but don’t attempt to make me play with those toys.

I’ll leave religion alone the day it leaves me alone. Can’t see it happening any time soon.
When was the last time a Christian didn’t leave you alone?

How many wars have Christianity caused recently?

The 20th century is riddled with 100’s of millions of deaths under atheist regimes. In fact atheist regimes, that impose atheism, have a habit of committing genocide against their own people.

You’re not being mithered by Christians in 2020 Britain, don’t talk wet, and the Anglican and Catholic Church here isn’t making the money you think.

Repeating Hitchens doesn’t really get you anywhere unfortunately. The man played the greatest game of mental gymnastics ever in claiming the state atheism in the USSR, was actually belief in God.

He himself was on the atheist gravy train and I’m a fan of his writing ability.
 
When was the last time a Christian didn’t leave you alone?

How many wars have Christianity caused recently?

The 20th century is riddled with 100’s of millions of deaths under atheist regimes. In fact atheist regimes, that impose atheism, have a habit of committing genocide against their own people.

You’re not being mithered by Christians in 2020 Britain, don’t talk wet, and the Anglican and Catholic Church here isn’t making the money you think.

Repeating Hitchens doesn’t really get you anywhere unfortunately. The man played the greatest game of mental gymnastics ever in claiming the state atheism in the USSR, was actually belief in God.

He himself was on the atheist gravy train and I’m a fan of his writing ability.
When was the last time a Christian didn’t leave you alone?

How many wars have Christianity caused recently?

The 20th century is riddled with 100’s of millions of deaths under atheist regimes. In fact atheist regimes, that impose atheism, have a habit of committing genocide against their own people.

You’re not being mithered by Christians in 2020 Britain, don’t talk wet, and the Anglican and Catholic Church here isn’t making the money you think.

Repeating Hitchens doesn’t really get you anywhere unfortunately. The man played the greatest game of mental gymnastics ever in claiming the state atheism in the USSR, was actually belief in God.

He himself was on the atheist gravy train and I’m a fan of his writing ability.
I said I’d leave religion alone when it left me alone, not referring to Christianity specifically. I guess it didn’t take you long to develop a Christian persecution complex? ;-)

Nevertheless, Christianity, Judaism, Islam...they’re all spots on the same arse. If you don’t think religion is having direct and indirect effects on everyday life, then your level of delusion is higher than I thought. Are you sure that dream of yours wasn’t in fact a stroke? You might want to get it checked out.

Security checks, tax breaks, places of worship being exempt from lockdown restrictions etc etc. No effect my arse.
 
I’m not going to convince you Jesus is the divine God the Son of the Holy Trinity, I know that isn’t going to happen on here.
that's true
What I want to do is to convince you, and I may fail, that the literature in the New Testament is compelling enough to at least suggest that the life of Jesus was a preacher, claiming divinity, crucified for his claims for blasphemy. And that whilst you won’t believe in the miracles or resurrection, both are consistent in general terms, with what all first century Christians thought.
there is no doubt its the story of preacher claiming divinity etc, but that doesn't make it true nor divine
Now, back to the Corinthians... It’s important to remember the context. Paul isn’t writing a book, he isn’t writing a description of Jesus’s life, he’s writing a letter to followers to remind them of their faith and to give them instruction.
that's all well and good but its a bit so what
Within Corinthians 1, it mentions both miracles and the resurrection, which is the greatest of them all within Christianity, in fact, you don’t need walking on water or the feeding of the five thousand, to have Christianity, the cornerstone is the resurrection, which was promised before His death, and whilst you don’t believe it, it’s consistent across all Christian literature in the first century.
it certainly does but no reference to the one in the gospels which is my issue with pauls letters, he really should do
in fact its astounding he doesn't
he talks like the man in the gospels doesn't exist which is curious to say the least

I haven’t seen any evidence and this is actually the first time I’ve seen it claimed Corinthians is corrupted and tampered with. Of course translations may slightly change the meaning of the odd word but generally speaking, there’s not much doubt that Paul wrote the letters.
i'll get back to you on that, i've seen it somewhere but just can't my finger on it, i've already agreed 7 are pauls work
There is however, a lot of doubt with Peter in the NT, and who wrote it. Some claimed it was the Apostle St Peter but even I am sceptical myself, I am telling you this to show that I won’t just believe something because it’s found it’s way into the Bible.

Anyway, we can continue to chat about this but I sense you’re winding down your interest in doing so, so I am happy to agree to disagree and move on.
i'm not winding down especially if you keep writing things i don't agree with ;-)
 
I said I’d leave religion alone when it left me alone, not referring to Christianity specifically. I guess it didn’t take you long to develop a Christian persecution complex? ;-)

Nevertheless, Christianity, Judaism, Islam...they’re all spots on the same arse. If you don’t think religion is having direct and indirect effects on everyday life, then your level of delusion is higher than I thought. Are you sure that dream of yours wasn’t in fact a stroke? You might want to get it checked out.

Security checks, tax breaks, places of worship being exempt from lockdown restrictions etc etc. No effect my arse.
think ban needs to check this out to put him in the picture

 
Religion Politics and Football you will never convert people to your way of thinking so it’s best to disagree and move on. Life is to short to get stressed out accept your beliefs and fuck everyone else, here ends today’s lesson on life.
You started it!
 

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