24 | Joško Gvardiol - 2023/24

[cleavers]

As a newish consumer of City-related media, this may be obvious to everyone but me, but has there been a recent player who has divided opinion so starkly? Obviously on here it’s either he’s terrible or awesome. Player ratings from the last game were either he is the worst of every player on the field (including Brentford) or one of the better ones. One rating will say he provided lots of offensive opportunities, the other will say he provided no offensive value. I listened to two City podcasts today. One was: he’s a failure, doesn’t get it, won’t/shouldn't play the rest of the season. The other praised him for his unique skill set, talked about his potential, mentioned how he’s getting better every game (obviously discussed how he’s not perfect but generally positive). Maybe Grealish was similar in terms of opinion?

His problem really is that people (still) don't understand Pep, and what Pep does, they think a LB or RB is only a defender, and a CB should play in the middle of defence. Pep thinks they should all be able to play anywhere in defence, and push into midfield as well, he does this with nearly all his defenders, it's part of learning football to Pep.

So for me...

He's generally good going forward.
He's less good defending out wide.
Pep wants him going forward, so he's bound to get caught up field, see Walker.
He likes to take a shot on (not so sure Pep is as keen on this aspect as I've seen him bollock him for it).

Pep is doing what he does with nearly all new young players (people forget he's younger than Phil, because he played in WC at 20), how many has he played in such a way as to come in from the left (or right) into midfield ?

I think Pep is playing him out of position to learn these aspects of the game, like others he won't become a master of them all, but he will learn more about what is good defensively. I think he'll eventually become a CB for us, but it might take a few seasons.

People are then polarized on defence or attack, so the ones who prefer defence tend to be on his back for his defending, the ones praising him are more into the attacking side of the game. The reality is, he both young, new, and learning a new way of playing, all at the same time, so there's bound to be some ups and downs.

 

[vanchi]

As a newish consumer of City-related media, this may be obvious to everyone but me, but has there been a recent player who has divided opinion so starkly? Obviously on here it’s either he’s terrible or awesome. Player ratings from the last game were either he is the worst of every player on the field (including Brentford) or one of the better ones. One rating will say he provided lots of offensive opportunities, the other will say he provided no offensive value. I listened to two City podcasts today. One was: he’s a failure, doesn’t get it, won’t/shouldn't play the rest of the season. The other praised him for his unique skill set, talked about his potential, mentioned how he’s getting better every game (obviously discussed how he’s not perfect but generally positive). Maybe Grealish was similar in terms of opinion?

which podcasts?

youtube algorithms introduced me to some old guys doing city content, my god they can’t stand joško. according to them if pep doesn’t want ake at lb he should play doku (guy 1) or gomez (guy 2) there. and of course, that game would end 3:0 with gvardiol off the pitch.

according to them he contributes absolutely nothing either offensively or defensively and they can’t understand why pep plays him so their guess is contractual obligation.

city experts, does pep do those? and for a new signing who’s a kid from another league?

 

[vanchi]

His problem really is that people (still) don't understand Pep, and what Pep does, they think a LB or RB is only a defender, and a CB should play in the middle of defence. Pep thinks they should all be able to play anywhere in defence, and push into midfield as well, he does this with nearly all his defenders, it's part of learning football to Pep.

So for me...

He's generally good going forward.
He's less good defending out wide.
Pep wants him going forward, so he's bound to get caught up field, see Walker.
He likes to take a shot on (not so sure Pep is as keen on this aspect as I've seen him bollock him for it).

Pep is doing what he does with nearly all new young players (people forget he's younger than Phil, because he played in WC at 20), how many has he played in such a way as to come in from the left (or right) into midfield ?

I think Pep is playing him out of position to learn these aspects of the game, like others he won't become a master of them all, but he will learn more about what is good defensively. I think he'll eventually become a CB for us, but it might take a few seasons.

People are then polarized on defence or attack, so the ones who prefer defence tend to be on his back for his defending, the ones praising him are more into the attacking side of the game. The reality is, he both young, new, and learning a new way of playing, all at the same time, so there's bound to be some ups and downs.

hmh this sounds like long term planning which would only make sense if pep’s planning to stay. and can potentially ruin gvardiol’s career cause we’re having flop narratives all the time, and we’ll never know how good or bad he would play as cb in his first year.
and i can’t think of many (any?) new to the league signings this season that are being played out of position.

everyone’s expecting pep will drop him completely soon. what if he doesn’t?
people assume pep will just switch back to the business end of last season settings. what if he doesn’t, what if chaos is new control?

for example, what if he wants more midfield control so he chooses rodri, kova and kdb, and then plays gvardiol as winger so foden can do his thing centrally?
corner flag to corner flag space for gvardiol to end up guilty of something.

 

[cleavers]

hmh this sounds like long term planning which would only make sense if pep’s planning to stay. and can potentially ruin gvardiol’s career cause we’re having flop narratives all the time, and we’ll never know how good or bad he would play as cb in his first year.
and i can’t think of many (any?) new to the league signings this season that are being played out of position.

everyone’s expecting pep will drop him completely soon. what if he doesn’t?
people assume pep will just switch back to the business end of last season settings. what if he doesn’t, what if chaos is new control?

for example, what if he wants more midfield control so he chooses rodri, kova and kdb, and then plays gvardiol as winger so foden can do his thing centrally?
corner flag to corner flag space for gvardiol to end up guilty of something.

The thing is Pep is doing what Pep does, he's not doing it to ruin his career, he's doing it to educate him in football.

As for the bold bit, Pep does it with young players "new to the league", Zinchenko, Foden, Gomez, Gvardiol, Lewis, Bobb, Hamilton, all were or are "new to the league", he's also done it with players not "new to the league" like Stones, Walker, and Ake.

Simply, he regularly plays players in different positions than their so called regular position, it's not new, Pep just expects it.

 

[vanchi]

The thing is Pep is doing what Pep does, he's not doing it to ruin his career, he's doing it to educate him in football.

As for the bold bit, Pep does it with young players "new to the league", Zinchenko, Foden, Gomez, Gvardiol, Lewis, Bobb, Hamilton, all were or are "new to the league", he's also done it with players not "new to the league" like Stones, Walker, and Ake.

Simply, he regularly plays players in different positions than their so called regular position, it's not new, Pep just expects it.

of course pep’s not doing it to ruin his career, i never said that.

and i get that he wants his players to be versatile. the amount of crap gvardiol’s getting is disgusting though.

and btw, i think you told me proper, true city fans don’t shit on city players, only fake people on twitter pretending to be city fans. if you still think so, then many posters on this forum are fake city fans.

 

[nellyonthewing]

I think he is going to be a great player and Pep will teach him many new skills but he cannot make him faster or more mobile. At left back we are wide open to fast attacks breaking into all the space on that side . Surely he and Ake just swop places.
I know Pep is experimenting with him and Walker as wide attacking full backs . Neither are much cop at delivering a cross.
Pep knows best !!! but how many of our challengers for the trophies are 'experimenting'...

 

[CPPSC]

of course pep’s not doing it to ruin his career, i never said that.

and i get that he wants his players to be versatile. the amount of crap gvardiol’s getting is disgusting though.

and btw, i think you told me proper, true city fans don’t shit on city players, only fake people on twitter pretending to be city fans. if you still think so, then many posters on this forum are fake city fans.

They maybe not fake but they are know nowts!
Gvardiol will become even better under Pep no problem.

 

[cleavers]

of course pep’s not doing it to ruin his career, i never said that.

I didn't say that you did say that.

i think you told me proper, true city fans don’t shit on city players, only fake people on twitter pretending to be city fans. if you still think so, then many posters on this forum are fake city fans.

I think you read too much into what people post on here, it is OK to criticise aspects of his performances, some are quite one sided, if he has a good game they say nothing.

I think he is going to be a great player and Pep will teach him many new skills but he cannot make him faster or more mobile. At left back we are wide open to fast attacks breaking into all the space on that side . Surely he and Ake just swop places.

Pep did exactly the same with Ake, played him LB to start, look how good he has turned out, Ake isn't quick or particularly mobile, but you can learn to anticipate better.

He is going to be a great player for us, very few come here under Pep, and "get it" right from the start, not here a year yet, but plays nearly every game.

 

[Phil1]

I didn't say that you did say that.


I think you read too much into what people post on here, it is OK to criticise aspects of his performances, some are quite one sided, if he has a good game they say nothing.



Pep did exactly the same with Ake, played him LB to start, look how good he has turned out, Ake isn't quick or particularly mobile, but you can learn to anticipate better.

He is going to be a great player for us, very few come here under Pep, and "get it" right from the start, not here a year yet, but plays nearly every game.

Your middle paragraph is spot on and why I tend to end up arguing with posters.
They are quick to give it out and will happily camp in a players thread who they perceive to be playing poorly but are gone in a flash when said player starts improving and has good games.

The worst type of fan out there imo and sadly we’ve a few.

 

[Middedon]

His problem really is that people (still) don't understand Pep, and what Pep does, they think a LB or RB is only a defender, and a CB should play in the middle of defence. Pep thinks they should all be able to play anywhere in defence, and push into midfield as well, he does this with nearly all his defenders, it's part of learning football to Pep.

Pep is doing what he does with nearly all new young players (people forget he's younger than Phil, because he played in WC at 20), how many has he played in such a way as to come in from the left (or right) into midfield ?

I think Pep is playing him out of position to learn these aspects of the game, like others he won't become a master of them all, but he will learn more about what is good defensively. I think he'll eventually become a CB for us, but it might take a few seasons.

People are then polarized on defence or attack, so the ones who prefer defence tend to be on his back for his defending, the ones praising him are more into the attacking side of the game. The reality is, he both young, new, and learning a new way of playing, all at the same time, so there's bound to be some ups and downs.

Just wanted to say, it’s posts like this that make me really appreciate this forum. Lots of insightful bits to mull over and some historical perspective. More than we get from most journalists (even the City ones).

 

[vanchi]

Confirmation bias for some. They will see what they want to see. It's sad you have to post stats every single time, and then people are like: "Why are you defending him?" Because he is unjustly attacked more often than most, if not all City players. "Gvardiol is shit" is like “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it." (Goebbels).

spot on. not the first time i posted stats :D

actually, i read that city would win every game comfortably without gvardiol. he was even blamed for wolves and liverpool results although he didn’t play those games, believe it or not.

aston villa game - he did nothing, completely useless when he actually won an insane amount of duels in a very difficult game where there was a huge midfield issue.

i still believe midfield was a big part of the problem during the “crisis” but defenders took all the blame.

chelsea game, error for the goal, yes, should’ve done better.
the rest of the game? he had absolutely no support from the winger, james on the other side, a different story.

spurs at home game - city were winning when he left the pitch.

arsenal game - the unfortunate deflected goal didn’t come from his side.
actually, he was responsible for city’s only shot on target in that game, and he managed to do it while wrestling with odegaard.

newcastle league cup game - yeah we all knew that cup was gonna be dropped due to scheduling issues in december. and pep had kalvin start that game. need i say more?

crystal palace game - this thread was on fire after that game although their goals weren’t his fault while some other players’ threads were quiet like a cemetery at 3 am, and they should’ve been busy. :D

 

[vanchi]

I think you read too much into what people post on here, it is OK to criticise aspects of his performances, some are quite one sided, if he has a good game they say nothing.

of course it’s ok to criticise, i’m not going round quoting everyone who dislikes joško. i try to stick to facts, and even then sometimes i get told it’s my croatian bias or that time when i was called a fangirl after i literally posted valid arguments and facts.

reading too much? but this is a forum, people communicate by writing posts. some of those posts are vile and still i stick to facts because this isn’t twitter and i can’t choose violence :D

 

[Phil1]

spot on. not the first time i posted stats :D

actually, i read that city would win every game comfortably without gvardiol. he was even blamed for wolves and liverpool results although he didn’t play those games, believe it or not.

aston villa game - he did nothing, completely useless when he actually won an insane amount of duels in a very difficult game where there was a huge midfield issue.

i still believe midfield was a big part of the problem during the “crisis” but defenders took all the blame.

chelsea game, error for the goal, yes, should’ve done better.
the rest of the game? he had absolutely no support from the winger, james on the other side, a different story.

spurs at home game - city were winning when he left the pitch.

arsenal game - the unfortunate deflected goal didn’t come from his side.
actually, he was responsible for city’s only shot on target in that game, and he managed to do it while wrestling with odegaard.

newcastle league cup game - yeah we all knew that cup was gonna be dropped due to scheduling issues in december. and pep had kalvin start that game. need i say more?

crystal palace game - this thread was on fire after that game although their goals weren’t his fault while some other players’ threads were quiet like a cemetery at 3 am, and they should’ve been busy. :D

I wouldn’t worry too much about some of the opinions you see on here.
There’s a few posters who have rain clouds follow them around from the moment they wake until the moment they sleep.
Suck the joy out of an orgy most of them.

 

[cleavers]

reading too much? but this is a forum

The "reading too much into it" is not what you thought, it's a way of saying taking some things the wrong way.
Like

i’m not going round quoting everyone who dislikes joško

I don't think anyone "dislikes" him, they just criticise things he does, if you are reading them in the match day thread, then even more so. I've been on here for years, and that's one thread I always make a point of NOT reading ;-) It's full of knee jerk (emphasis on last word) reaction.

 

[cleavers]

There’s a few posters who have rain clouds follow them around from the moment they wake until the moment they sleep.
Suck the joy out of an orgy most of them.

LOL very true.

 

[vanchi]

The "reading too much into it" is not what you thought, it's a way of saying taking some things the wrong way.
Like

I don't think anyone "dislikes" him, they just criticise things he does, if you are reading them in the match day thread, then even more so. I've been on here for years, and that's one thread I always make a point of NOT reading ;-) It's full of knee jerk (emphasis on last word) reaction.

no i know what the expression means, but when someone says gvardiol needs to be slapped in the face, what is the right way to take it?
and this form of communication lacks the subtleties of non verbal communication. things like “useless fraud” are pretty straightforward imho.

but i don’t believe in “i didn’t mean it” in real life either. if you said it, you said it, it’s done, and i’ll never ever forget it :D

you don’t think anyone dislikes him? i could name a few :D but i won’t. bm version of me is super nice. :D

 

[vanchi]

I wouldn’t worry too much about some of the opinions you see on here.
There’s a few posters who have rain clouds follow them around from the moment they wake until the moment they sleep.
Suck the joy out of an orgy most of them.

that is an excellent description :D

on a positive note, if all else fails joško can be useful as a cook :D

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

I wouldn’t worry too much about some of the opinions you see on here.
There’s a few posters who have rain clouds follow them around from the moment they wake until the moment they sleep.
Suck the joy out of an orgy most of them.

Rob McKenna likes this post!

 

[cleavers]

no i know what the expression means, but when someone says gvardiol needs to be slapped in the face, what is the right way to take it?

It's best ignored to be honest, the person posting it could do with that instead.

 

[Paul1970]

What happens next season though I mean does josko go into central defence or stay at left back because if we don’t move any defenders on he situation will probably stay the same which is no good for anyone especially gvadiol .