737-8 max plane goes down (2018) - new not Max crash Indonesia

Lol don't be so ridiculous
Well he is a training captain-what's your qualification?

With today's level of automation which he refers to, it's perfectly possible. It's highly likely that as long as the FMC is correctly programmed the actual controls would require no further input even to the point of the aircraft stopping on the runway.
 
Verbalize
Verify
Monitor

Verbalize what you’re going to do.
Verify that it gets done.
Monitor the result.

One of the biggest problems with newer aircraft is that they’re so smart you can be lulled into a state of complacency or false security. “Children of the magenta line” is the derogatory term used for those pilots who grew up with automation and have barely “flown-flown” aircraft, let alone aircraft without any automation.

It used to be that flying without any automation was normal and that as you progressed up the industry ladder, the aircraft became more automated and you enjoyed the relief.

Today, new pilots learn to fly (fully) automated aircraft that have programming requirements and the knowledge of how to takeoff and land. For those pilots, automation has been the norm, and any step down in automation borders on an emergency.

Indeed, there is currently a big push in aviation for pilots to be more proficient hand-flyers whenever possible and to save the full-up automation for when it’s needed.

This ensures proficiency and currency, while allowing each pilot to emphasize the skills they’re supposed to be using on the Flight Deck: Pilot Flying and Pilot Monitoring.

Lastly, there is a new initiative called FLIGHT PATH FIRST, which is designed to make certain both pilots are focused PRIMARILY on the fact that the aircraft is going exactly WHERE you want it to go HOW you want it to get there.

That might sound basic, but modern aircraft have multiple different modes of flight and ensuring the aircraft is doing what you want, in the mode you want, is not as straightforward as one might think, especially when turning automation on and off.

For instance, as an automated aircraft reaches its cruising altitude, it switches from CLIMB to CRUISE mode, then DESCENT as you approach your destination. They’re completely different and programmed differently.

e.g. If I was climbing without automation (hand-flying) the aircraft would be in one mode (basically manual mode, with the pilot determining speed & altitude), but if I reached 25,000 feet while climbing to 30,000 feet, and hit “AUTOPILOT” to take me the rest of the way, it might be pre-programmed at a different speed than I was flying. That then automatically pushes the nose down (to get faster) or pulls it up (to climb at a slower speed, if I was already at CLIMB thrust).

Conversely, you could have been asked by ATC to climb at 2,000 feet per minute or greater to avoid other traffic. When you hit VERTICAL SPEED and dial in 2000fpm, your speed can dramatically drop off, because you were climbing at CLIMB thrust using the VNAV (automated prompts) as your guide.

In short, it’s a very dynamic environment and one ATC request or one pilot’s choice of flight mode can change those dynamics in ways you may not have wanted or expected, requiring constant adjustment and/or correction.

The goal of a good flight crew is to make all of those machinations that are going on behind the scenes feel seamless to you and to never happen without both (all 3 or 4?) pilots understanding EXACTLY what the Pilot Flying is asking the aircraft to do (Verbalize & Verify) and then making sure it is doing it as intended (Monitor).

All of that is merely to say it becomes MUCH easier to just turn the automation on at a low altitude (the 787 autopilot can be turned on at 200 feet above the ground) and, if you so choose, not turn it off until after conducting an automated landing!

BUT, that “easier” causes skills decay and muscle memory atrophy, not to mention a level of complacency that must be overcome when the automation might not be available due to a malfunction…which is why I usually hand fly up yo 18,000’ and down from about 10,000’ depending on the arrival. Some places, like São Paulo do so much controlling of aircraft, it’s often easier to hand fly the descent than constantly be changing flight modes, while Heathrow has a thing called a Constant Descent Angle arrival that’s much easier to accomplish with automation.

What was the question, again???
(Apologies to those that lost interest and didn’t get this far to read the apology!!)
Great post!

A major contribution I've seen is the easing out of the military heirarchy, as you will know this was a big problem years ago when a significant number of pilots were ex-military and cockpits were operated like a long day at Sandhurst. This is a really bad combination given the lack of automation and far greater number of decisions to make. Modern fuel systems are the best example of the benefits of automation. Fuel systems now mostly operate automatically whereas in the past you needed a 3rd guy to manage it manually. Another person, more decisions, bad culture, a lot can go wrong.

There is a happy balance I think between both worlds, automation is extremely useful in reducing workload but then pilots need to understand what's happening and also know how to get the most out of it. That comes down to experience and training which for me is where most gains will now be found on safety. Sorry I'm biased because that's where I work :). A lack of training was of course a significant contributor to the MAX crashes.

It's really interesting to me how even football teams can draw parallels between how cockpits have come to operate and change over the years. Football teams used to be run like the military model with one manager or chairman who tells everybody what to do. However now they're far more open to challenge and there is a focus on putting the team ahead of individuals, city today would never buy a star player with an ego.

Pep to me isn't a crazy genius, he does have great ideas obviously but he also has a very good team of people behind him and they all work very well together without any heirarchy of decision making. I really believe that if the cleaner came to Pep with a good idea then he would go with it. If you can get all of those people motivated behind one goal then they're unstoppable.
 
MCAS says hi. 346 dead thanks to the 'intelligent' aircraft.
We can always return to the dumb aircraft of old which were far more complicated to operate, were of comparatively less quality (aircraft were designed on paper until the 80s!) and had unavoidable quirks that could kill you on a bad day. The statistics more than prove this because years ago more crashes happened with less aircraft in the air, today it's the opposite.

MCAS is a poorly designed system because it critically depends upon something which has a single point of failure. Boeing will have no choice but to put this right. I don't know how they are putting it right but that's fine because unlike before everybody is well aware of how MCAS behaves and what to do when it misbehaves. If this misbehaviour couldn't be mitigated through training then the aircraft would not be allowed to fly full stop.

There are many checklist drills that pilots must perform (often by memory alone) and these exist because yes things do go wrong. The impact of the MCAS system should of been on that list but it wasn't. So you could argue is the system itself at fault or just the way the system is operated? From a safety point of view it's both.

This is the holes in swiss cheese.
 
Lol don't be so ridiculous
Basically…

Open SPD window & set on command
Open ALT window & set on command
Set FLCH/VNAV on command
Set AUTOBRAKES to 4
Update SPD window on command
Set Flaps on command
Hit APP button on command
“TELL ME WHAT IT SAYS ON TOP OF LEFT SCREEN, IF IT SAYS WHAT I THINK IT SAYS DON’T TOUCH ANOTHER THING AND THE AIRPLANE WILL COME TO A STOP ON THE RUNWAY CENTERLINE ABOUT 7,000 FEET DOWN THE RUNWAY.”

Which part don’t you like/would you like to change?
 
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MCAS says hi. 346 dead thanks to the 'intelligent' aircraft.
The REAL problem was MCAS never said “Hi!” in the Flight Manual, so when it showed up, no-one knew what it was!

Now we know, no problem!

It’s not the super intelligence of the aircraft but the lack of intelligence of the idiots who thought they could hide it to avoid sim training and $$$$ to operators.
 
There are many checklist drills that pilots must perform (often by memory alone) and these exist because yes things do go wrong. The impact of the MCAS system should have been on that list but it wasn't. So you could argue is the system itself at fault or just the way the system is operated? From a safety point of view it's both.

The worst part of the MCAS debacle was that if they’d simply told us what it was and that disconnecting the SPEED TRIM would stop it, no-one would have died.

Indeed, one of the crews did disconnect it, but by instinct not an MCAS checklist, so they turned it back on, and then it killed them!

I’d probably have died in the first crash, because it happened so quickly, without knowledge and the aircraft seemed to be TRYING to kill them.

In the second event, insidious though it was, I think it was survivable.

I was flying the MAX at the time of those crashes and was as outraged as everyone else when we heard about MCAS, because “but for the grace of God…!”
 
AF447-228 dead thanks to poor training of the pilots.
It was a tad more than that, but in the final analysis, the pilot is the last link in the error chain!

When stuff goes wrong in an Airbus, the checklist driven ECAM system has a cascading effect that can hide the REAL problem, because it’s trying to tell you all the things you need to do to fix everything all at once.

This problem was particularly bad because it was an input to multiple different critical systems, which meant the ECAM chimes, colors, and rapidly changing GUI wasn’t nearly as helpful as it could have in telling the pilot WHAT THE FUCK IS THE PROBLEM?!

From there, any pilot worth his salt would have recognized that they needed to simply use the UPSET RECOVERY MANEUVER and set KNOWN PITCH & POWER SETTINGS to stabilize the jet.

Sadly, three things killed them:

1) One of the pilots had the side stick full aft because he thought they were descending (they were…faster than I hope I ever descend!) and he was trying to stop that descent

2) The other pilot couldn’t see that the side stick was full aft (he could have done do if there was a yoke!)

3) They were descending because they were in a RECOVERABLE stall, but didn’t recognize it because the one FO didn’t think they could still be stalled in a 10,000fpm descent

If EITHER of them had simply pushed the side stick/nose down to get “flyable” airflow over the wings, they could have recovered. However, there was a point well before they hit the water where there was literally nothing they could have done and they realized it. ;-(
 
Basically…

Open SPD window & set on command
Open ALT window & set on command
Set FLCH on command
Set AUTOBRAKES to 4
Update SPD window on command
Set Flaps on command
Hit APP button on command
“TELL ME WHAT IT SAYS ON TOP OF LEFT SCREEN, IF IT SAYS WHAT I THINK IT SAYS DON’T TOUCH ANOTHER THING AND THE AIRPLANE WILL COME TO A STOP ON THE RUNWAY CENTERLINE ABOUT 7,000 FEET DOWN THE RUNWAY.”

Which part don’t you like/would you like to change?
Should I be writing this down, just in case? :)
 
Should I be writing this down, just in case? :)
Nah, you’d just leave it in your packed pants in the cargo hold anyway! ;-)

The 787 is highly automated, when we want it to be, and I could (and do!) literally program it to fly from Chicago to São Paulo, Brazil (about 9:30-10:00 hour flight) and land. At 200 feet I could turn on the autopilot and after raising the flaps, go to bed for 9 hrs and get up to watch it land, after slowing down and extending the gear & flaps.

We don’t because ATC is constantly changing our flight plans and we manage the systems, but in an emergency you own the skies and you tell them what you’re doing, not the other way around!

Plus, you’d be surprised how many doctors, nurses and pilots are on aircraft at any given time!
 
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