737-8 max plane goes down (2018) - new not Max crash Indonesia

[inbetween]

Seeing as you ask - almost 20 years experience on Bombardier, Embraer, Boeing and Airbus types and currently flying the same aircraft as he does. I'm well aware how an autoland works but the idea 'almost anyone' can just jump into a seat and be talked down is just oversimplistic in my humble view. He has a different view which is fine.

I'm sure @ChicagoBlue is just talking hypothetically, none of these scenarios will ever happen (hopefully!!) but in terms of safety you only have to view it in the context of what came before. Things are so much better that there is at least some confidence that somebody could be talked down in a 787, a 120 tonne airliner! It's incredible really.

Something like a 747 or 767 would spell trouble because of less automation and any mistakes would be punished. However, think of a bog standard Cessna, that would be torturous and I wouldn't trust anybody with zero experience to land safely. Speed management in a Cessna alone would probably kill somebody however this is usually the first aircraft that any student will ever fly...

I can always remember one of my first lessons where I went to change throttle and instead put my hand on the red fuel mixture lever and my instructor slapped me, it's red for a reason..... Which idiot at Cessna decided to put the throttle lever and fuel mixture lever next to each other???

I've always found GA to be mentally exhausting and just a couple of hours in UK airspace is more than enough. If you throw a problem into this mixture then it becomes dangerous really quickly. Airliners are unfortunately designed to take the most dangerous part of flying out of the equation which is the human who controls the plane. This isn't to say any pilot is incompetent but the statistics prove that we can make mistakes which can be catastrophic.

I know we're straying off-topic but for anybody interested the book "Life Lessons from the Cockpit of QF32" by Richard de Crespigny is incredible. The actions of the crew and how they worked through many problems that day certainly saved hundreds of lives.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

It's just very blasé to suggest 'almost anyone' could be talked through and paints a rather over-simplistic image of reality. Obviously all the above assumes your average punter would work out how to use the radio (on the right frequency) to be able to talk to you in the first place, then not bugger up the speed and energy management, not make an incorrect selection throwing things into chaos etc etc.

I’d like to think that only someone of above average intelligence and some level of calm would choose to attempt it, but my post was about the reassurance that almost anyone could be talked down, especially in a highly automated aircraft, with a very high probability of success.

Of course, energy mgmt is a big issue in the modern aircraft, especially with the vagaries of ATC in some places, but once an emergency is declared, you own your airspace, so have much greater latitude.

Additionally, a simple 3 step process can descend an aircraft from high altitude to low altitude safely and easily:

Set the altitude in the ALT window
Hit the FLCH button
That opens the airspeed window
Set the desired airspeed

The throttles will idiot to idle and the aircraft will descend to the set altitude at the airspeed selected by simply setting the idle power pitch for that airspeed.

From there, energy mgmt is simply a function of setting an airspeed, adding flaps, setting an altitude…lather, rinse, repeat.

All of that said, I assume there is a frequency already set and headsets already in place, so simply put on the headset and listen to some basic “lay of the land” instructions.

An autopilot and the level of automation is your friend and landing a 787 would be much easier than landing a Cessna 172 without that automation, because the “pilot” would have to control pitch and power themselves, while steering and bringing the aircraft to the runway.

I didn’t mean to sound blase about it. It was meant to be more comforting than anything.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

Seeing as you ask - almost 20 years experience on Bombardier, Embraer, Boeing and Airbus types and currently flying the same aircraft as he does. I'm well aware how an autoland works but the idea 'almost anyone' can just jump into a seat and be talked down is just oversimplistic in my humble view. He has a different view which is fine.

Congrats on the career from someone who understands some of what you’ve been through.

 

[ChicagoBlue]

If both pilots incapacitated, I guess getting on the flight deck may be a challenge!

I’m not going to touch that!

 

[Toney’s bookie]

Something like a 747 or 767 would spell trouble because of less automation and any mistakes would be punished.

Tbh I don’t think it would really, the 747 isn’t much different to the 787 in terms of MCP management to conduct an autoland so in terms of hypothetically talking someone through it then it wouldn’t be much different imo. Obviously the 787 is FBW and has more protections but if you got to the stage where that became relevant it wouldn’t be a great place for a passenger to be in any type! On a routine flight there’s not a particularly noticeable difference in automation between the 747 and 787. I’ve sadly never flown the 767 (would have loved to) so can’t comment on that but I suspect it’s just a Boeing!

Anyway, doubt it will ever happen unless Airbus ever manage to get rid of pilots!

 

[Toney’s bookie]

Congrats on the career from someone who understands some of what you’ve been through.

The 787 is just a big Embraer 195 :D

Maybe catch you in Chicago for a city game sometime on a layover

 

[cpa]

I've wanted to be a pilot since i was about 5. A guy on my street was an aircraft mechanic and a qualified pilot too (not sure up to what level).

We would often go up and fix the planes at Leeds/Bradford for smaller companies (Gill air, Knight air etc) and then taxi them back over to the main terminal. Great fun.

He also had early flight simulator for the PC and he taught me the basics of flying as a kid.

As an adult i can't afford to become a commercial pilot, which is what it is. But a bit crap that it's only unattainable because of cost.

Planes fascinate me still.

Funny Max story, we flew to Krakow from Luton in December and we were on a max. My mate was next to the emergency exit and there was a leak so he was wet by the time we got there. Plane was a year old at most.

Also interesting to note is that the seat safety card/label doesn't mention that it's a max. It's conveniently left out :D

As the Aircraft is pressurised you dont really get outside leaks unless on the ground and thats only around the doors.
So perhaps the door had let water in on the ground but unlikely.
What tends to happen is a build up of condensation behind the ceiling panels on the inside surface of the skin due to either the very cold skin meeting the warm air off the passengers or vice - versa after the aircrafts been on the ground and heated up, which it does do rapidly in summer and then having the A/C switched on .Tends to be worse on take off as the Aircraft angle changes ,was quiet noticible on the 747,s which after some flights would have pieces of toilet paper wedged between the overhead panels.
All the water lines and waste lines tend to run below the floor.With only the A/c above.
Apart from the 747 upper deck which could be problematic for the passengers below if they had a leak in the upper deck toilets or galley .

 

[ChicagoBlue]

The 787 is just a big Embraer 195 :D

Maybe catch you in Chicago for a city game sometime on a layover

I’m here half the month. Where do you stay?

 

[ChicagoBlue]

As the Aircraft is pressurised you dont really get outside leaks unless on the ground and thats only around the doors.
So perhaps the door had let water in on the ground but unlikely.
What tends to happen is a build up of condensation behind the ceiling panels on the inside surface of the skin due to either the very cold skin meeting the warm air off the passengers or vice - versa after the aircrafts been on the ground and heated up, which it does do rapidly in summer and then having the A/C switched on .Tends to be worse on take off as the Aircraft angle changes ,was quiet noticible on the 747,s which after some flights would have pieces of toilet paper wedged between the overhead panels.
All the water lines and waste lines tend to run below the floor.With only the A/c above.
Apart from the 747 upper deck which could be problematic for the passengers below if they had a leak in the upper deck toilets or galley .

The 747 cockpit escape hatch on top of the hump was a notorious leaker on descent. The second jumpseater had to have a serious man spread not to get his uniform pants soaked!!