A minutes silence for Maggie!

[Prestwich_Blue]

You are a true child of Thatcher as shown by your opening statement which is arrogant and leaves no room for argument; absolutely no room for concensus - just like the woman herself.

I'm laughing at the irony of that statement, which also sums up the implacable anti-Thatcher elements on here.

The true consensus is that she did some things right and some things wrong and if you really lived through the mid-1970's, you'd know what a fucking mess this country was in at that time.

For every person she put on the scrapheap, she helped others move a rung or more up the ladder, through being able to set up businesses, giving them far more disposable income, allowing them to own their own homes, freeing them from high inflation, giving them access to credit. Inflation was squeezed out of the system and interest rates, apart from a short blip in the late 1980's, went steadily down. Her reduction of taxation rates made it worthwhile to save, which impacts the economy by giving governments access to additional funds.

It's also a myth to say she "destroyed" manufacturing industry. The truth is that it was already declining before she came to power. Between 1970 and 1979, its share of GDP declined by just under 2%. Between 1979 and 1990, the rate of decline actually slowed so that its share of GDP went down by 1.5%.

Now I can't stop you thinking that she was (in your arrogant words that leave no room for argument) "a vile woman" but I can point out that not everyone shares that opinion.

Interesting that you put more effort into those that moved up the ladder whilst completely ignoring those she put on the scrapheap. As if condemning people, and communities to the scrapheap is ok so long as others can flourish. In my world, the emphasis would be on getting those on the scrapheap off it, or better still not putting them there in the first place.

I've not put "more effort" into those on the scrapheap than those who moved up the ladder. I feel very deeply for those who lost their livelihoods and for those youngsters in North Manchester, who used to get taken on by firms like Mather & Platt and British Aerospace and now don't have that opportunity. I was a union rep at BAe when they abolished apprenticeships in favour of YTS and I went beserk over that.

But I'm trying to point out there are two sides to every story. Some people did well out of the Thatcher years and some didn't. That's the story of human civilisation not just a phenomenon of the Thatcher years. In the 1950's, many members of my family worked in the raincoat manufacturing industry in North Manchester. This largely disappeared by the end of the 1960's/early 1970's due to foreign competition and the fact that not many of the next generation wanted to go into that industry. No one got bitter about the government "destroying" it.

Foreign competition and inefficiency is the reason firms like British Leyland went to the wall (which it first did in 1975) and British Steel had to down-size (which it started to do under Wilson and would have continued even if Callaghan had won the election in 1979). But UK steel-making is now one of the most efficient steel-making operations in the world, thanks to investment and restructuring.

The problem with "Thatcherism" was that it had an unshakeable belief in the power of the free market and a conviction that the role of government was not to run or interfere in the running of business. My own view is that the market can't always be relied on to make the best decisions and that the government should ensure there are checks and balances in place. The public and private sectors should work together, with both doing what they do best.

 

[Lucky Toma]

Amazing that her death has drawn all the chavs and scumbags out into the open most of whom will be too young to have any coherent grasp of the politics of the time but don't have the fibre to formulate their own opinions on this or I suspect anything.

Listen dirtballs, I didn't like George Best. He played for our hated rivals. He was a selfish alcoholic who'd had a liver transplant but still drank himself to death. That liver could've saved somebody else's life but Best didn't give a fuck - ergo he was a selfish dirtball in my eyes, rightly or wrongly.

But when they had a minutes silence for him at Eastlands I stood there quietly because that's what decent people do when others are paying respect to somebody whose passing they mourn. And I'll do the same for Baconface and I'd do the same for Scargill or Benn or any of Thatcher's bitter rivals.

It's about respect you poorly brought up knobheads

Since the old woman's death why is it only those who have been anti-Thatcher who have been belittled as being 'too young' to fully realise who she was and what she did?

I have seen this accusation many times in the past few days and never once aimed at any individual lauding the evil ****.

I have my own conclusion as to why this is but would only be accused of generalising.

 

[crazyg]

I see Dave Whelan (multi-millionaire) and John Madejski (multi-millionaire and major conservative party donor) want a minutes silence at matches. No surprises there then.

However, Madejski has now said that he wants the silence for the Witch Queen and for the 96 Liverpool supporters. The Liverpoo supporters are therefore between a rock and a hard place at that game.

I would hope that they, and any other supporters at matches where a silence is asked for, should ignore it and sing "justice for the 96" for a minute, before singing "ding dong the witch is dead" for a further minute.

That, in my mind, would seem to satisfy both criteria!

 

[oman0115]

Amazing that her death has drawn all the chavs and scumbags out into the open most of whom will be too young to have any coherent grasp of the politics of the time but don't have the fibre to formulate their own opinions on this or I suspect anything.

Listen dirtballs, I didn't like George Best. He played for our hated rivals. He was a selfish alcoholic who'd had a liver transplant but still drank himself to death. That liver could've saved somebody else's life but Best didn't give a fuck - ergo he was a selfish dirtball in my eyes, rightly or wrongly.

But when they had a minutes silence for him at Eastlands I stood there quietly because that's what decent people do when others are paying respect to somebody whose passing they mourn. And I'll do the same for Baconface and I'd do the same for Scargill or Benn or any of Thatcher's bitter rivals.

It's about respect you poorly brought up knobheads

I'm gonna keep my opinions on this subject to myself but will indicate they go with the general consensus. What I feel I should say though ( and you should know also ) is that age or presence in this case and in all of Historical events is irrelevant. History is where we came from and I was young during the strikes, Falklands, H'boro, Apartheid etc but judging by the vast majority those events has a profound negative effect on the masses. We have to learn from the past, form opinions and decisions based on it. To expect the people affected to stand there in silence and in effect vindicate her behavior is tantamount to telling the Tories now they're free to behave in similar vain. Freedom of speech IMO, if certain wealthy millionaires feel the need to force their opinions and wishes on us, we are free to force ours and our voices upon them!

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Amazing that her death has drawn all the chavs and scumbags out into the open most of whom will be too young to have any coherent grasp of the politics of the time but don't have the fibre to formulate their own opinions on this or I suspect anything.

Listen dirtballs, I didn't like George Best. He played for our hated rivals. He was a selfish alcoholic who'd had a liver transplant but still drank himself to death. That liver could've saved somebody else's life but Best didn't give a fuck - ergo he was a selfish dirtball in my eyes, rightly or wrongly.

But when they had a minutes silence for him at Eastlands I stood there quietly because that's what decent people do when others are paying respect to somebody whose passing they mourn. And I'll do the same for Baconface and I'd do the same for Scargill or Benn or any of Thatcher's bitter rivals.

It's about respect you poorly brought up knobheads

I'm gonna keep my opinions on this subject to myself but will indicate they go with the general consensus. What I feel I should say though ( and you should know also ) is that age or presence in this case and in all of Historical events is irrelevant. History is where we came from and I was young during the strikes, Falklands, H'boro, Apartheid etc but judging by the vast majority those events has a profound negative effect on the masses. We have to learn from the past, form opinions and decisions based on it. To expect the people affected to stand there in silence and in effect vindicate her behavior is tantamount to telling the Tories now they're free to behave in similar vain. Freedom of speech IMO, if certain wealthy millionaires feel the need to force their opinions and wishes on us, we are free to force ours and our voices upon them!

What a stupid comment. So you're going to keep your thoughts to yourself but essentially you think she was all evil and everything she did was wrong, based on peoples' views on here.

To understand history you have to understand the context and even then people will interpret things in different ways or ignore the bits that don't suit their view and emphasise the bits that do. That's why there are so many contrasting views.

I certainly don't want a minute's silence for her and think it's ridiculous that we're spending £10m on a funeral for her. But I am open-minded enough to see that there are things she did that benefitted us and things she did that certainly didn't.

 

[oman0115]

Amazing that her death has drawn all the chavs and scumbags out into the open most of whom will be too young to have any coherent grasp of the politics of the time but don't have the fibre to formulate their own opinions on this or I suspect anything.

Listen dirtballs, I didn't like George Best. He played for our hated rivals. He was a selfish alcoholic who'd had a liver transplant but still drank himself to death. That liver could've saved somebody else's life but Best didn't give a fuck - ergo he was a selfish dirtball in my eyes, rightly or wrongly.

But when they had a minutes silence for him at Eastlands I stood there quietly because that's what decent people do when others are paying respect to somebody whose passing they mourn. And I'll do the same for Baconface and I'd do the same for Scargill or Benn or any of Thatcher's bitter rivals.

It's about respect you poorly brought up knobheads

I'm gonna keep my opinions on this subject to myself but will indicate they go with the general consensus. What I feel I should say though ( and you should know also ) is that age or presence in this case and in all of Historical events is irrelevant. History is where we came from and I was young during the strikes, Falklands, H'boro, Apartheid etc but judging by the vast majority those events has a profound negative effect on the masses. We have to learn from the past, form opinions and decisions based on it. To expect the people affected to stand there in silence and in effect vindicate her behavior is tantamount to telling the Tories now they're free to behave in similar vain. Freedom of speech IMO, if certain wealthy millionaires feel the need to force their opinions and wishes on us, we are free to force ours and our voices upon them!

What a stupid comment. So you're going to keep your thoughts to yourself but essentially you think she was all evil and everything she did was wrong, based on peoples' views on here.

To understand history you have to understand the context and even then people will interpret things in different ways or ignore the bits that don't suit their view and emphasise the bits that do. That's why there are so many contrasting views.

I certainly don't want a minute's silence for her and think it's ridiculous that we're spending £10m on a funeral for her. But I am open-minded enough to see that there are things she did that benefitted us and things she did that certainly didn't.

I think you've either misunderstood or misread, I have my views but I'm not spouting them on a football forum, I don't want to get into the nitty gritty but from reading general opinions of football fans in general this is a highly inappropriate request of a few wealthy individuals associated with football. Your point about judging history in context is true in essence, but it casts us back to the notion that history by and large is written from the victor. In this instance, wealthy gentlemen who benefitted under her ( victors ) are forcing or attempting to on working class arenas ( Emerites excluded ;) ) their thoughts. It's unnecessary and if the masses object they have every right to.

 

[jollylescott]

You are a true child of Thatcher as shown by your opening statement which is arrogant and leaves no room for argument; absolutely no room for concensus - just like the woman herself.

I'm laughing at the irony of that statement, which also sums up the implacable anti-Thatcher elements on here.

The true consensus is that she did some things right and some things wrong and if you really lived through the mid-1970's, you'd know what a fucking mess this country was in at that time.

For every person she put on the scrapheap, she helped others move a rung or more up the ladder, through being able to set up businesses, giving them far more disposable income, allowing them to own their own homes, freeing them from high inflation, giving them access to credit. Inflation was squeezed out of the system and interest rates, apart from a short blip in the late 1980's, went steadily down. Her reduction of taxation rates made it worthwhile to save, which impacts the economy by giving governments access to additional funds.

It's also a myth to say she "destroyed" manufacturing industry. The truth is that it was already declining before she came to power. Between 1970 and 1979, its share of GDP declined by just under 2%. Between 1979 and 1990, the rate of decline actually slowed so that its share of GDP went down by 1.5%.

Now I can't stop you thinking that she was (in your arrogant words that leave no room for argument) "a vile woman" but I can point out that not everyone shares that opinion.

Interesting that you put more effort into those that moved up the ladder whilst completely ignoring those she put on the scrapheap. As if condemning people, and communities to the scrapheap is ok so long as others can flourish. In my world, the emphasis would be on getting those on the scrapheap off it, or better still not putting them there in the first place.

Indeed in my view the true measure of a government is how they treat those that are most disadvantaged. By this measure, or any other measure which involves any sense of decency, compassion and fair play, she failed miserably. To paraphrase Lincoln, our leaders should be there to appeal to the better angels in our nature. It is all to easy to divide and rule. Hers was a politics of small mindedness and division. She does not deserve a minutes silence.

 

[west didsblue]

There should not be an attempt at a minute's silence for the simple reason that there is not a cat in hell's chance that it would be observed in a single stadium in the country which would then bring the whole game into disrepute. If Dave Whelan and John Madejski can't see that, they must be going senile.

 

[M18CTID]

Amazing that her death has drawn all the chavs and scumbags out into the open most of whom will be too young to have any coherent grasp of the politics of the time but don't have the fibre to formulate their own opinions on this or I suspect anything.

Listen dirtballs, I didn't like George Best. He played for our hated rivals. He was a selfish alcoholic who'd had a liver transplant but still drank himself to death. That liver could've saved somebody else's life but Best didn't give a fuck - ergo he was a selfish dirtball in my eyes, rightly or wrongly.

But when they had a minutes silence for him at Eastlands I stood there quietly because that's what decent people do when others are paying respect to somebody whose passing they mourn. And I'll do the same for Baconface and I'd do the same for Scargill or Benn or any of Thatcher's bitter rivals.

It's about respect you poorly brought up knobheads

Since the old woman's death why is it only those who have been anti-Thatcher who have been belittled as being 'too young' to fully realise who she was and what she did?

I have seen this accusation many times in the past few days and never once aimed at any individual lauding the evil ****.

I have my own conclusion as to why this is but would only be accused of generalising.

I totally agree that the age thing is largely irrelevant - people young and old have either panned or praised her these last few days.

Knowledge of the subject matter is what's important and age has nothing to do with that.

I find that the trouble with politics is that tribalism all too often clouds one's view, and this is more evident when talking about Thatcher in particular. I've been guilty of this tribalism in the past. 20 years ago I hardly had a good word to say about the Conservative party but as time has gone on I've realised that all 3 main parties have both good and bad traits (if there was a general election tomorrow I've honestly got no idea who I would vote for). The same goes for Thatcher - she did both good and bad things throughout her tenure so I can understand the arguments on both sides. Despite that, I totally disagree with having a minute's silence for her.

 

[Zin 'messiah' Zimmer]

Amazing that her death has drawn all the chavs and scumbags out into the open most of whom will be too young to have any coherent grasp of the politics of the time but don't have the fibre to formulate their own opinions on this or I suspect anything.

Listen dirtballs, I didn't like George Best. He played for our hated rivals. He was a selfish alcoholic who'd had a liver transplant but still drank himself to death. That liver could've saved somebody else's life but Best didn't give a fuck - ergo he was a selfish dirtball in my eyes, rightly or wrongly.

But when they had a minutes silence for him at Eastlands I stood there quietly because that's what decent people do when others are paying respect to somebody whose passing they mourn. And I'll do the same for Baconface and I'd do the same for Scargill or Benn or any of Thatcher's bitter rivals.

It's about respect you poorly brought up knobheads

You are a true child of Thatcher as shown by your opening statement which is arrogant and leaves no room for argument; absolutely no room for concensus - just like the woman herself. She would be so proud of you.

For the record, I have lived through that vile woman's tenure in office and unfortunately, do have a coherent grasp of the politics of the time.

I wasn't born when Hitler was in power and doubt any member of this forum was but that doesn't mean we can't have an opinion on the man's politics - just as today's youth have on Thatcher's. In both cases, their policies decimated their countries and have a lasting impact today. Those people whose lives were destroyed by Thatcher have children - probably even grandchildren - and it is these people who will still be suffering the consequences of that vindictive woman's policies and have every right to voice their opinions on the matter.

I too detest George Best but was content to adhere to the minute's silence for his death - it was the proper thing to do. He was after all, a very good footballer.

However, to be expected to show respect for a woman who destroyed the lives of so many is going too far. It is not enough to simply walk away - silence just allows the chattering classes to think they are right in their opinion of her. There were many in nazi Germany who stood by and did nothing (the comparisons are becoming uncanny). The point is to show the establishment who insist she is shown respect that we do not agree to their demands. Whether or not it is bad form to behave in such a way, I for one would boo long, loud and hard so that the country and the world would know my outrage at being asked to acknowledge that woman as a human being.

If that makes be a knobhead then I would be happy to adopt that mantel. I'd rather be that than a condescending prat.

The best comeback in a long time on here - doths cap sir!!!!!