a secular society by 2030

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Analysis: Milestone left in Christian-secular debate
By Robert Pigott

Religious affairs correspondent, BBC News
The European Court of Human Rights said Nadia Eweida had suffered discrimination at work Continue reading the main story
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At first there seemed to be good news for traditionalist Christians in the judgement from the European Court of Human Rights.

Nadia Eweida, a British Airways check-in clerk who had been suspended by the company for insisting on wearing a small silver cross, had been vindicated.

The court had accepted that the UK government and courts had failed to protect her right to express her Christian faith, and she had even been awarded 6,000 euros in compensation and lost pay.

The judgement confirmed that wearing a cross was a legitimate way for Christians to express their religious beliefs.

It will make it that much harder for companies to introduce unreasonable restrictions on the wearing of Christian and other symbols of faith at work.

But that is more or less all traditionalist Christians can find to applaud in the judgement from Strasbourg.

Corporate image

For a start Ms Eweida's was something of a special case.

The court pointed out that her cross had been too "discreet" to stand any chance of damaging British Airways' corporate image, and the company had changed its uniform policy to allow such symbols shortly after the row anyway.

It turned down the appeal of Shirley Chaplin, a nurse from Exeter, whose employer had said the cross she wore was unhygienic.

The court said it was not in a position to judge the risk to health, but its finding suggests that if a company could reasonably demonstrate a risk to health and safety it would be able to prevent staff from wearing religious symbols.

The court's decisions in the cases of the remaining two Christians also seem to hand considerable discretion to employers to decide policies for providing services and to require their staff to abide by them whatever their religious beliefs.

Lillian Ladele was a registrar for Islington Council in London, but lost her job after she refused to preside over civil partnerships.

Reasonable policy

She was able to manage for some time by swapping tasks with colleagues who were happy to officiate at the same-sex ceremonies.

But after a complaint was made to the council, Ms Ladele was told she had to perform civil partnerships.

Gary McFarlane was sacked by Relate after he refused to counsel gay couples about their sexual relationships.

He had been advising homosexual people about their relationships for some time.

Both Ms Ladele and Mr McFarlane had argued in Strasbourg for "reasonable accommodation" - a compromise in which an employer would find alternative staff without conflicting religious convictions to perform the task.

They stressed that no gay person had been denied either a civil partnership or counselling as a result of their refusal to provide them.

But, dismissing both cases, the court said employers could oblige all their staff to comply with a reasonable policy.

Secularists had insisted that to do otherwise in either Ms Ladele's or Mr McFarlane's case would be demeaning to gay people, and "retrogressive".

Job applicants

The judgement does not mean a company can ignore the religious views of employees but it can override them in order to achieve "a higher priority" - in this case making sure gay people get equal treatment in the provision of services.

Companies will be able to ask applicants for jobs what their position is on issues such as civil partnerships or sexual counselling for gay couples, and refuse them the post if their religious beliefs would prevent them from doing the work.

None of this means that the right of Christians, traditionalist or otherwise, to hold religious beliefs has been undermined by the judgement.

British courts have distinguished between the right to hold a religious belief - which is protected under the law - and the right to manifest or express it, where the protection is much more qualified.

Traditionalist Christians claim their rights to freedom of religious conscience have been steadily subordinated to the rights - especially of homosexual people - to equality.

The European Court of Human Rights allows generous latitude to Council of Europe states to make their own decisions about such developments as civil partnerships.

Legal seal

The UK's Equality and Human Rights Commission suggested that British courts had interpreted the law on manifestation of religion and religious discrimination too narrowly in the past.

Myriad cases have come before the courts concerning not just counselling or civil partnerships but such issues as the placing of children for adoption by same-sex parents and the turning away of gay couples from guesthouses.

The European Court of Human Rights' judgement set a legal seal on the numerous hearings in which Christians have tried, and failed, to defend their values against secular ones in British courts.

Occasionally judges have seemed scathing about the claims made by Christians.

Dismissing an earlier appeal by Mr McFarlane, Mr Justice Laws said legislation that protected views, simply because they were religious, would be irrational, divisive and arbitrary.

He added that religion was a "matter of opinion" that could not be proved and should not, therefore, be used as the basis for making law.

Rights are a matter of balance - the exercise of one person's rights can undermine those of another.

That balance has shifted during recent decades, and the influence of Christian teaching on British culture and law has steadily waned.

The European Court of Human Rights has left a milestone on the road to a secular society.
 
It amused me no end that Mr McFarlane lost his case for discrimination seeing as he had been dismissed for discriminating against others.

Brilliant.
 
tonea2003 said:
He added that religion was a "matter of opinion" that could not be proved and should not, therefore, be used as the basis for making law.

Rights are a matter of balance - the exercise of one person's rights can undermine those of another.

That balance has shifted during recent decades, and the influence of Christian teaching on British culture and law has steadily waned.

The European Court of Human Rights has left a milestone on the road to a secular society.
Good on them and the judge.
 
CoE vicar on "This Morning"

"I don't think we should encourage people to be proud they are gay"

Fuck off you ****. Bring back the lions and the arena.
 
These sum up religion for me

Once I saw this guy on a bridge about to jump. I said, "Don't do it!" He said, "Nobody loves me." I said, "God loves you. Do you believe in God?"

He said, "Yes." I said, "Are you a Christian or a Jew?" He said, "A Christian." I said, "Me, too! Protestant or Catholic?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me, too! What franchise?" He said, "Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Baptist or Southern Baptist?" He said, "Northern Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist or Northern Liberal Baptist?"

He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist." I said, "Me, too! Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region, or Northern Conservative Baptist Eastern Region?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region." I said, "Me, too!"

Northern Conservative†Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1879, or Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912?" He said, "Northern Conservative Baptist Great Lakes Region Council of 1912." I said, "Die, heretic!" And I pushed him over.


When I was a kid, I used to pray every night for a new bike. Then I realised, the Lord doesn't work that way. So I just stole one and asked Him to forgive me ... and I got it!


If there is a god (I think that's a different argument) surely he/she/it will be mightily displeased with how organised religions have used and abused him.

eg. 1) To hate people of different religions.
2) To have great wealth and magnificent buildings when people are in poverty.

I'm sure there are many more examples.
 
SWP's back said:
CoE vicar on "This Morning"

"I don't think we should encourage people to be proud they are gay"

Fuck off you ****. Bring back the lions and the arena.

Aged 14 whilst at high school, I very vividly remember all of my friends starting discussions about sex and girls and who they fancied. I didn't get any of it, I wasn't interested and just carried on minding my own business. As that school year went on, I realised why: I wasn't attracted to the girls like all of my other friends, but the lads.

For two whole years, I was terrified that people would find out. I wanted to be the same as my friends, I wanted to fancy the girls and I didn't want to be gay. I didn't want to spend every day in school worrying that people would discover my secret and use it as a weapon against me. I didn't want to have the threat of being beaten up because of the people that I found attractive. I didn't want to grow up into a world where, if I walk down the street holding the hand of a partner, I would get more noticeable looks and more people staring than if I was holding a girl's hand.

Every hour of every day was spent with torment trying to, firstly, work out what was going on in my brain and then, secondly, try and come to terms with it and accept it. I was fortunate that I never really hated that side of myself, but there are so many teenagers who do. Throw into the mix the number of young people who kill themselves because of their sexuality and the society they live in's reaction to it - bullied at school, disowned by parents or family.

And it's statements like this one made by some buffoon on TV that does nothing for the self-esteem of teenagers worrying about their sexuality and attitudes towards them from other teenagers.

*sigh*
 
BlueMooney said:
SWP's back said:
CoE vicar on "This Morning"

"I don't think we should encourage people to be proud they are gay"

Fuck off you ****. Bring back the lions and the arena.

Aged 14 whilst at high school, I very vividly remember all of my friends starting discussions about sex and girls and who they fancied. I didn't get any of it, I wasn't interested and just carried on minding my own business. As that school year went on, I realised why: I wasn't attracted to the girls like all of my other friends, but the lads.

For two whole years, I was terrified that people would find out. I wanted to be the same as my friends, I wanted to fancy the girls and I didn't want to be gay. I didn't want to spend every day in school worrying that people would discover my secret and use it as a weapon against me. I didn't want to have the threat of being beaten up because of the people that I found attractive. I didn't want to grow up into a world where, if I walk down the street holding the hand of a partner, I would get more noticeable looks and more people staring than if I was holding a girl's hand.

Every hour of every day was spent with torment trying to, firstly, work out what was going on in my brain and then, secondly, try and come to terms with it and accept it. I was fortunate that I never really hated that side of myself, but there are so many teenagers who do. Throw into the mix the number of young people who kill themselves because of their sexuality and the society they live in's reaction to it - bullied at school, disowned by parents or family.

And it's statements like this one made by some buffoon on TV that does nothing for the self-esteem of teenagers worrying about their sexuality and attitudes towards them from other teenagers.

*sigh*

A very touching and sobering post mate. I can't begin to think how I'd have coped with those feelings (on top of the usual teenage feelings of vulnerability and angst).

He went on to say that teaching children about homosexuality at school would lead to pupils being confused about which they should pick. It was ridiculous and to be fair to Holly, she did say she couldn't believe that he had just said that and didn't agree with him.

I still don't know why he was given the opportunity to spout his outdated feelings to the nation though.
 
SWP's back said:
BlueMooney said:
SWP's back said:
CoE vicar on "This Morning"

"I don't think we should encourage people to be proud they are gay"

Fuck off you ****. Bring back the lions and the arena.

Aged 14 whilst at high school, I very vividly remember all of my friends starting discussions about sex and girls and who they fancied. I didn't get any of it, I wasn't interested and just carried on minding my own business. As that school year went on, I realised why: I wasn't attracted to the girls like all of my other friends, but the lads.

For two whole years, I was terrified that people would find out. I wanted to be the same as my friends, I wanted to fancy the girls and I didn't want to be gay. I didn't want to spend every day in school worrying that people would discover my secret and use it as a weapon against me. I didn't want to have the threat of being beaten up because of the people that I found attractive. I didn't want to grow up into a world where, if I walk down the street holding the hand of a partner, I would get more noticeable looks and more people staring than if I was holding a girl's hand.

Every hour of every day was spent with torment trying to, firstly, work out what was going on in my brain and then, secondly, try and come to terms with it and accept it. I was fortunate that I never really hated that side of myself, but there are so many teenagers who do. Throw into the mix the number of young people who kill themselves because of their sexuality and the society they live in's reaction to it - bullied at school, disowned by parents or family.

And it's statements like this one made by some buffoon on TV that does nothing for the self-esteem of teenagers worrying about their sexuality and attitudes towards them from other teenagers.

*sigh*

A very touching and sobering post mate. I can't begin to think how I'd have coped with those feelings (on top of the usual teenage feelings of vulnerability and angst).

He went on to say that teaching children about homosexuality at school would lead to pupils being confused about which they should pick. It was ridiculous and to be fair to Holly, she did say she couldn't believe that he had just said that and didn't agree with him.

I still don't know why he was given the opportunity to spout his outdated feelings to the nation though.


What a clown. To suggest you pick your sexuality.

People have to know where to get advice and that they are not alone. It's amazing that religion tries define how love is found and given whilst preaching hate or trying to pretend it doesn't exist.
 
SWP's back said:
BlueMooney said:
SWP's back said:
CoE vicar on "This Morning"

"I don't think we should encourage people to be proud they are gay"

Fuck off you ****. Bring back the lions and the arena.

Aged 14 whilst at high school, I very vividly remember all of my friends starting discussions about sex and girls and who they fancied. I didn't get any of it, I wasn't interested and just carried on minding my own business. As that school year went on, I realised why: I wasn't attracted to the girls like all of my other friends, but the lads.

For two whole years, I was terrified that people would find out. I wanted to be the same as my friends, I wanted to fancy the girls and I didn't want to be gay. I didn't want to spend every day in school worrying that people would discover my secret and use it as a weapon against me. I didn't want to have the threat of being beaten up because of the people that I found attractive. I didn't want to grow up into a world where, if I walk down the street holding the hand of a partner, I would get more noticeable looks and more people staring than if I was holding a girl's hand.

Every hour of every day was spent with torment trying to, firstly, work out what was going on in my brain and then, secondly, try and come to terms with it and accept it. I was fortunate that I never really hated that side of myself, but there are so many teenagers who do. Throw into the mix the number of young people who kill themselves because of their sexuality and the society they live in's reaction to it - bullied at school, disowned by parents or family.

And it's statements like this one made by some buffoon on TV that does nothing for the self-esteem of teenagers worrying about their sexuality and attitudes towards them from other teenagers.

*sigh*

A very touching and sobering post mate. I can't begin to think how I'd have coped with those feelings (on top of the usual teenage feelings of vulnerability and angst).

He went on to say that teaching children about homosexuality at school would lead to pupils being confused about which they should pick. It was ridiculous and to be fair to Holly, she did say she couldn't believe that he had just said that and didn't agree with him.

I still don't know why he was given the opportunity to spout his outdated feelings to the nation though.

To be honest, for me that WAS the teenage angst and vulnerability. I think all that comes from different experiences and we all have our own shit to deal with - mine was working out why I was gay, while other people have other things.

The whole teaching will lead to more gays things is baffling, though. I had very little teaching of homosexuality; if I had, I might have had a less angsty time.
 
BlueMooney said:
SWP's back said:
CoE vicar on "This Morning"

"I don't think we should encourage people to be proud they are gay"

Fuck off you ****. Bring back the lions and the arena.

Aged 14 whilst at high school, I very vividly remember all of my friends starting discussions about sex and girls and who they fancied. I didn't get any of it, I wasn't interested and just carried on minding my own business. As that school year went on, I realised why: I wasn't attracted to the girls like all of my other friends, but the lads.

For two whole years, I was terrified that people would find out. I wanted to be the same as my friends, I wanted to fancy the girls and I didn't want to be gay. I didn't want to spend every day in school worrying that people would discover my secret and use it as a weapon against me. I didn't want to have the threat of being beaten up because of the people that I found attractive. I didn't want to grow up into a world where, if I walk down the street holding the hand of a partner, I would get more noticeable looks and more people staring than if I was holding a girl's hand.

Every hour of every day was spent with torment trying to, firstly, work out what was going on in my brain and then, secondly, try and come to terms with it and accept it. I was fortunate that I never really hated that side of myself, but there are so many teenagers who do. Throw into the mix the number of young people who kill themselves because of their sexuality and the society they live in's reaction to it - bullied at school, disowned by parents or family.

And it's statements like this one made by some buffoon on TV that does nothing for the self-esteem of teenagers worrying about their sexuality and attitudes towards them from other teenagers.

*sigh*

A very heartfelt and honest post that should be compulsory reading for the narrow minded bigots on here who masquerade as caring Christians,and one that should make them reconsider their outdated and blinkered worldview and see just how out of touch the intolerant dogma of their church is with the reality of growing up as a gay person in today's society.
Sadly I am not holding my breath that it will make a jot of difference.
 

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