Another new Brexit thread

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

We have been asked to post with calmness and respect and not be insulting or argumentative

I think that MSC stands out as an exemplar of the requested behaviour

Such calmness is surely something that posters on both sides - myself included - should seek to emulate in my opinion.

I sometimes honestly think some people would like to inhabit an environment where any view but their own is shut down while they scream facist /marxist ( insert insult as required) at any who dare disagree. Nowt so funny as folk.

 

[Vic]

That is exactly the point I was making - thanks

There are established procedures and processes and nominated individuals that are responsible for the conducting of negotiations/interaction with our EU friends and partners - this would appear to be a seriously irresponsible act that can only undermine the UK government by inviting the EU to be involved in the drafting of legislation that is intended to constraining the UK government in its negotiations with the EU.

Leavers would be rightly shocked if the Leave supporting government acted outside the due processes and procedures - I would be surprised if Remainers have lower expectations of their representatives.

This government is 57 short of a majority. Why are they even still the government? In these circumstances, why should not the "loyal opposition" act in the interests of the country rather than the narrow party interests of the minority government?

 

[hgblue]

That is exactly the point I was making - thanks

There are established procedures and processes and nominated individuals that are responsible for the conducting of negotiations/interaction with our EU friends and partners - this would appear to be a seriously irresponsible act that can only undermine the UK government by inviting the EU to be involved in the drafting of legislation that is intended to constraining the UK government in its negotiations with the EU.

Leavers would be rightly shocked if the Leave supporting government acted outside the due processes and procedures - I would be surprised if Remainers have lower expectations of their representatives.

It’s actually worse than that, the EU have lied about the progress of talks in order to give the likes of Hammond and Stewart the justification to undermine their own country’s negotiating position.

 

[BobKowalski]

Really?? - that must be conveniently hoped for by Remainers

People that are open minded - i.e. not dyed in the wool Leave of Remain - might just wonder if the proof that government representatives have deliberately colluded with the other party in which the UK is seeking negotiate with on the drafting of legislation that will negate the capability of the UK to negotiate.

They may not be quick to draw lazy comparisons with such hard factual evidence of this having occurred with the rumours some people maybe/perhaps/considered whether...…..

I can see why Remainers would wish for such considerations to disappear under the weight of other rumours instigated as part of project fear

Personally I couldn’t give a shit. Whether it’s Remainers lobbying or working with EU countries or Leavers doing the exact same thing. Neither is illegal or especially noteworthy. All politicians network be it home or abroad. The only concerning aspect is idiots calling this behaviour collaboration or treasonous. It’s getting to the point where we will just end up shooting each other and save the EU the fucking bother.

 

[Rascal]

I sometimes honestly think some people would like to inhabit an environment where any view but their own is shut down while they scream facist /marxist ( insert insult as required) at any who dare disagree. Nowt so funny as folk.

Fascist is not an insult, Marxist is not an insult, its a lack of understanding of the ideologies.

One of my grandads was a committed Anti-Fascist and voted Tory all his life, my other Grandad was a committed Anti-Fascist and voted Labour all his life. Fascism is dangerous, they went through the second war fighting it. Yesterday we saw Fascists on Whitehall fighting the police and desecrating the Cenotaph, sadly hugely unreported in the media. Fascists will say "yeah but ANTIFA" and Trump will say mighty fine people.

On here Labour MPs like Corbyn and Mcdonell are described as Marxist with regularity, that's not an insult its a lack of knowledge and people have the right to call them Marxists as they do have Marxist tendencies. I will call Johnson a despot, because I believe he shows Fascist tendencies, that's not an insult , in my erstwhile opinion he does. That can be seen as a lack of knowledge on my behalf and I would welcome any challenge to my view.

I see what I believe to correct and call that out, it is not meant as an insult, it is a need for clarification and if they are Fascists then I will harangue them for it. If people believe I am a Marxist and i do not clarify it then I deserve to be called out for my views and I am regularly which is the right and proper way that democracy works and flourishes.

It is when you stop being able to call people out and are unable to ask for clarification of their views that it becomes dangerous because those views go unchallenged and an unchallenged view is a dangerous view as that view then becomes entrenched.

For democracy to work properly we have to able to deconstruct the arguments that people put forward and whilst I agree it can be clumsy and facile to call people fascist or marxist without reason I would support there right to do so as long as the right to reply and challenge remains intact. If it does not remain intact we slide into authoritarianism and a singular view prevails dependent on who controls the narrative and the who has the power to decide what is an insult and what is not.


And if anyone disagrees with me then you are a Fascist :))

 

[journolud]

It’s actually worse than that, the EU have lied about the progress of talks in order to give the likes of Hammond and Stewart the justification to undermine their own country’s negotiating position.

Can you provide a link to something that demonstrates the evidence for this? I'd be interested to see it.

 

[yerwot?]

And seriously this ‘oh look at me I’m being so even handed about all of this but I just can’t help but side with leave’ bollocks shite is fooling no one.[/QUOTE]
A turd wrapped in candy floss, is still a turd, a lie is still a lie, as time goes by .
Msc likes this x

 

[bluejon]

It’s actually worse than that, the EU have lied about the progress of talks in order to give the likes of Hammond and Stewart the justification to undermine their own country’s negotiating position.

Or maybe known liar Boris Johnson has been lying about the progress of talks? I know it's a complete outside possibility that a man who has constantly been caught lying about things is lying again, but maybe you should consider that too?

 

[hgblue]

Or maybe known liar Boris Johnson has been lying about the progress of talks? I know it's a complete outside possibility that a man who has constantly been caught lying about things is lying again, but maybe you should consider that too?

Must have been a mirage I saw in Berlin talking to Merkel and in Paris talking to Macron, making it clear that he wanted a deal and that the key to the deal was removing the backstop?

 

[Blue Hefner]

Must have been a mirage I saw in Berlin talking to Merkel and in Paris talking to Macron, making it clear that he wanted a deal and that the key to the deal was removing the backstop?

Which he can’t do because he hasn’t any reasonable and workable alternative