Another new Brexit thread

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Vic said:
And we have done a lot better in the EU. Seems fair enough.
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This is something so frequently forgotten, or ignored. The higher the living standards throughout the EU the more of our goods they are able and therefore likely to buy, which in turn, raises our living standards. That has to be worth £350 million a week of anyone’s money. Someone should put that on the side of a bus.
 
George Hannah said:
It was a referendum where both parties and sides assured us they would abide by and implement the result. 'Advisory' was a a mere technicality - on 9 June 2015, the then Foreign Secretary said the “decision about our membership should be taken by the British people, not by Whitehall bureaucrats, certainly not by Brussels Eurocrats; not even by Government Ministers or parliamentarians in this Chamber”.
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"Advisory was a mere technicality" bit like "telling the truth" then. Explains all we need to know about brexit-speak.
The "jury" who were asked to cast their vote, had been bombarded for years with anti-eu lies, too many to list, everyone knows them , not least the brexit BMers, but just "mere technicalities" apparently, fake news. Boris is the perfect fit......a wrongun leading the country, over a cliff, from the fuckn BACK ffs
 
Vic said:
‘No deal presents major problems and will cause difficulties for years to come...’

is what we agree on. Your other options are mere speculation on your belief about the long-term, and in the long-term we're all dead.
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Well - statement of the obvious?

Apart from death and taxes nothing is certain

I would definitely have confidence in my speculation ahead of what seems to be the parroting of the Remainer mantras I read on here.

My speculation comes from personal analysis rather than that being abdicated to the Guardian and Soulbury.
 
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kevin horlocks wand said:
Latest contributions released. Bargain.


Britain’s contribution to the EU has shot up by £2.6 billion per cent in the past 12 months, new Treasury figures show, as the UK’s growing economy was used to prop up Brussels’ budget.

An “eye-popping” £15.5 billion was sent across the Channel in the year ending March 31, compared with £12.9 billion the year before - an increase of 20 per cent.

The extra money would be enough to put 50,000 more police officers on the streets or fund 81,000 social care beds.

Brexiteers said the increase was yet more evidence that Britain must leave the EU as soon as possible to stop taxpayers’ money “pouring into bottomless EU coffers”.
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And if we Remain the costs will only keep going up as the EU keeps returning to its favourite milch cow to fund its lagesse
 
Rascal said:
I have just watched the panorama programme.

What astonishes me most is not the practicalities of the whole episode but the ego's of those involved. It is obvious to me that the good of the nation comes second to the good of the personal ego. Those who are the most intransigent have the biggest ego's and they are the most fearful of losing face. It is personal to them and we the people are not their concern. When you base your argument on who believes the most it is not putting the nations interests first, it is putting themselves first and it is putting their need for personal gratification in front of any collaborative outcome. As a nation we are being sacrificed upon the altars of there ego's and whether you voted leave or remain, whether you are a believer in a noble cause or not you do not matter. What matters is personal advancement and personal gain.

I am surprised by the fact that having watched it the only party I feel that really does do their voters proud is the DUP who are steadfast in their position and are not prepared to compromise on it. That is their right, they have to stand for their voters and respect the wishes of those who elected them. Mrs May who I believe to be one of the worst Prime Ministers in history actually comes out of the program quite well, she was obviously at the mercy of those whose ego's meant more to them than her efforts to deliver and I actually felt for her, as bad as she was she deserved better. The EU representatives on the program came out of it looking fair minded and balanced and they showed a far greater sense of affection towards the UK than I imagined from reading the media reports of the events. The guy who put forward the argument that the German car industry would not dream of making any demands because of the greater need for EU co-operation in a cultural and historical sense makes a point I really had not considered at great length, mainly because I suppose those with the ego's always assumed the German car industry would put there profits before the good of the EU and the media always side with the ego's not the practicalities.

It was quite a sober watch and I came out of it with a grim realisation that we as a nation have been manipulated in a way we have not been since the farcical times of the Iraq war debate. We are at the mercy of charlatans and whether you support Brexit or not that is not a good place to be. I didn't vote remain, I didn't vote leave, I abstained because my preferred option of greater EU integration and a federal EU was never an option. After last nights program I am more convinced then ever that we need to re-evaluate the whole episode and either leave with no deal or stay and push for a fully Federal EU with an elected President, a powerful elected legislature and a system of regional parliaments. The remain/status quo position is untenable, a second referendum would only serve the ego's and we deserve better than what we have been given.
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Agreed .... the fact that our ministers attempted to embarrass Barnier by seating him on a chair that wobbled was a total embarrassment......
 
kevin horlocks wand said:
Latest contributions released. Bargain.


Britain’s contribution to the EU has shot up by £2.6 billion per cent in the past 12 months, new Treasury figures show, as the UK’s growing economy was used to prop up Brussels’ budget.

An “eye-popping” £15.5 billion was sent across the Channel in the year ending March 31, compared with £12.9 billion the year before - an increase of 20 per cent.

The extra money would be enough to put 50,000 more police officers on the streets or fund 81,000 social care beds.

Brexiteers said the increase was yet more evidence that Britain must leave the EU as soon as possible to stop taxpayers’ money “pouring into bottomless EU coffers”.
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It is. We outsource an array of competences for less cost than if we tried to do it in house. This includes trade where we get shiny new trade deals with Korea, Japan and latterly Mercosur countries thereby boosting our economy. A lot of our money goes on developing poorer countries in the EU so that they can expand their economies and we can sell them shit. Mainly services in our case. Oh and a lot of the poorer regions are in the U.K. so areas that would never see a penny get some nice EU gifts.

Probably the best £15.5 billion we will ever spend. It’s what only 5 Chris Grayling cock-ups? Bargain.
 
bellbuzzer said:
"Advisory was a mere technicality" bit like "telling the truth" then. Explains all we need to know about brexit-speak.
The "jury" who were asked to cast their vote, had been bombarded for years with anti-eu lies, too many to list, everyone knows them , not least the brexit BMers, but just "mere technicalities" apparently, fake news. Boris is the perfect fit......a wrongun leading the country, over a cliff, from the fuckn BACK ffs
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Separation of ideas is quite important in any genuine discussion. What 'truths' the voting public were told before, during and after the referendum is a matter of legitimate debate but there is no question about the referendum decision to leave or not being binding on parliament. The grotesque spectacle of being offered a choice of government led by Boris or Jezzer is a sad indictment of our country.
 
Vic said:
And we have done a lot better in the EU. Seems fair enough.
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But not necessarily because of the EU

Great system - don't bother with such inconvenient trivia as ensuring that your accounts are signed off - just pop to one of your favorite milch cows whenever you feel the need for some more splurging
 
Vic said:
That's what I thought. Can't be true. Certainly only half a story...
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So if it is the simple truth thst the EU are imposing another levy - as they did I think in October 2015 - you will agrre that it is a disgusting piss-take?
 
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Rascal said:
I have just watched the panorama programme.

What astonishes me most is not the practicalities of the whole episode but the ego's of those involved. It is obvious to me that the good of the nation comes second to the good of the personal ego. Those who are the most intransigent have the biggest ego's and they are the most fearful of losing face. It is personal to them and we the people are not their concern. When you base your argument on who believes the most it is not putting the nations interests first, it is putting themselves first and it is putting their need for personal gratification in front of any collaborative outcome. As a nation we are being sacrificed upon the altars of there ego's and whether you voted leave or remain, whether you are a believer in a noble cause or not you do not matter. What matters is personal advancement and personal gain.

I am surprised by the fact that having watched it the only party I feel that really does do their voters proud is the DUP who are steadfast in their position and are not prepared to compromise on it. That is their right, they have to stand for their voters and respect the wishes of those who elected them. Mrs May who I believe to be one of the worst Prime Ministers in history actually comes out of the program quite well, she was obviously at the mercy of those whose ego's meant more to them than her efforts to deliver and I actually felt for her, as bad as she was she deserved better. The EU representatives on the program came out of it looking fair minded and balanced and they showed a far greater sense of affection towards the UK than I imagined from reading the media reports of the events. The guy who put forward the argument that the German car industry would not dream of making any demands because of the greater need for EU co-operation in a cultural and historical sense makes a point I really had not considered at great length, mainly because I suppose those with the ego's always assumed the German car industry would put there profits before the good of the EU and the media always side with the ego's not the practicalities.

It was quite a sober watch and I came out of it with a grim realisation that we as a nation have been manipulated in a way we have not been since the farcical times of the Iraq war debate. We are at the mercy of charlatans and whether you support Brexit or not that is not a good place to be. I didn't vote remain, I didn't vote leave, I abstained because my preferred option of greater EU integration and a federal EU was never an option. After last nights program I am more convinced then ever that we need to re-evaluate the whole episode and either leave with no deal or stay and push for a fully Federal EU with an elected President, a powerful elected legislature and a system of regional parliaments. The remain/status quo position is untenable, a second referendum would only serve the ego's and we deserve better than what we have been given.
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I like this post a lot. I favour the U.K. becoming more integrated with the EU and an EU run on more federal lines but I do wonder if this post also encapsulates a degree of British exceptionalism and hubris that kind of got us into this mess in the first place. It’s the demand that 27 other countries agree to the way we think the EU should be set up and run or we leave. The thing about the the EU project is that every country is a stakeholder and every country has a view and a voice so by its very nature the EU will be a horse designed by a committee and that desirable change will always be incremental and that major change will only come when enough of the 28 countries are ready to take that next leap forward.

If we concede that the core of the EU project is not to repeat the horrors of the last century then surely taking a purist view of what the EU should be ‘or else’ is ultimately self defeating. We can’t help build something if we continually threaten to leave everytime it doesn’t go the way we want. We can’t tell 27 other countries that we will remain but only if they agree to do it the way we see fit because ultimately they will tell us, as they did with Cameron, to ‘get over ourselves’ and we end up with the Brexit shitshow which isn’t doing anyone any favours right now.

And here is the other thing. You didn’t vote because it didn’t give you the option you wanted? Really? Isn’t that the kind of arrogance that got us into this mess? A bloc of 28 countries trying to put together a project to remove barriers to trade and between people isn’t being run the way you want so screw it? Doesn’t even the attempt merit a begrudging vote for it?
 
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