Another new Brexit thread

[smudgedj]

I genuinely don't understand your point so apologies if it was obvious.

Just a question. If brexit is a shambles and that means we should even partially blame Corbyn does that mean if it's a success we should give him credit?

Brexit, and the future this country has because of it is ONLY and SOLELY the responsibility of the Tory party.

If the country ends up no poorer, with control over all of her laws and all of her territorial fishing grounds as well as total control of her immigration then I'll happily say well done to the Tories.
If the economy for whatever reason takes a downturn or we still have to cede co tell over any of the above for example I shall criticise them.

Jeremy is completely blameless for the outcome as indeed he would be for its successes.

The Tories own this. All of it. 100%.

No blame on Corbyn.
Corbyn can have some credit for not voting through Mays deal.
Yes. The Tories own this.

 

[west didsblue]

I think a few people are mixing up the blame for Brexit happening at all with the blame for the consequences of Brexit.

Corbyn is fully complicit in helping Brexit happen for two reasons. He disappeared in the run up to the referendum (presumably because instinctively he is anti-EU) and secondly he had the opportunity to force a second ref but instead went for an election that he was clearly going to lose. He should have resigned after losing to May in 2017 and let a real leader take over who had the ability to think strategically.

On the other hand the consequences are fairly and squarely the responsibility of Johnson and the Tories as it is their WA and it will be their trade deal (if they manage to negotiate one).

 

[Ban-jani]

It’s Christmas Eve lads, why are people arguing over this?

I hope every single person in this thread is more than well and are looking forward to a fantastic day tomorrow.

 

[Vic]

Because it wasn’t clear to them. This is because people on the hard left usually suffer from a complete absence of political empathy that borders on the sociopathic; assuming their views are the only ones with any legitimacy and conspicuously failing to appreciate how anyone can hold different views. This is manifestly arrogant. This is also a form of mental disorder that has twice translated into electing leaders (Foot, Corbyn) who enable right-wing governments. This mental disorder is accentuated by the echo-chamber that they inhabit, interacting as they frequently do, pretty much exclusively with others who share their Weltanschauung.

So I’ll happily rephrase my statement:

“It was clearly never going to happen to anyone not suffering from a mental disorder”

Yet Chippy justifies his Brexit conversion by the threat that it might have happened.

Hard means leaving and soft means remain.

It's pure bollocks they have clung to for the last 3 years.

Leaving always meant leaving the SM and CU it is that simple.

Except to the Leave campaign that said we would stay in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border.

Exactly as Cameron and so many others made crystal clear at the time

And the Leave campaign didn't.

I bet you really get behind the team on match days.

With that attitude, I’m not surprised you share that view about your level of input. I believe we can all play our part, however small. The same was true in 1939.

Who's the enemy? Do I have permission to play my part in getting a deal that means we will still be in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border?

Merry Christmas to you too mate.

No one is a **** for what party they support in this country, with the BNP gone.

It’s just difference of opinion.

The people who voted for the BNP didn't stop voting.

It’s Christmas Eve lads, why are people arguing over this?

I hope every single person in this thread is more than well and are looking forward to a fantastic day tomorrow.

I agree....

 

[Ban-jani]

Yet Chippy justifies his Brexit conversion by the threat that it might have happened.



Except to the Leave campaign that said we would stay in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border.


And the Leave campaign didn't.



Who's the enemy? Do I have permission to play my part in getting a deal that means we will still be in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border?


The people who voted for the BNP didn't stop voting.



I agree....

They likely found home in Labour, due to their similarly held views on Jews, to a minority but loud part of the party.

Anyway Merry Christmas.

 

[mancity2012_eamo]

Merry Christmas ye filthy animals.

 

[mcfc1632]

You voted for brexit. And I voted for brexit. I did so knowing full well that meant leaving the SM and the CU. Anything else would have been called a Brino brexit.

If it goes well I'll happily give it's architects credit. If it crashes and burns I'll criticise them.

One person I won't be blaming is Jeremy Corbyn. The whole brexit situation is the full and total responsibility of the Tory government. Just them. Nobody but them. And only them.

​

This^.
You heard the man @mcfc1632.
Own it.

No blame on Corbyn.

Corbyn can have some credit for not voting through Mays deal.
Yes. The Tories own this.​

@Kazzydeyna & @smudgedj
I will answer your posts as others such as @Len Rum and @west didsblue are clearly too lost in their need to deliberately mis-read and hope to find fault that they are are incapabe of objectivity

I am saying essentially the same as you - and indeed others on here, that from a Leaver perspective Corbyn deserves enormous credit. If he had acted differently during the votes on May's deal or in the run-up to the GE we would not be in this happy position. But one mans giving credit is another mans laying blame etc. because:

a) following the GE and now able to be free of the machinations of the Westminster charlatans, the UK is about to enter the implementation phase and the current Conservative government must be fully responsible for the outcome from this point forwards - nobody else can be blamed other than them from January 2020 - is that clear??

but...….. The point I make is how we got to the position we now enjoy and Jezza deserves much credit/responsibility/blame

b) Because until recently the situation was that the power at Westminster has not reesided with the government. For months it has been entirely possible for the opposition parties to come together - win a VONC - form a Government of National Unity - hold a 2nd referendum and potentially stop Brexit. They could have done that rather than accede to a GE. That is surely just plain and simple facts that cannot be disputed by anyone that has any grasp of reality - but........

c) There was only one requirement for this to have all be done and that was for Jeremy Corbyn to agree to step aside and let another leader of the Labour Party - even if only for a defined and temporary period - take on the mantle of PM. Someone that was acceptable to the other parties.

Had Corbyn done that - the government would have been overthrown - and the rest mentioned above could have followed - but.....

d) Corbyn would not do that - it was entirely within his gift and power to act to bring the government down and potentially stop Brexit - no ifs and no buts - he had it in his grasp.

But instead he served his self-interest in seeking to be PM. He served his self interests in placing his agenda/manifesto ahead of stopping Brexit - that is on him.

He chose to have the GE and hope that he could be in a position to implement the policies that he has held so dear for so long. He took that gamble in the full knowledge that should it go badly wrong - then it was possible that a Tory government committed to a 'Genuine Brexit' could be returned and then all shackles and constraints that could limit the scope of Brexit would be removed.

Nobody should lie to themselves - Corbyn bet the Remainer house and lost - he did it because he put his ambitions ahead of stopping Brexit.

Those that try to twist the words of others and portray the facts to be other than they are should stop being deceitful

What I have typed above is a simple statement of the facts and therefore...…..

Call it - giving credit - apportioning blame - identifying who is responsible or any other description that suits - the simple fact is that if Corbyn had chosen to step aside - then the government would have fallen and we would not be here facing whatever shape of Brexit that Johnson decides on. And for sure - that shape is certainly going to be harder than had previously been likely an option.

We would not have the genuine risk/opportunity of a No-Deal in 11 months etc. etc

Corbyn and only Corbyn took that decision to not act on what would have been a certain collapse of the government and a road to a 2nd referendum. He owns that - just as he owns the decisions not to support May's WA (thank fuck).

Personally I give him enormous credit and thanks - I was so hoping for the Remain alliance to fuck it up - but did not expect them to do it so spectacularly.

I applaud his self-serving actions and rejoice that against all odds the leaders of Leave are free of the constraints that Westminster had imposed - fucking well done Jeremy I say!!! The only route to the positive position that Brexit starts 2020 in was if you acted as a self-serving **** - bravo!!

If I was a Remainer though I would be feeling less charitable

So - simple fact is that from January 2020 whatever happens is down to the management of the Tories - and nobody else to blame, but......

That we start 2020 in a position of a genuine Brexit being now a given and, if necessary, it may lead to a 'very-hard' or even a No-Deal' is in no small part down to Jeremy Corbyn and all Leavers should acknowledge him
​

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

The Tories have been in govt for ten years. Part of the price you pay for that success is losing the get out of jail card of blaming the last govt/opposition. Brexit is a purely tory construct and as such the success or otherwise of leaving the EU falls on them. If it turns to shit then it's their fault, if it goes well as I think/hope it will then they deserve full credit and probably another GE victory. If it all goes to shit it's fuck all to do with corbyn.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I think a few people are mixing up the blame for Brexit happening at all with the blame for the consequences of Brexit.

Corbyn is fully complicit in helping Brexit happen for two reasons. He disappeared in the run up to the referendum (presumably because instinctively he is anti-EU) and secondly he had the opportunity to force a second ref but instead went for an election that he was clearly going to lose. He should have resigned after losing to May in 2017 and let a real leader take over who had the ability to think strategically.

On the other hand the consequences are fairly and squarely the responsibility of Johnson and the Tories as it is their WA and it will be their trade deal (if they manage to negotiate one).

That’s a completely fair distinction there, mate.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Nobody should lie to themselves - Corbyn bet the Remainer house and lost - he did it because he but his ambitions ahead of stopping Brexit.
​

Playing with other peoples' chips is an easy gamble. He never wanted Remain in the first place so gambling it was a no brainer. He either wins a GE and doesn't get his Brexit but becomes PM. Or he loses the GE and gets the Brexit he's always wanted.

Win - win from his perspective.

 

[mcfc1632]

The Tories have been in govt for ten years. Part of the price you pay for that success is losing the get out of jail card of blaming the last govt/opposition. Brexit is a purely tory construct and as such the success or otherwise of leaving the EU falls on them. If it turns to shit then it's their fault, if it goes well as I think/hope it will then they deserve full credit and probably another GE victory. If it all goes to shit it's fuck all to do with corbyn.

I am being clear that the outcome of Brexit from this point in time is entirely down to Johnson........ But

How we got to where we are and the options that may now unfold has been shaped a lot my the actions of Remainers and Corbyn. We could be here at the start of 2020 with the softest of Brexits already a legally binding deal - simple facts and not disputable

I am simply stating the fact that if Corbyn had acted when he had the opportunity - several times - then there simply would not be the possibility of a 'genuine Brexit' let alone 'No-Deal'

I say well done to him - I am surprised that Remainers are not thoroughly pissed off with him.

Anyway - Merry Xmas and

 

[Kazzydeyna]

@Kazzydeyna & @smudgedj
I will answer your posts as others such as @Len Rum and @west didsblue are clearly too lost in their need to deliberately mis-read and hope to find fault that they are are incapabe of objectivity

I am saying essentially the same as you - and indeed others on here, that from a Leaver perspective Corbyn deserves enormous credit. If he had acted differently during the votes on May's deal or in the run-up to the GE we would not be in this happy position. But one mans giving credit is another mans laying blame etc. because:

a) following the GE and now able to be free of the machinations of the Westminster charlatans, the UK is about to enter the implementation phase and the current Conservative government must be fully responsible for the outcome from this point forwards - nobody else can be blamed other than them from January 2020 - is that clear??

but...….. The point I make is how we got to the position we now enjoy and Jezza deserves much credit/responsibility/blame

b) Because until recently the situation was that the power at Westminster has not reesided with the government. For months it has been entirely possible for the opposition parties to come together - win a VONC - form a Government of National Unity - hold a 2nd referendum and potentially stop Brexit. They could have done that rather than accede to a GE. That is surely just plain and simple facts that cannot be disputed by anyone that has any grasp of reality - but........

c) There was only one requirement for this to have all be done and that was for Jeremy Corbyn to agree to step aside and let another leader of the Labour Party - even if only for a defined and temporary period - take on the mantle of PM. Someone that was acceptable to the other parties.

Had Corbyn done that - the government would have been overthrown - and the rest mentioned above could have followed - but.....

d) Corbyn would not do that - it was entirely within his gift and power to act to bring the government down and potentially stop Brexit - no ifs and no buts - he had it in his grasp.

But instead he served his self-interest in seeking to be PM. He served his self interests in placing his agenda/manifesto ahead of stopping Brexit - that is on him.

He chose to have the GE and hope that he could be in a position to implement the policies that he has held so dear for so long. He took that gamble in the full knowledge that should it go badly wrong - then it was possible that a Tory government committed to a 'Genuine Brexit' could be returned and then all shackles and constraints that could limit the scope of Brexit would be removed.

Nobody should lie to themselves - Corbyn bet the Remainer house and lost - he did it because he put his ambitions ahead of stopping Brexit.

Those that try to twist the words of others and portray the facts to be other than they are should stop being deceitful

What I have typed above is a simple statement of the facts and therefore...…..

Call it - giving credit - apportioning blame - identifying who is responsible or any other description that suits - the simple fact is that if Corbyn had chosen to step aside - then the government would have fallen and we would not be here facing whatever shape of Brexit that Johnson decides on. And for sure - that shape is certainly going to be harder than had previously been likely an option.

We would not have the genuine risk/opportunity of a No-Deal in 11 months etc. etc

Corbyn and only Corbyn took that decision to not act on what would have been a certain collapse of the government and a road to a 2nd referendum. He owns that - just as he owns the decisions not to support May's WA (thank fuck).

Personally I give him enormous credit and thanks - I was so hoping for the Remain alliance to fuck it up - but did not expect them to do it so spectacularly.

I applaud his self-serving actions and rejoice that against all odds the leaders of Leave are free of the constraints that Westminster had imposed - fucking well done Jeremy I say!!! The only route to the positive position that Brexit starts 2020 in was if you acted as a self-serving **** - bravo!!

If I was a Remainer though I would be feeling less charitable

So - simple fact is that from January 2020 whatever happens is down to the management of the Tories - and nobody else to blame, but......

That we start 2020 in a position of a genuine Brexit being now a given and, if necessary, it may lead to a 'very-hard' or even a No-Deal' is in no small part down to Jeremy Corbyn and all Leavers should acknowledge him
​

Good man, and I agree with most of what you write particularly the bit that says if no deal is a terrible failure (fwiw I don't think it has to be, indeed with good govt it could be the making of this country) then the Tories and only the Tories will be to blame , and conversely if it's a roaring success the Tories and only the Tories should reap the electoral rewards.

On Jeremy, and you won't agree with this I think!, My criticism of him isn't that he backed remain so vehemently as I don't believe he actually does, it's that he was too weak in facing down the liberal hard-right of his party in the first place and not arguing more forcefully for a leave position. I suspect he might regret that himself these days.

Anyway, it's Christmas day, so goodwill and good health to you and yours.

 

[blueinsa]

Except to the Leave campaign that said we would stay in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border.

The leave campaign where just that, a campaign and they where not in power, not the government and not in a position to enact on anything.

Cameron was and he said a vote to leave meant leaving the SM and the CU and trading on WTO.

Merry Christmas Vic to you and yours mate.

All the best.

 

[Ban-jani]

Good man, and I agree with most of what you write particularly the bit that says if no deal is a terrible failure (fwiw I don't think it has to be, indeed with good govt it could be the making of this country) then the Tories and only the Tories will be to blame , and conversely if it's a roaring success the Tories and only the Tories should reap the electoral rewards.

On Jeremy, and you won't agree with this I think!, My criticism of him isn't that he backed remain so vehemently as I don't believe he actually does, it's that he was too weak in facing down the liberal hard-right of his party in the first place and not arguing more forcefully for a leave position. I suspect he might regret that himself these days.

Anyway, it's Christmas day, so goodwill and good health to you and yours.

Hard-right haha.

 

[Vic]

The leave campaign where just that, a campaign and they where not in power, not the government and not in a position to enact on anything.

Cameron was and he said a vote to leave meant leaving the SM and the CU and trading on WTO.

Merry Christmas Vic to you and yours mate.

All the best.

Thanks for the greetings - they are reciprocated, but....good grief. On the Vote Leave campaign committee were (among others): Gove, Johnson, Cummings, Fox, Leadsom, Duncan Smith, Leadsom, Patel, Raab. They all signed up to telling us that if we left the EU we would still be in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border. An immoral bunch of liars.

I bang on about this because the project fear stuff was prediction (perhaps over the top but may yet prove not far off) but that promise was an outright lie (unless they did mean it but then having won the referendum abandoned it for their version of a hard Brexit), and the only time it's been acknowledged was Gove last March saying he couldn't support No Deal because of that promise. He's abandoned that stance now of course.

And I will mention it whenever people repeat the claim that anyone on any Leave campaign was advocating leaving on WTO terms.

Even if Remainers warned about it, Leave dismissed it as part of project fear.

 

[west didsblue]

The leave campaign where just that, a campaign and they where not in power, not the government and not in a position to enact on anything.

Cameron was and he said a vote to leave meant leaving the SM and the CU and trading on WTO.

Merry Christmas Vic to you and yours mate.

All the best.

Cameron was campaigning to remain and was trying to paint Leave as an extreme viewpoint. Seems he was right.

Happy Boxing Day!

 

[Mazzarelli's Swiss Cheese]

Thanks for the greetings - they are reciprocated, but....good grief. On the Vote Leave campaign committee were (among others): Gove, Johnson, Cummings, Fox, Leadsom, Duncan Smith, Leadsom, Patel, Raab. They all signed up to telling us that if we left the EU we would still be in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border. An immoral bunch of liars.

I bang on about this because the project fear stuff was prediction (perhaps over the top but may yet prove not far off) but that promise was an outright lie (unless they did mean it but then having won the referendum abandoned it for their version of a hard Brexit), and the only time it's been acknowledged was Gove last March saying he couldn't support No Deal because of that promise. He's abandoned that stance now of course.

And I will mention it whenever people repeat the claim that anyone on any Leave campaign was advocating leaving on WTO terms.

Even if Remainers warned about it, Leave dismissed it as part of project fear.

Don't disagree with any of that. The problem is though that you are essentially deciding which are the best/worst lies according to your beliefs. You need to understand that the leave voters did the same but decided 'project fear' was lies and Gove and co were just making over the top predictions.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Thanks for the greetings - they are reciprocated, but....good grief. On the Vote Leave campaign committee were (among others): Gove, Johnson, Cummings, Fox, Leadsom, Duncan Smith, Leadsom, Patel, Raab. They all signed up to telling us that if we left the EU we would still be in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border. An immoral bunch of liars.

I bang on about this because the project fear stuff was prediction (perhaps over the top but may yet prove not far off) but that promise was an outright lie (unless they did mean it but then having won the referendum abandoned it for their version of a hard Brexit), and the only time it's been acknowledged was Gove last March saying he couldn't support No Deal because of that promise. He's abandoned that stance now of course.

And I will mention it whenever people repeat the claim that anyone on any Leave campaign was advocating leaving on WTO terms.

Even if Remainers warned about it, Leave dismissed it as part of project fear.

Re your "we would still be in a free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border" comment, will you be happy when we have an FTA which provides this?

We have not failed to get it yet. Boris wants a deal and will do his utmost to get one, and provided he continues to have some teeth to his negotiating position, has a very good chance of getting it.

 

[Vic]

Cameron was campaigning to remain and was trying to paint Leave as an extreme viewpoint. Seems he was right.

Happy Boxing Day!

Actually it was a bit pantomime season.

Official government leaflet: Leaving the EU means leaving the SM and CU.

Official Leave campaign: Oh no it doesn't.

The Leave campaign actually was right. But it's the Leave campaign that denied it and then worked toward it, and started saying some of us are OK with that (and if you think it's just as a negotiating ploy you can join the cast as a pantomime villain).

Speaking of Dominic Cummings, he's behind you.

 

[Vic]

Don't disagree with any of that. The problem is though that you are essentially deciding which are the best/worst lies according to your beliefs. You need to understand that the leave voters did the same but decided 'project fear' was lies and Gove and co were just making over the top predictions.

The only predictions Leave made was that it wouldn't be as bad as Remain said. Au contraire, it would be sunlit uplands.

They'd managed to do what Cummings suggested and "swerved" the questions about what would happen next (the "how" of leaving).

It is significant that Leavers, having won, started denying that anyone promised sunlit uplands. This thread was typical - it will be horrible but we can dig for victory, defeat the enemy (which shifts between the EU itself and those who were trying to stop Brexit).

You will have to excuse us, having lost again, from becoming cheerleaders for this small-minded (small-island) nonsense.