Are we really a democracy?

blueparrot said:
Well I think that occurs because we have a bad system IMO. I don't understand why when we had the chance we didn't change it, seems daft to me. Nothing I can do about that though.
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Tough one but we had the chance like you say, only 42% could be arsed enough to bother to vote of those that could nearly 70% didn't want it to change democracy in action I would say.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
Don’t presume to understand how I’m thinking. I don’t take any of those things for granted, so you’re talking utter shit there for a start.

I’ve recently moved from the pretty much safest Labour seat in the country (Birmingham Ladywood, MP secured 79% of the vote) to one of the safest Tory seats outside the South East (Stratford on Avon, MP secured 62% of the vote).

There is literally no point in me voting in a general election in either. Total waste of fucking time.

Each MP will vote principally as their whips tell them to, not in the best interests of their constituents (especially Zahawi, who is an ambitious minister) unless those two matters happen to elide.

If you think that’s the best system we can devise, then good for you, but in my opinion tbe appalling state of our politics and the paucity of discernIble talent within it, even at cabinet level, is a direct consequence of this 19th century system thst isn’t fit for purpose, and our decline as a nation will continue as long as it subsists.

It served a purpose once, but it’s done.
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This is turning into a discussion about the voting system, not democracy itself, but the democratic process delivered a referendum which put the pros and cons to the public and asked them to decide. When this was done PR was decisively rejected.

You're fighting an uphill battle, not because democracy doesn't work, but because the people of this country don't agree with you. If they did, democracy would have delivered a change and people like me who prefer the current system would have had to accept it. That's my point.
 
blueparrot said:
That's what I said. Think we should be asked a little more often though what type of democracy we want.
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That sounds a bit like I don't like the result I want to change the rules, I'd prefer to ask to what's the party I support doing wrong as to not convince the electorate to vote for them.
 
hgblue said:
This is turning into a discussion about the voting system, not democracy itself, but the democratic process delivered a referendum which put the pros and cons to the public and asked them to decide. When this was done PR was decisively rejected.

You're fighting an uphill battle, not because democracy doesn't work, but because the people of this country don't agree with you. If they did, democracy would have delivered a change and people like me who prefer the current system would have had to accept it. That's my point.
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We didn't have a PR referendum. AV is not considered a proportional voting method.

en.m.wikipedia.org

Instant-runoff voting - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
 
i kne albert davy said:
I prefer to think as first passed the post keeps the nutcase fringes where they belong which isn't the houses of Parliament, if they have anything other than minority following fair enough they gain representation. Our system of democracy may not be perfect but until somebody comes up with something better I'll live with it.
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Yes, most of Northern Europe already have come up with a better method. That is the point.

If you are strongly in favour of keeping first-past-the-post, you ought to learn how to spell it properly :)
 
Without PR, I don’t think we are or could be the best form of democracy. There are too many voters that don’t have a representative voice in our parliament.

The problem is the people that should know better will never change that though.
 
i kne albert davy said:
That sounds a bit like I don't like the result I want to change the rules, I'd prefer to ask to what's the party I support doing wrong as to not convince the electorate to vote for them.
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Okay, but when the decision on whether to hold another vote is held by the party that benefits and holds absolute power with 40% or less of the vote. When do we get the chance to be asked again. 10 years . 20 years . never ?
I 'm not,but lets presume I was a labour voter. They convince 30% of the electorate to vote for them compared to the tory 40%. Yet the 40% are wholly represtented in decision making the 30% Lbour voters not at all. Nor are the other 30% that voted differently. How can it be right the 40% get to influence the lives of the 60%. Just seems inherently unfair.
 
blueparrot said:
Okay, but when the decision on whether to hold another vote is held by the party that benefits and holds absolute power with 40% or less of the vote. When do we get the chance to be asked again. 10 years . 20 years . never ?
I 'm not,but lets presume I was a labour voter. They convince 30% of the electorate to vote for them compared to the tory 40%. Yet the 40% are wholly represtented in decision making the 30% Lbour voters not at all. Nor are the other 30% that voted differently. How can it be right the 40% get to influence the lives of the 60%. Just seems inherently unfair.
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I agree with you not perfect, I am a natural Labour voter I'll admit I couldn't bring myself to vote for them last time as they were unelectable even against the nut who's in power now. Its just what PR can lead to worries me as GDM i think was trying to point out PR lead to the greatest evil this planets ever known at least first past the post never allows these to have a legitimate voice.
 
Rascal said:
The PM has always been in our democracy the first amongst equals, he is not in effect the leader of the country but the first minister in the cabinet that answers to the head of state

I thought brexit was the correct course of action because i am a democrat, i believe in the democratic process. However, is democracy really served when there are unelected advisor's helping to make policy on our behalf. We have outside interests influencing political direction, from big business to special interest groups, none of of who have democratic mandates. The media has undue influence and whilst i support a free press, i do not support an unduly partisan press that uses its influence to set the political agenda. I did not vote for a media baron to run the country.


As a Communist i believe in democracy, democracy in every facet of life, we should have the ability to decide not only on a national level, but on a level of how my little close of 25 houses decides whats best for us as a community to how the nation is run on our behalf.


Our country has been run by Governments with minority of votes for generations, how can that be right. If a country is run by the 34% who voted for , the 66% who voted differently are disenfranchised.

Has our voting system produced a tyranny of the minority or is it fair that the minority have the greater say and the majority just have to suck it up.


Basically the question is this.

Is our democracy fit for purpose?
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No it’s not but people keep voting for it
 
i kne albert davy said:
I agree with you not perfect, I am a natural Labour voter I'll admit I couldn't bring myself to vote for them last time as they were unelectable even against the nut who's in power now. Its just what PR can lead to worries me as GDM i think was trying to point out PR lead to the greatest evil this planets ever known at least first past the post never allows these to have a legitimate voice.
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It shouldn’t with the right safeguards, and would guess PR is more widely used around the world than pure fptp, without any issues like nazi Germany.
 
i kne albert davy said:
I agree with you not perfect, I am a natural Labour voter I'll admit I couldn't bring myself to vote for them last time as they were unelectable even against the nut who's in power now. Its just what PR can lead to worries me as GDM i think was trying to point out PR lead to the greatest evil this planets ever known at least first past the post never allows these to have a legitimate voice.
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I struggle to see how people actually believe this guff about them being unelectable. Left-wing parties usually moderate when in power anyway. Brazil's Lula Da Silva was a far more revolutionary politician than Corbyn but accepted that they had to work within the system.

The complete opposite of this is the Conservatives in recent times, they haven't moderated. They stoke invented culture wars, bash immigrants and prolong tensions with the EU solely for their own electoral interests.


He wasn't talking about Nazi Germany he was talking about the post-war return to PR. Ironically if there was FPTP in Germany it would have been even easier for them to become the governing party.

In Germany’s July 1932 election, the Nazis secured 37.27% of the vote, a higher percentage than our current government enjoys –yet they still couldn’t form a government. Hermann Goering argued in his war crimes trial that, under the British system, with 37.27% of the vote the Nazis would have won every seat in the Reichstag at this election*. As they couldn’t take full control legally, the Nazis simply arrested all the Communist deputies and changed the rules to make it easier to pass the Enabling Act in 1933.
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www.electoral-reform.org.uk

Did Proportional Representation put the Nazis in power?

Probably the first time many of us heard of Proportional Representation (PR) was in a school classroom studying the Second World War. For some people this may have been the last time
www.electoral-reform.org.uk www.electoral-reform.org.uk
 
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Rascal said:
The PM has always been in our democracy the first amongst equals, he is not in effect the leader of the country but the first minister in the cabinet that answers to the head of state

I thought brexit was the correct course of action because i am a democrat, i believe in the democratic process. However, is democracy really served when there are unelected advisor's helping to make policy on our behalf. We have outside interests influencing political direction, from big business to special interest groups, none of of who have democratic mandates. The media has undue influence and whilst i support a free press, i do not support an unduly partisan press that uses its influence to set the political agenda. I did not vote for a media baron to run the country.


As a Communist i believe in democracy, democracy in every facet of life, we should have the ability to decide not only on a national level, but on a level of how my little close of 25 houses decides whats best for us as a community to how the nation is run on our behalf.


Our country has been run by Governments with minority of votes for generations, how can that be right. If a country is run by the 34% who voted for , the 66% who voted differently are disenfranchised.

Has our voting system produced a tyranny of the minority or is it fair that the minority have the greater say and the majority just have to suck it up.


Basically the question is this.

Is our democracy fit for purpose?
Click to expand...
I guess its only a problem when you dont get the government you want. PR is the way to go, but turkeys dont vote for Christmas.
 
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