Article 50/Brexit Negotiations

[Vic]

There really is a dearth of talent in politics today isn't there.

On the Labour side you have Diane Abbott on the front bench, which frankly beggars belief. John McDonnell with his "fully costed, but nevertheless financially incompetent" budget. Corbyn is starting to look half normal. Ish.

And on the Tory side, it's as bad if not worse.

Where are the Heseltines, the Portillos, the Blairs, Browns. Hell even the somewhat odious Charles Kennedy was a competent if not pissed politician. I thought Nick Clegg was pretty good, and now he's not even an MP.

Heseltine's on telly saying Brexit is a cancer.

 

[cibaman]

I agree - I view it as they view it as something that will happen as a result of everything else tied to it, and then needing something to replace it.
Without UKIP's immigration-driven grandstanding, the economic concerns are more important now.

the crossparty, UK-wide involvement that is now required is a good thing too.

Hopefully May has deleted "The Winner Takes it All" from her playlist and replaced it with "Lets Work Together"

 

[Chris in London]

Heseltine's on telly saying Brexit is a cancer.

I have no problem with the Heseltines and Ken Clarkes of this world. They were part of the government that presided over Britain's shift from a manufacturing economy to a service economy. They recognise what the departure of the UK from the single market will do to the nation's economy as a result of the uK being no longer able to provide financial services to the other EU states. What gets me is a dickhead like a David Davis who was an unalloyed Thatcherite and stood by cheering as our national economy became more and more dependent on the City of London but now seems hell bent on preventing the City from accessing its most lucrative market.

 

[Ban-jani]

I slept on this. I can't see anyone who hates Britain. Some may not see the point of policies that would seem to benefit Britain at the expense of the rest of the world (we've given up visions of empire) but the real wreckers are those who happily say they'd put up with a worse economy so long as we didn't have to be in the EU.

He does, he's constantly wanting the UK to fail because of Brexit and be he seemed disappointed when there wasn't a recession following the vote.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Heseltine's on telly saying Brexit is a cancer.

Good. He's not wrong. Patients recover from cancer of course and sometimes go to lead happy lives, but no-one chooses it. Nor gets over it without significant hardship first.

 

[stonerblue]

Good. He's not wrong. Patients recover from cancer of course and sometimes go to lead happy lives, but no-one chooses it. Nor gets over it without significant hardship first.

50% recover for ten years or more. 50% die.

 

[Chippy_boy]

the real wreckers are those who happily say they'd put up with a worse economy so long as we didn't have to be in the EU.

And there's PLENTY of those around.

I want to blame my politicians who I voted for take the blame and the credit for whatever ails the country I want to hold them directly and personally responsible. I can quote examples of useless edicts from the EU like the crap lightbulbs and the prevention of not recycling teabags but these are easily circumvented household by household.

Here is a small list I have picked a paper that is a bit left leaning to try to be impartial.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...eu-laws-we-will-miss-in-britain-a7103031.html

Now don't get me wrong I am not suggesting for one minute that our own governments don't make laws that are absurd or unworkable but at least they are made by a government I elected and have a voice to remove. The looming notion of an EU military and Merkel banging the drum for even more political and legal integration which would effectively ensure our position as a servile state which will in effect be at the whim of whatever barmpot holds control in Brussels.

Immigration and the free movement of any EU citizen to this country undercuts pay conditions and rights of British citizens even Corbyn has reflected on that publicly and has stated that these conditions need reworking, it all depends on how the EU react to proposals but that doesn't look good because all Cameron got was a smacked backside, the inference is that if you're in it you're in it lock stock and barrel.

As for nurses? We need to train more, improve working conditions and actually employ staff for the NHS strategically as and when we need them IF we don't have the qualified staff we have trained ourselves. The NHS needs work we know that and it's our government that needs to stop blowing smoke and deliver on realistic targets for British trained NHS staff at all levels.

Lastly I am a patriot but a weird combination of being labelled a "Little Englander" but with a real social conscience, I would gladly lose some of my not very affluent lifestyle to improve the lot of other British people but at the same time love my flag (I know it's socially considered to be akin to being a Nazi by some) this doesn't make me a scoundrel as the famous quote suggests, it makes me a product of my time of birth and environment mixed with a cultural need of belonging.

In short I don't trust the EU bureaucrats and I don't trust our career politicians who themselves have feathered their own nests for too long, but at least I have the veneer of democracy that affords me a skewed attempt at removing villains when I see them from our democratic process. I'm English-British-UK and strange as it seems I want to keep that and work through any problems that arise as and when they pop up.

Sorry I missed your reply and we've moved on a bit. But in essense what you appear to be saying is that in your opinion, the pitiful amount of influence you have on the legislation acted upon you by a British government, is nevertheless greater than the even smaller influence you have on influencing EU legislation.

And therefore the uncertainty, cost, upheaval, risk of loss of jobs (imo cast iron certainty, not risk) and generally depression of our living standards is worth it, in return for that. That seems to be about the size of it?

I don't remember the last time I voted for anything and it making an atom of difference. And that goes back as far as voting for the school prefect. In terms of voting for Governments? Of course my vote makes the square root of bugger all difference. It doesn't even influence what MP I get.

So this idea that you get more say in what you want, for me, is a bit like saying I'll play the National Lottery instead of Euro millions because I am more likely to win the National Lottery. i.e. a correct assumption, but in reality, irrelevant.

The pain of leaving is simply not worth the hassle imo. Of course I respect your views, however.

 

[Chippy_boy]

50% recover for ten years or more. 50% die.

Indeed. I've said in many posts we may be better off in 10 years time, but equally it is entirely possible that we will NEVER be as well off post Brexit as we would have been had we not left. For the former to happen, personally I think we'd need to swing to the right in terms of our politics, with lower taxes, less regulation and less interference in business. It is those sort of policies that lead to increased growth and wealth creation. (Notwithstanding peoples' unhappiness with how that wealth may be distributed).

And right now, we seem to be heading - with either government - in the opposite direction.

Let's wind the clock forward and imagine we've left the EU and the customs union. A very likely outcome. Now let's imagine an American or Japanese company wanting to set up in Europe. What *possible* incentive would they have for decided to funnel their investment into the UK?

We have lower productivity than any other major economy (apart from Japan). Under Corbyn, we'd have corporation tax higher than the EU average and much higher than in some alternative countries. We'd have higher labour costs, even higher again under Corbyn. And at best case, this investor would face lots of administrative and logistical overheads, exporting to the other 27 countries. At worst, a tax penalty on top, making their goods less competitive.

In short, they would be MAD to come to the UK. And yet this is the sort of thing that we are expecting to *flourish* if we leave the EU. Absolutely bonkers.

I am looking for a job at the moment, and working in IT, lots of employers are American businesses of all sizes, from vast corporations to small start ups. It is striking how many of the startups are basing their first EU operations, not in the UK but elsewhere in Europe. Even the big businesses like Oracle and SAP have moved much of their administrative and support functions to places like Ireland and Hungary. (HR, support, inside sales, procurement - all moved out.)

 

[Dave Ewing's Back 'eader]

Heseltine's on telly saying Brexit is a cancer.

He's right. It's the biggest political shambles since WWII! We have a political system, electorate excluded, that would have been massively in favour of remaining. They are now charged with extricating us from a situation that would make exiting a complicated labyrinth a piece of piss! And the people we are negotiating with have little memories for the millions of Allied soldiers buried in their countries whose sacrifice allowed the ungrateful bastards to set up their Common Market in the first place! I think those in the Government should have little Commonwealth replicas of headstones pinned to their lapels at each meeting they have.

 

[Cheadle_hulmeBlue]

He's right. It's the biggest political shambles since WWII! We have a political system, electorate excluded, that would have been massively in favour of remaining. They are now charged with extricating us from a situation that would make exiting a complicated labyrinth a piece of piss! And the people we are negotiating with have little memories for the millions of Allied soldiers buried in their countries whose sacrifice allowed the ungrateful bastards to set up their Common Market in the first place! I think those in the Government should have little Commonwealth replicas of headstones pinned to their lapels at each meeting they have.

he isn't right at all, hes a doom and gloom merchant who has done nothing but moan the entire time. we haven't even left yet or started negotiating........ electorate excluded ? ok so lets just ignore the people then, that would be a brilliant idea.