Assisted dying

[metalblue]

So your point about drugs being available is a little moot... They have to be deployed in a timely manner and at the correct doses to be totally effective...

The point about your wife having to get "vocal" also suggests that many people end their lives in pain and suffering because they don't have a specialist palliative care nurse in their inner circle..

Not arguing about the specifics of any case, I'm just saying that if my loved one was in pain and a healthcare professional took that pain away i'd be grateful not vengeful...

The point is there are already ways to ensure a pain free and peaceful death. As the wife says in palliative care you have one chance to get it right - in practice this means healthcare professionals should be planning all the time and not leaving it to the last minute to make a any patient comfortable.

The fact that doesn’t happen in all cases is an entirely different, but very valid, conversation.

 

[denislawsbackheel]

I can guarantee Mrs MB won’t administer any drugs to help you or anyone else kill themselves irrespective of your legal rights. So it’s got everything to do with someone else.

I would not ask her to.
But neither should her values deny me access to the means to do it myself.

 

[metalblue]

Been thinking about your second paragraph and I can see what you are alluding to, but I don't think it is as black and white as that.

I cited my late mother in this thread ealier today. Riddled with cancer and either in agony or completely spaced out on morphine, not recognising her children and no mental capacity to request assisted suicide.

Her life was prolonged for months in this condition (cruelly imo) and, it affects family members greatly too who, would have loved to see her quietly slip away much sooner that she did. Something she said she would always want if there was no hope.

I’m sorry to read that mate. You’re right that at the extreme end the patient is completely out of it on a cocktail of drugs with little to no idea of anything going on around them. This may or may not be better for the patient but certainly not great for loved ones witnessing it. It’s unlikely the medical staff looking after your mum would have wanted it either (or at least I hope it was).

There are always times medical professionals don’t get it right - we certainly shouldn’t think of assisted suicide as an alternative but your experience might be a good example where assisted suicide might have been kinder for all concerned. I think that’s maybe where the debate needs to start - do a significant case notes reviews and establish if there are cases where assisted suicide would have been better had all the right treatments, therapies and drugs been used at the right times.

Anyway mate again really sorry to read your story - I do hope it’s not impacted your memories of your mum too much.

 

[metalblue]

I would not ask her to.
But neither should her values deny me access to the means to do it myself.

She’d have no problems giving you the means to do it yourself if the law allowed and you were of sound mind.

However even this has complexities, if they gave you a driver for example and it failed half way through delivering the fatal dose - do they stop or continue? None of us have the right to ask a medical professional to do either.

 

[mosssideblue]

I’m sorry to read that mate. You’re right that at the extreme end the patient is completely out of it on a cocktail of drugs with little to no idea of anything going on around them. This may or may not be better for the patient but certainly not great for loved ones witnessing it. It’s unlikely the medical staff looking after your mum would have wanted it either (or at least I hope it was).

There are always times medical professionals don’t get it right - we certainly shouldn’t think of assisted suicide as an alternative but your experience might be a good example where assisted suicide might have been kinder for all concerned. I think that’s maybe where the debate needs to start - do a significant case notes reviews and establish if there are cases where assisted suicide would have been better had all the right treatments, therapies and drugs been used at the right times.

Anyway mate again really sorry to read your story - I do hope it’s not impacted your memories of your mum too much.

Thanks for your considered response and kind words. It’s a very emotive topic and there will be those for and those against. I think it is good that Ester Rantzen’s story has brought it to the front and will advance discussion on it.

On a personal note, I would like to see it introduced as a legal option, once all scenarios and safeguards have been thrashed out

 

[metalblue]

There are many, many people that have sufficient control of their faculties that do not still have a reasonable quality of life, and currently, it is illegal in most places for medical professionals to honour their wishes to end their irrevocable suffering.

And of course there are practical, legal, and moral issues to be considered and addressed. But that is the case with essentially any public (or even most private) actions, policies, or laws. If the presence of those issues that need to be considered is the standard for not pursuing a policy or law, nearly everything would need to be made illegal and practically no future policy could be considered, much less implemented.

That something is inherently complex, or may come with unintended consequences, is not a reason to never pursue it. Civilisation would have never developed with that mindset.

I, for one, have had quite a lot of experience (both direct and indirect) and time to think this through, and I fully support medically-assisted death with reasonable safeguards to prevent most abuses.

Below are balanced articles regarding medically-assisted death, which I encourage everyone interested in the subject to read. They explore both the benefits and concerns with the practice and, in some cases, provide a sustainable framework that can be implemented to provide these services and protect the health and rights of those individuals that might avail themselves of them.

Conceptual, Legal, and Ethical Considerations in Physician-Assisted Death (US)​

Conceptual, Legal, and Ethical Considerations in Physician-Assisted Death - Physician-Assisted Death - NCBI Bookshelf

Ethical debates on assisted dying (UK)

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/117234/pdf/

Cheers for them. Will read later.

I’d be interested to see quality of life defined in law where a patient has the capacity to request death. Are you aware of any cases? Be interesting to read.

I can see it would easier to define on qualitative measurements when a patient would otherwise be dead if treatment was withdrawn and not able to offer a personal preference. This has been tested many times in law over the years.

 

[metalblue]

Thanks for your considered response and kind words. It’s a very emotive topic and there will be those for and those against. I think it is good that Ester Rantzen’s story has brought it to the front and will advance discussion on it.

On a personal note, I would like to see it introduced as a legal option, once all scenarios and safeguards have been thrashed out

I’m not against it in principle either mate. I suspect most will support it who don’t object on religious grounds.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

I’m sorry to read that mate. You’re right that at the extreme end the patient is completely out of it on a cocktail of drugs with little to no idea of anything going on around them. This may or may not be better for the patient but certainly not great for loved ones witnessing it. It’s unlikely the medical staff looking after your mum would have wanted it either (or at least I hope it was).

There are always times medical professionals don’t get it right - we certainly shouldn’t think of assisted suicide as an alternative but your experience might be a good example where assisted suicide might have been kinder for all concerned. I think that’s maybe where the debate needs to start - do a significant case notes reviews and establish if there are cases where assisted suicide would have been better had all the right treatments, therapies and drugs been used at the right times.

Anyway mate again really sorry to read your story - I do hope it’s not impacted your memories of your mum too much.

Having watched the death of my grandma of pneumonia, sitting with her whilst she was unconscious with the syringe driver of drugs sedating her, waiting until her lungs filled with mucus, I’d ask why she had to go through that when it had all been agreed that there was nothing left to try?

Surely, when that decision is made, it’s far more humane to “put her to sleep” than watch what was left of her body to fail and watch her drown?

 

[metalblue]

Nobody is suggesting that. Power of Attorney is already a thing anyway.

There needs to be a conversation about when the time comes that it is more humane for a person to be allowed to die.

If there is legislation that people can agree to and sign to say that they want to die under <insert circumstances> here, then the wishes are known and can be carried out. This would have to be alongside a doctor signing that the person is of sound mind too.

It already kind of happens when treatment is switched to palliative care. All that would change is they would die at the start of that, rather than being pumped full of morphine and allowing whatever disease/illness take its toll.

If there isn’t a plan in place, then assisted dying shouldn’t be available. This negates bad relatives trying to abuse the system.

I‘d have all Care Homes ask each new person that starts living with them to offer this alongside an Advanced Care Plan, so that when the time come to make the decisions, wishes are already known.

The NHS can keep people alive for too long. Knowing when the tipping point of treatment becoming detrimental can take too long to decipher.

Very few, if any, medical professionals will be prepared to take your wishes in to account like that to end your life.

You need the capacity to say “I want to die now”. There can be no doubt in their minds that this is your current wish.

DNR forms - which are the nearest I can think of - only work because you’re already dead and you’re refusing treatment to change that.

 

[Alan Harper's Tash]

Very few, if any, medical professionals will be prepared to take your wishes in to account like that to end your life.

You need the capacity to say “I want to die now”. There can be no doubt in their minds that this is your current wish.

DNR forms - which are the nearest I can think of - only work because you’re already dead and you’re refusing treatment to change that.

I know that currently, having just gone through it and her going in and out of hospital with recurring infections where delirium didn’t clear before the next one hit. Everyone (Care Home, GP, Ambulance, hospital doctor) has their own system, procedures and red flags.

She was blue lighted into resus twice, complete with her DNR form.

This thread is discussing the potential of assisted dying and my grandma had always said and had written that she didn’t want being kept alive for the sake of it and had she been able to sign a form to say she’d want to be put to sleep when a certain limit was met, she would have done.

I’m not trying to argue for family members to be able to make that decision. It should solely be the person’s own viewpoint and if nothing was in place, then it’d continue as it is now.

I guess the crux of the matter is that there is a point where receiving treatment becomes detrimental as it’s prolonging life for the sake of it.

Why can a vet end an animal’s suffering, whilst a doctor can’t?