Assisted dying

johnny crossan said:
The Netherlands (along with Canada, Belgium, Spain & Austria) has already widened eligibility for assisted suicide for those with chronic, non-terminal conditions who also experience unbearable suffering. Including those with mental conditions is also currently being considered in several countries.

Giving the state further powers to kill innocent people is not a solution to any problem and is not a matter of religious faith.
www.theguardian.com

Assisted dying bill is a ‘licence to kill’, Theresa May says

Former prime minister makes comments as Lords debate legislation for England and Wales for first time
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
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The state have no power to kill people, give over
 
johnny crossan said:
Thin end of a very unwelcome wedge for the unwanted elderly in a country and a world with a rapidly increasingly ageing population in the pitiless competition for scarce resources.
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I share some of your concerns to be honest. I get all the arguments in favour, but I still have nagging doubts.
 
mosssideblue said:
Do you want to share your doubts?
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It’s more an unease. I am not denying there is an argument for dying with dignity for the terminally ill, yet I worry about pressure being brought to bear, coercion, the feeling a person shouldn’t fight on when there is a peaceful solution and here I am talking about internal pressure when you have options.

And yes, I know this isn’t making a lot of sense and I guess that’s because I genuinely don’t know what I think about this issue which is why I largely avoid this topic.

I just don’t know is the answer. Probably best ignore me and I’ll go back to reading the arguments and keeping quiet.
 
BobKowalski said:
It’s more an unease. I am not denying there is an argument for dying with dignity for the terminally ill, yet I worry about pressure being brought to bear, coercion, the feeling a person shouldn’t fight on when there is a peaceful solution and here I am talking about internal pressure when you have options.

And yes, I know this isn’t making a lot of sense and I guess that’s because I genuinely don’t know what I think about this issue which is why I largely avoid this topic.

I just don’t know is the answer. Probably best ignore me and I’ll go back to reading the arguments and keeping quiet.
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Coercion was the main worry for many, alongside "not wanting to be a burden", that's why one of the conditions is that the person has to be diagnosed with a condition likely to lead to death within 12 months.
 
BobKowalski said:
It’s more an unease. I am not denying there is an argument for dying with dignity for the terminally ill, yet I worry about pressure being brought to bear, coercion, the feeling a person shouldn’t fight on when there is a peaceful solution and here I am talking about internal pressure when you have options.

And yes, I know this isn’t making a lot of sense and I guess that’s because I genuinely don’t know what I think about this issue which is why I largely avoid this topic.

I just don’t know is the answer. Probably best ignore me and I’ll go back to reading the arguments and keeping quiet.
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Coercion is a valid point….. it’s quite right to worry about the elderly. The coercion I see comes mainly from the state. For many years “elderly people are clogging up hospital beds with no where to put them” as if they are a nuisance to society. That is the coercion put out by politicians.

With the closure of hundreds of NHS homes/wards/beds for elderly people who need (care) that is one aspect the other one people being kept alive with medical intervention and no prospect of a quality of life.

In the past it wasn’t an issue women mainly did the caring at home and people died much younger
 
johnny crossan said:
The Netherlands (along with Canada, Belgium, Spain & Austria) has already widened eligibility for assisted suicide for those with chronic, non-terminal conditions who also experience unbearable suffering. Including those with mental conditions is also currently being considered in several countries.

Giving the state further powers to kill innocent people is not a solution to any problem and is not a matter of religious faith.
www.theguardian.com

Assisted dying bill is a ‘licence to kill’, Theresa May says

Former prime minister makes comments as Lords debate legislation for England and Wales for first time
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
Click to expand...

People who have unbearable suffering should be able to decide their fate.

It's not the state killing people, it's people deciding they want to die to end their suffering. That is the solution we provide our animals with and one that is much more humane than the current situation for many people.

Your concerns are about amendments to rules, which as I said are just conversations in other countries and not law. There is a case of a girl in the Netherlands who has psychiatric issues and wanted to die. But it didn't happen overnight. It took years of medical treatment to ensure there was no other alternative.

I don't believe for a second that bringing in assisted dying will lead to people being happy to kill off the elderly and anyone who is feeling blue. I don't waste time being concerned about that day. I focus on the current situation and, having seen my Mum suffer quite horrifically from a terminal illness would like others in her situation to have the opportunity for a more humane ending.
 
supercity88 said:
People who have unbearable suffering should be able to decide their fate.

It's not the state killing people, it's people deciding they want to die to end their suffering. That is the solution we provide our animals with and one that is much more humane than the current situation for many people.

Your concerns are about amendments to rules, which as I said are just conversations in other countries and not law. There is a case of a girl in the Netherlands who has psychiatric issues and wanted to die. But it didn't happen overnight. It took years of medical treatment to ensure there was no other alternative.

I don't believe for a second that bringing in assisted dying will lead to people being happy to kill off the elderly and anyone who is feeling blue. I don't waste time being concerned about that day. I focus on the current situation and, having seen my Mum suffer quite horrifically from a terminal illness would like others in her situation to have the opportunity for a more humane ending.
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Yes, it's heartbreaking and a situation of powerlessness many of us have experienced. One solution is the provision of proper end of life care for all but as we know that isn't going to happen for a long time - if ever. The other is to allow for legal euthansia and my view remains that the state should not be permitted to kill its innocent citizens even if they want it to.
 
johnny crossan said:
Yes, it's heartbreaking and a situation of powerlessness many of us have experienced. One solution is the provision of proper end of life care for all but as we know that isn't going to happen for a long time - if ever. The other is to allow for legal euthansia and my view remains that the state should not be permitted to kill its innocent citizens even if they want it to.
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How can palliative care help someone whose only options are absolute agony or spaced out on morphine?
 
mosssideblue said:
How can palliative care help someone whose only options are absolute agony or spaced out on morphine?
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You should listen carefully to contributions from the end of life care specialists in the Lords' debate about their ability to relieve pain without anaesthesia in almost all cases given sufficient resources. I'm not saying that the situation you describe won't happen but it would be far less common if access to proper palliative treatment was improved.
 
johnny crossan said:
You should listen carefully to contributions from the end of life care specialists in the Lords' debate about their ability to relieve pain without anaesthesia in almost all cases given sufficient resources. I'm not saying that the situation you describe won't happen but it would be far less common if access to proper palliative treatment was improved.
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We won’t agree, which is fine as we won’t influence the outcome.

I haven’t listened to the contributions in the HoL so cannot comment, but ultimately we are only talking about weeks of maintaining life and, if the quality of that existence isn’t good, I see no reason not to allow that patient an option
 
The 21st century world is truly , uniquely awful , a hideous dystopia that produces fucking immense amounts of mental suffering. This is only going to get worse and there is no fixing it.
Anyone who doesn't want to be here shouldn't have to throw themselves off a tall building or in front of a train or strangle themselves.

I realise that there are people who want to get rid of "useless eaters' but these people also do not wish that people exiting cos they don't think life's worth it becomes too popular as naturally they need a workforce!
 
supercity88 said:
People who have unbearable suffering should be able to decide their fate.

It's not the state killing people, it's people deciding they want to die to end their suffering. That is the solution we provide our animals with and one that is much more humane than the current situation for many people.

Your concerns are about amendments to rules, which as I said are just conversations in other countries and not law. There is a case of a girl in the Netherlands who has psychiatric issues and wanted to die. But it didn't happen overnight. It took years of medical treatment to ensure there was no other alternative.

I don't believe for a second that bringing in assisted dying will lead to people being happy to kill off the elderly and anyone who is feeling blue. I don't waste time being concerned about that day. I focus on the current situation and, having seen my Mum suffer quite horrifically from a terminal illness would like others in her situation to have the opportunity for a more humane ending.
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Good post.
 
johnny crossan said:
You should listen carefully to contributions from the end of life care specialists in the Lords' debate about their ability to relieve pain without anaesthesia in almost all cases given sufficient resources. I'm not saying that the situation you describe won't happen but it would be far less common if access to proper palliative treatment was improved.
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Odd that, seeing as the last person i know who died of cancer while receiving palliative care was off her head on ketamine for the last few days of her life.
 
stonerblue said:
Odd that, seeing as the last person i know who died of cancer while receiving palliative care was off her head on ketamine for the last few days of her life.
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Not odd, it's far too common but the number of people in that situation could be substantially reduced with a relatively modest increase in resources according to the end of life care specialists who spoke in the HoL debate.
 
johnny crossan said:
Not odd, it's far too common but the number of people in that situation could be substantially reduced with a relatively modest increase in resources according to the end of life care specialists who spoke in the HoL debate.
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In the meantime while these resources you say are needed for a palliative care system to function, that’s fine for people who wish to drag out their death and live an extra minute in agony. Not everyone wants to get extra days of being nursed 24hrs a day dependent on the kindness of strangers.
Its a job people get paid to do they go home and your left waiting for the next shift to come on duty, or its “sorry you’ve had your daily dose of painkillers for today anymore and it might kill you.

I would say the health service is broken you wait weeks for an appointment to see your GP and even drugs that might help alleviate painful conditions are rationed in a way totally unheard of in the past.
The idea death can be pain free is wrong, pain is individual no one can know the torment patients go through unless it happens to you or people you know.

In the past doctors were free to prescribe as they saw fit but now they have budgets to adhere too and new treatments and tablets are reduced accordingly.
 
johnny crossan said:
Yes, it's heartbreaking and a situation of powerlessness many of us have experienced. One solution is the provision of proper end of life care for all but as we know that isn't going to happen for a long time - if ever. The other is to allow for legal euthansia and my view remains that the state should not be permitted to kill its innocent citizens even if they want it to.
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Stop promulgating lies.
There is no question of the state getting involved.
 
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