Attacks in Paris

[Saddleworth2]

Has there been any information on where the hell they got the Kalashnikovs from yet? I am in the USA just now and the reaction has ranged from pretty intelligent to terminally stupid. Donald trumps answer is to arm everyone on the basis that innocent people can then protect themselves. A point that keeps coming through is how quickly some young Muslims are being radicalised and how quickly they are ready to commit atrocities against innocents and themselves. Social media is held up as the key tool in this radicalisation. Also commentary that the solution has to address both the atrocities and the underlying mindset that results in the radicalisation. Very little commentary about a concerted effort from the world community to try and resolve the crisis. I suspect that will have to be at the core of it. Scary times.

 

[Saddleworth2]

Not sure I agree with your conclusion about the outcome of the Troubles. The British Government only had one stated aim in that conflict, a conflict which came to their door it should be said, namely that Northern Ireland remained part of the UK as long as its people continued to will it as such. That is where we find ourselves today, so it's difficult to see how anyone could say that they British lost that 'unwinnable' conflict.

That point, however, is more than a little trite. Putting the organised crime element to one side, even the most radical of Irish Republicans aspired to a representative democracy in a united Ireland where (theoretically at least) Unionists were to be welcomed into that society. Catholics in Ireland have a much better record of tolerance to Protestants than the other way round (although that is straying slightly off the topic, it underlines my point). Moreover, even at the height of the Troubles, in the early 70's, there was dialogue at the highest levels between the IRA and the British Government. That is because they were two highly disparate and divided bodies, but they shared relatively similar perspectives about how to order society.

With IS, you may as well be talking about people who think the moon is made of cheese. There is no common ground between the two groupings. They want to obliterate western society , as they see it as utterly immoral and dissolute. Equally, as a society, we will not accept anything that imposes itself on our way of life, most certainly to that extent. There isn't and can not be any common ground. Not sure how that can ever be a basis for dialogue.

As I said, I don't expect troops on the ground to act as any panacea, or any long term solution, but until one presents itself there will be occasions to cut off the head or one of the heads off the hydra in the knowledge that it will, in all probability, grow back again.

I think that time has come.

I think we can expect further controls on our civil liberties in the name of protection before we see troops on the ground. This is like a cancer that mutates and grows until you are no longer sure where to cut. Not offering solutions as I simply cannot see one.

 

[Chris in London]

You miss the point by a million miles
The point of the jihad is they are doing the will of God it matters not a jot if they win or not in the terms we consider victory. They have in their eyes won, in the eyes of allah, just by participating they have won and as Martyrs their rewards are waiting in heaven.

Once you realize that we do not really comprehend their aims how can we hope to bring them to the table so they don't really care if they cannot win in terms the west can recognise. This is why they will never sit down a negotiate as that in itself goes against the teachings of the Koran.

The irony of your post is that in pointing out how in your view I miss the point, you miss the point (in my view) by an even greater margin. Before contradicting yourself, that is, by implying in one paragraph that you understand their aims and in the next suggesting that we in the west do not.

Be that as it may, much the same thing was said of the IRA, that they would never come to the negotiating table. But eventually, twenty five years after Bloody Sunday, there was a peace. For the martyrs of the Irish cause, like Bobby Sands, there could never be a peace with the British crown. And so they gave their lives in the name of the cause. Yet with time that extremism morphed into something that did come to the table, and a peace was forged. There are still diehards who divorced themselves from the peace process, but they are few and far between.

In terms of radical Islam, for the boots on the ground undoubtedly they are doing gods work and so cannot 'lose' in conventional terms. Much the same logic underpinned the crusades in the twelfth century. However for those higher up, those who for some reason seem keen to delay the virgins and the martyrdom, eventually the time will come, as it did for the players in the IRA, when there is recognition that they cannot achieve all of their objectives.

Once you accept that there can be no conventional victory on either side you are left with either a state of perpetual war or a peace process. Sooner or later - later, probably - the one will evolve into the other.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

I think we can expect further controls on our civil liberties in the name of protection before we see troops on the ground. This is like a cancer that mutates and grows until you are no longer sure where to cut. Not offering solutions as I simply cannot see one.

Anyone who thinks there's an easy solution is a fool, mate.

I hope you're wrong about our civil liberties, but I suspect you're right, sadly.

 

[TFC]

Anyone who thinks there's an easy solution is a fool, mate.

I hope you're wrong about our civil liberties, but I suspect you're right, sadly.

I had made a crack on another thread last night about martial law and curfew but I honestly dont think its outside the realms of possibility for that to happen in the not too distant future. Maybe not in the UK but I think we'll see it.

 

[Saddleworth2]

I had made a crack on another thread last night about martial law and curfew but I honestly dont think its outside the realms of possibility for that to happen in the not too distant future. Maybe not in the UK but I think we'll see it.

You would need to go much further to try and isolate the ideology that results in radicalisation. The banning of all social media and draconian controls on Internet usage? Cyber walls between countries? National identity systems?

 

[whp.blue]

The irony of your post is that in pointing out how in your view I miss the point, you miss the point (in my view) by an even greater margin. Before contradicting yourself, that is, by implying in one paragraph that you understand their aims and in the next suggesting that we in the west do not.

Be that as it may, much the same thing was said of the IRA, that they would never come to the negotiating table. But eventually, twenty five years after Bloody Sunday, there was a peace. For the martyrs of the Irish cause, like Bobby Sands, there could never be a peace with the British crown. And so they gave their lives in the name of the cause. Yet with time that extremism morphed into something that did come to the table, and a peace was forged. There are still diehards who divorced themselves from the peace process, but they are few and far between.

In terms of radical Islam, for the boots on the ground undoubtedly they are doing gods work and so cannot 'lose' in conventional terms. Much the same logic underpinned the crusades in the twelfth century. However for those higher up, those who for some reason seem keen to delay the virgins and the martyrdom, eventually the time will come, as it did for the players in the IRA, when there is recognition that they cannot achieve all of their objectives.

Once you accept that there can be no conventional victory on either side you are left with either a state of perpetual war or a peace process. Sooner or later - later, probably - the one will evolve into the other.

How many suicide attacks did the IRA ever commit?

There is no comparison to be made between ISIS mentality and that of the IRA who share conventional western mindset even though they were prepared to commit acts of terror to win their goals.
and the extremists of today have very little in common with 12th century muslims

 

[kas_tippler]

In political developments:

• Mr Valls says France will continue with air strikes against IS in Syria, and described the group as a very well-organised enemy
• EU justice and interior ministers will hold an emergency meeting on Friday to discuss security measures
• President Francois Hollande cancelled plans to attend a G20 meeting in Turkey on Sunday and has held meetings with political leaders

Belgian link?
The Seat car found in Montreuil is believed to have been used by gunmen who opened fire on people in restaurants on Friday, police say.

Several AK47 rifles were found in the car, French media quote judicial sources as saying.

This appears to confirm the theory that some of the gunmen managed to flee after the attacks, the BBC's Hugh Schofield reports from Paris.

These men may then have driven north in another car to Belgium, he adds.

Brussels is the real breading ground for extremists, worst city I've been to.

 

[1961_vintage]

As I said, I don't expect troops on the ground to act as any panacea, or any long term solution, but until one presents itself there will be occasions to cut off the head or one of the heads off the hydra in the knowledge that it will, in all probability, grow back again. I think that time has come.

Having lost a dear friend and colleague in the murderous slaughter that took place at the Bataclan concert hall on Friday evening, it is clear to me that whilst it is only one part of what is most likely to be four or more simultaneously managed elements in addressing this series of complex and difficult issues, the time for the co-ordinated deployment of military force in extremis has undoubtedly arrived.

 

[Benarbia_is_god]

There's a lot they aren't telling us at the moment, I expect tomorrow will be the day they decide to tell us everything they know. It's probably best they build a bigger picture and release everything at once rather than drip feed news to us. Apparently it's very easy to get weapons in Belgium and France, a Beligan newspaper did it in 6 hours a few years ago.

Also I feel that Hungary have been vindicated in their approach to migrants. They wanted to know everyone coming through and they were slagged off by everyone for treating the refugees like animals.

 

[Blue Hefner]

Some of the PSG players saying they feel unsure about going back following international duty

I know it's a personal choice but I don't think they should be saying anything now, other than support of the city, fans etc.

Would you feel safe playing for PSG? If the Shaktar players can stay in the Ukraine, I'm sure Luiz and Cavani can stay until the end of the season and leave without fuss and it looking like they are abandoning ship

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

Having lost a dear friend and colleague in the murderous slaughter that took place at the Bataclan concert hall on Friday evening, it is clear to me that whilst it is only one part of what is most likely to be four or more simultaneously managed elements in addressing this series of complex and difficult issues, the time for the co-ordinated deployment of military force in extremis has undoubtedly arrived.

So sorry to hear that pal. Must be very hard to take.

 

[1961_vintage]

So sorry to hear that pal. Must be very hard to take.

Yep. A genuine, bright, talented and hard-working professional young man who did nothing wrong but just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Harder still of course for his lovely wife and young children. The reality is that it could have been any one of us on this board mate. It just happened to be Paris this time.

 

[BlueAnorak]

I note that France and the US are already stating that Daesh has declared war on France (note the renaming to avoid calling them Islamic).
Similarly all the noise within Nato looks like Nato will treat the attack as per the 11/09 attack on the US with the invoking of Article 5 "An attack on one is an attack on all".

 

[No Ham In Manchester]

Some of the PSG players saying they feel unsure about going back following international duty

I know it's a personal choice but I don't think they should be saying anything now, other than support of the city, fans etc.

Would you feel safe playing for PSG? If the Shaktar players can stay in the Ukraine, I'm sure Luiz and Cavani can stay until the end of the season and leave without fuss and it looking like they are abandoning ship

Seen that as well, absolutely no class between them. It's not like they're playing in Syria itself but it's their choice as you said, not a huge fan of them anyway.

It was David Luiz and Cavani i heard, isn't that like £100m?

 

[Blue Hefner]

Seen that as well, absolutely no class between them. It's not like they're playing in Syria itself but it's their choice as you said, not a huge fan of them anyway.

It was David Luiz and Cavani i heard, isn't that like £100m?

Yeah, about 100mil - and I don't particularly rate either of them

It will be interesting to see how the fans take to them if those quotes are accurate - the world is talking about solidarity yet these two are not. Having said that, it's easy I suppose for us to talk about solidarity and 'man up'(DM comments page) but we don't have to live there and I imagine it's going to be pretty unnerving, not only for the PSG players but all players and fans going to football grounds in the the next few weeks

 

[malg]

Those players will have their families to think about as well, added to the fact that do we know that's exactly what they said, or is there some context to the comments?

 

[stony]

Yeah, about 100mil - and I don't particularly rate either of them

It will be interesting to see how the fans take to them if those quotes are accurate - the world is talking about solidarity yet these two are not. Having said that, it's easy I suppose for us to talk about solidarity and 'man up'(DM comments page) but we don't have to live there and I imagine it's going to be pretty unnerving, not only for the PSG players but all players and fans going to football grounds in the the next few weeks

It sounds very much like the pair of wankstains are using this as an excuse to get a transfer. If that's what they are doing I hope the whole of football shuns them, although I seriously doubt it would.

 

[George Hannah]

worth a listen if you have time

http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/islam-the-future-of-tolerance

 

[Chris in London]

Not sure I agree with your conclusion about the outcome of the Troubles. The British Government only had one stated aim in that conflict, a conflict which came to their door it should be said, namely that Northern Ireland remained part of the UK as long as its people continued to will it as such. That is where we find ourselves today, so it's difficult to see how anyone could say that they British lost that 'unwinnable' conflict.

That point, however, is more than a little trite. Putting the organised crime element to one side, even the most radical of Irish Republicans aspired to a representative democracy in a united Ireland where (theoretically at least) Unionists were to be welcomed into that society. Catholics in Ireland have a much better record of tolerance to Protestants than the other way round (although that is straying slightly off the topic, it underlines my point). Moreover, even at the height of the Troubles, in the early 70's, there was dialogue at the highest levels between the IRA and the British Government. That is because they were two highly disparate and divided bodies, but they shared relatively similar perspectives about how to order society.

With IS, you may as well be talking about people who think the moon is made of cheese. There is no common ground between the two groupings. They want to obliterate western society , as they see it as utterly immoral and dissolute. Equally, as a society, we will not accept anything that imposes itself on our way of life, most certainly to that extent. There isn't and can not be any common ground. Not sure how that can ever be a basis for dialogue.

As I said, I don't expect troops on the ground to act as any panacea, or any long term solution, but until one presents itself there will be occasions to cut off the head or one of the heads off the hydra in the knowledge that it will, in all probability, grow back again.

I think that time has come.

The irony of the troubles is that via negotiations the British government achieved exactly what it had failed to achieve, and could never have achieved, through military means. In purely military terms, the IRA was undefeatable for mostly the same reasons that IS/AQ is now. But the West, like the British army is undefeatable for different reasons. So the war that neither side can win either stands to run in perpetuity or it will come to an end at some point. In the case of Northern Ireland, the conflict that started in 1969 came to an end in 1997.

Your view (with great respect) about the prospects of a negotiated settlement eventually seem unduly fatalistic to me. The reason I reference the Northern Ireland situation is that the objectives of each side were to achieve mutually exclusive goals. There was no 'win-win' solution possible. The six counties on one view would be part of a United Ireland, on the other they would remain part of the U.K., but those two alternatives were precisely that: alternatives. It was easy to say, and many at the time did say, that there could be negotiated peace between the two sides in those circumstances where the outcome is binary. The swift failure of negotiations with the IRA high command in the early/mid 70s was seen by many simply to underline that. So in 1973 the prospect of a negotiated settlement must have seemed as far fetched as a negotiated settlement with IS does today. It is for this reason, that then as now the opposite sides were fundamentally at odds, that I am not as pessimistic as you about the (very) long term.

I stress however that I don't think negotiations with IS will happen any time soon: I am looking into a future measured in decades, not days. And I agree that as things stand the prospects of a negotiated peace with Radical Islam look bleak. But they looked bleak, I repeat, in 1973, too.

In the meantime we deal with the hydra like keeping on top of the weeds in a manicured garden; we try to achieve a balance by pulling up as many weeds as we can within acceptable bounds in terms of time and cost; except that the cost is measured in lives and liberties rather than weedol and gardening gloves.