Attacks in Paris

There seems to be growing support for full scale military engagement alongside Irani forces to visibly defeat the Isis presence in the territory they currently occupy. By doing this they argue that the central element of their ideology - reviving the Caliphate - would be shown to be unattainable.
That's the last thing we should do as that's exactly what ISIS want. It may take a bit longer doing it that way but there's ways we can support them (which the US are doing). It has to be their fight plus ISIS can't present it as a battle between the West & Islam.
 
A 10 foot high wall around island UK would not have stopped 7/7.

The perps were all UK nationals.
 
Perps? Heavens above, the Americanisms are all over this Board!
 
Perps? Heavens above, the Americanisms are all over this Board!

As British as it gets..

'Perps were....uncooperative'

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That's the last thing we should do as that's exactly what ISIS want. It may take a bit longer doing it that way but there's ways we can support them (which the US are doing). It has to be their fight plus ISIS can't present it as a battle between the West & Islam.
It's a question of the least worst option I guess. Our current strategy to support the anti Assad faction isn't going to work without securing a wider alliance.
 
Should be uniting not isolating especially after events like this.
EU countries have different views about immigration/free movement. Germany seem to have an open door policy which effects other countries who don't, but under EU law they have free movement. Its hard to understand why the French decided to give the information that passports where found, maybe its a prelude to stricter border controls.
 
The growing consensus (from proper Muslims) is that Saudi Arabia is a huge factor. How so?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p02gyz6b/adam-curtis-bitter-lake


“There is no future for Assad in Syria,” Saudi foreign minister Adel Al-Jubeir warned, a few hours before the first Russian bombing sorties began. If that was not blunt enough, he spelled out that if the president did not step down as part of a political transition, his country would embrace a military option, “which also would end with the removal of Bashar al-Assad from power”.
“The Russian intervention is a massive setback for those states backing the opposition, particularly within the region – Qatar, Saudi Arabia and Turkey – and is likely to elicit a strong response in terms of a counter-escalation,”
said Julien Barnes-Dacey, senior policy fellow at the European Council on Foreign Relations.
 
Facebook will be full of shit now
Just seen a post on Facebook from a friend of mine who is also well known to many on here. It's a share of photo showing a group of Palestinians praying, with the caption "Palestinians pray for the people of Paris but the media don't show this".

I was a bit dubious as prayers usually take place on a Friday so I Googled the photo. The reason the media don't show it is that the photo was actually taken 4 years ago. So unless they were fucking psychic they weren't praying for the Paris victims.

Think he's now taken it down but it didn't stop a few other people (at least two of them Blues I know who are otherwise decent and intelligent people) liking it.
 
You have no chance of preventing terrorists living in Belgium from entering France to carry out their aims without border controls. It is a fundamental part of national security and has been abandoned by the shengen countries in their quest for a single european super state.


you couldn't have stopped these 2 entering France from belgium Shengen or not as it has been confirmed they were french nationals, you can have shengen so you can cross borders visa free, but the abandoning of passport and border checks is the big mistake thats been made
 
ISIS claiming the Paris attacks are as a result of French involvement in Syria is entirely disingenuous. ISIS want to annihilate anyone who doesn't fanatically follow Islam in exactly the way they have decided is correct. Syria is just an excuse, if the French hadn't been involved there then they'd have just found some other reason to bring their terror tactics to Western Europe. You can't negotiate with them, there's no reasoning or middle ground, what they believe, what they want, and how they achieve it are entirely alien to the way we live our lives. There is only one option here, ISIS need to be eradicated. If we don't remove ISIS then they will continue to kill, both in the middle east, and also throughout Europe. The issue is how we go about the removal of ISIS. Air strikes, and arming their enemies is the current method of choice, but is that sufficient? Is it working? There is a distinct lack of appetite for the introduction of ground troops, understandably so after years of action in Afghanistan and Iraq, but do we need to readdress that? Are we opening ourselves up to further atrocities, on our own doorstep, if we drag out the ISIS situation? What needs to be made abundantly clear to the Muslim world is that action against ISIS is NOT action against Islam. We don't care what religious persuasion they follow, we care that they are killing out civilians, in our cities, whilst they are simply trying to enjoy their lives. It cannot be allowed to happen again, yet depressingly it's almost inevitable.
 
In political developments:

  • Mr Valls says France will continue with air strikes against IS in Syria, and described the group as a very well-organised enemy
  • EU justice and interior ministers will hold an emergency meeting on Friday to discuss security measures
  • President Francois Hollande cancelled plans to attend a G20 meeting in Turkey on Sunday and has held meetings with political leaders
Belgian link?
The Seat car found in Montreuil is believed to have been used by gunmen who opened fire on people in restaurants on Friday, police say.

Several AK47 rifles were found in the car, French media quote judicial sources as saying.

This appears to confirm the theory that some of the gunmen managed to flee after the attacks, the BBC's Hugh Schofield reports from Paris.

These men may then have driven north in another car to Belgium, he adds.
 
Three of the suicide bombers in the Paris atrocities were French, according to reports.

Two of them were living in Brussels, according to Belgian media quoting official sources.

Sky News
 
The difficulty is compounded by three things: first, the west is undefeatable in military terms, and acts of terrorism serve to underpin the west's resolve, not to undermine it. Secondly, however, the hydra-like nature of ISIS/AQ means that they too are undefeatable in military terms. We learned in Northern Ireland that asymmetric wars are unwinnable. In military terms western backed powers will before too long take back the territory under IS control, but that won't end the conflict any more than did taking Afghanistan from the taleban.

Which brings me to the third point, namely that some form of negotiated settlement is the only way this conflict can end. I take your point that it is difficult to imagine the suicide bombers sitting round the negotiating table, but some time (even if it is decades away) the higher echelons in IS/AQ will come to the table, because however long it takes it will eventually dawn on them that they can't win.
Not sure I agree with your conclusion about the outcome of the Troubles. The British Government only had one stated aim in that conflict, a conflict which came to their door it should be said, namely that Northern Ireland remained part of the UK as long as its people continued to will it as such. That is where we find ourselves today, so it's difficult to see how anyone could say that they British lost that 'unwinnable' conflict.

That point, however, is more than a little trite. Putting the organised crime element to one side, even the most radical of Irish Republicans aspired to a representative democracy in a united Ireland where (theoretically at least) Unionists were to be welcomed into that society. Catholics in Ireland have a much better record of tolerance to Protestants than the other way round (although that is straying slightly off the topic, it underlines my point). Moreover, even at the height of the Troubles, in the early 70's, there was dialogue at the highest levels between the IRA and the British Government. That is because they were two highly disparate and divided bodies, but they shared relatively similar perspectives about how to order society.

With IS, you may as well be talking about people who think the moon is made of cheese. There is no common ground between the two groupings. They want to obliterate western society , as they see it as utterly immoral and dissolute. Equally, as a society, we will not accept anything that imposes itself on our way of life, most certainly to that extent. There isn't and can not be any common ground. Not sure how that can ever be a basis for dialogue.

As I said, I don't expect troops on the ground to act as any panacea, or any long term solution, but until one presents itself there will be occasions to cut off the head or one of the heads off the hydra in the knowledge that it will, in all probability, grow back again.

I think that time has come.
 

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