Basic manners, keyboard warriors etc

[Damocles]

The two biggest issues, for me at least, are:

- posters being unnecessarily confrontational and aggressive when people have a different viewpoint. It's tedious and as Ammy said, is stifling debate. There's no need to be a dick just because someone disagrees with you. Its not unreasonable to ask people to treat fellow users with a bit more respect and courtesy.

- the casual Islamaphobia. It's not a problem specific to Bluemoon (one look at Twitter or Facebook tells you that), but there are some increasingly abhorrent views being aired on threads about Muslims and Islam. That has to stop.

Obviously we need to do more to stamp it out so will look at how we can do things better, but there needs to be a degree of self-policing too. I know I keep repeating it, but if posts aren't reported they'll often slip under the radar.

On the second point, you actually said something like this to me as a reply in the Mod Forum when I raised it -

Yes Islamophobia on Bluemoon has risen in the last few years, that's obvious to all and sundry. But Islamophobia has also risen in society at an alarming rate and if anything we are reflection of our own society. The question is whether Bluemoon has had Islamophobia rising at a rate higher than the general population and considering the rise of the acceptable far right in UK politics then I'd guess not.

So my point is that whilst Islamophobia is one of my buttons that fucks me off, if we attempt to toughen up the moderation on it then we're sort of showing a bias of opinion there. We can't reflect society and not allowed views that reflect the views of millions in our society to not be aired. We don't want to turn into one of those safe space bollocks whereby nobody can possibly be offended at anything anybody says ever.

Discussions on here are often passionate because the people who delve into the issues are passionate about them. Passion often overflows into frustration. This isn't an echo chamber and the idea of a bunch of people sat around calmly and intellectually discussing passionate issues is unrealistic because even top academics in their fields can't discuss things like this without arguments breaking out. The idea that a bunch of us lot can do is holding us to impossible standards.

 

[aguero93:20]

On the second point, you actually said something like this to me as a reply in the Mod Forum when I raised it -

Yes Islamophobia on Bluemoon has risen in the last few years, that's obvious to all and sundry. But Islamophobia has also risen in society at an alarming rate and if anything we are reflection of our own society. The question is whether Bluemoon has had Islamophobia rising at a rate higher than the general population and considering the rise of the acceptable far right in UK politics then I'd guess not.

So my point is that whilst Islamophobia is one of my buttons that fucks me off, if we attempt to toughen up the moderation on it then we're sort of showing a bias of opinion there. We can't reflect society and not allowed views that reflect the views of millions in our society to not be aired. We don't want to turn into one of those safe space bollocks whereby nobody can possibly be offended at anything anybody says ever.

Discussions on here are often passionate because the people who delve into the issues are passionate about them. Passion often overflows into frustration. This isn't an echo chamber and the idea of a bunch of people sat around calmly and intellectually discussing passionate issues is unrealistic because even top academics in their fields can't discuss things like this without arguments breaking out. The idea that a bunch of us lot can do is holding us to impossible standards.

 

[foetus]

On the second point, you actually said something like this to me as a reply in the Mod Forum when I raised it -

Yes Islamophobia on Bluemoon has risen in the last few years, that's obvious to all and sundry. But Islamophobia has also risen in society at an alarming rate and if anything we are reflection of our own society. The question is whether Bluemoon has had Islamophobia rising at a rate higher than the general population and considering the rise of the acceptable far right in UK politics then I'd guess not.

So my point is that whilst Islamophobia is one of my buttons that fucks me off, if we attempt to toughen up the moderation on it then we're sort of showing a bias of opinion there. We can't reflect society and not allowed views that reflect the views of millions in our society to not be aired. We don't want to turn into one of those safe space bollocks whereby nobody can possibly be offended at anything anybody says ever.

Discussions on here are often passionate because the people who delve into the issues are passionate about them. Passion often overflows into frustration. This isn't an echo chamber and the idea of a bunch of people sat around calmly and intellectually discussing passionate issues is unrealistic because even top academics in their fields can't discuss things like this without arguments breaking out. The idea that a bunch of us lot can do is holding us to impossible standards.

Any Islamophobia is more likely to be seen after a certain event (lets be honest...some sort of terrorist attack) in which people are passionate/angry about. Things will get said in the heat of the moment.

Just like when city lose, there is going to be a lot more negative stuff said than normal. Things that people take back once they've had a chance to calm down. It's human nature.

As long as it doesn't cross the line, I think it's good to have discussions (on all religions). As soon as we start treating certain cultures/religions different than other ones, that in itself isn't healthy. Make everyone and everything fair game and if you're still offended, bring it up with a mod to decide whether it breaches the CoC or log off and go sook somewhere else. (not directed at you Damo, more so the forum as a whole)

 

[roaminblue]

On the second point, you actually said something like this to me as a reply in the Mod Forum when I raised it -

Yes Islamophobia on Bluemoon has risen in the last few years, that's obvious to all and sundry. But Islamophobia has also risen in society at an alarming rate and if anything we are reflection of our own society. The question is whether Bluemoon has had Islamophobia rising at a rate higher than the general population and considering the rise of the acceptable far right in UK politics then I'd guess not.

So my point is that whilst Islamophobia is one of my buttons that fucks me off, if we attempt to toughen up the moderation on it then we're sort of showing a bias of opinion there. We can't reflect society and not allowed views that reflect the views of millions in our society to not be aired. We don't want to turn into one of those safe space bollocks whereby nobody can possibly be offended at anything anybody says ever.

Discussions on here are often passionate because the people who delve into the issues are passionate about them. Passion often overflows into frustration. This isn't an echo chamber and the idea of a bunch of people sat around calmly and intellectually discussing passionate issues is unrealistic because even top academics in their fields can't discuss things like this without arguments breaking out. The idea that a bunch of us lot can do is holding us to impossible standards.

I've seen plenty of posts where you're saying this board isn't a democracy. One where you even labeled it a monarchy. As a moderator in this monarchy, aren't you supposed to be enforcing Ric's will? Or does that lack of democratic right extend only to those who post here?

If Islamophobia has risen in society, this place is then supposed to reflect that? If that's the case, society is fucking wrong, and society's view points shouldn't be welcome here. This isn't a place to absolutely mimic what society does. If it was you'd stop banning "rags" at the drop of a hat.

I don't even follow the "safe space bollocks" line. Theres no grey here. You either clamp down on abuse or you don't. You can't pick and choose. You let people come on here and be islamphobic as a policy (and as you're a moderator accepting that, its a given it is a suggestion of policy, right?) you bet your ass I, and others, want the right to call them cunts. Plenty of people have been warned and banned for personal abuse, fine, if we are moderating abuse the precedent has been set. But allowing people to be islamophobic as its reflective of society? You think the people banned wouldn't call an islamophobe a **** in real life?

This sounds awfully like you're trying way to hard to brandish some libertarian principles as though this board would settle into a place where people are so free thinking that they can wade towards a totally enlightened Nirvana. Its rubbish. There is a reason why libertarian-ism has no foothold in politics, its because everyone reduces to the lowest common denominator.

 

[roaminblue]

Any Islamophobia is more likely to be seen after a certain event (lets be honest...some sort of terrorist attack) in which people are passionate/angry about. Things will get said in the heat of the moment.

Just like when city lose, there is going to be a lot more negative stuff said than normal. Things that people take back once they've had a chance to calm down. It's human nature.

As long as it doesn't cross the line, I think it's good to have discussions (on all religions). As soon as we start treating certain cultures/religions different than other ones, that in itself isn't healthy. Make everyone and everything fair game and if you're still offended, bring it up with a mod to decide whether it breaches the CoC or log off and go sook somewhere else. (not directed at you Damo, more so the forum as a whole)

You see, to me, this reads: its ok to abuse islam because it will be in the heat of the moment. Its not for someone to call previous poster a ****, they should go to the mods.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

Damo is spot on. The fact we're all City fans doesn't mean we're not reflective of society in general.

I actually agree with those saying the standard of debate appears to have gone down recently. Part of the reason is possibly that one or two of the more erudite posters have gone off on a hissy-fit but a larger part is that people just don't seem to be able to engage with other peoples' opinions without resorting to abuse.

The Amazon petition thread was a case in point. There was an interesting debate to be had there but the thread had descended into abuse within a few posts (and the OP has to take a lot of the blame for setting the tone in that one).

Eventually it just became a depressing stream of personal insults and we decided to pull it.

It's not about left and right, it's about debating opinions firmly and even passionately, but most of all civilly. There's so few threads (outside the Mod Forum ones) that I feel I want to contribute to these days.

 

[aguero93:20]

You see, to me, this reads: its ok to abuse islam because it will be in the heat of the moment. Its not for someone to call previous poster a ****, they should go to the mods.

"I would deny it. There is no racism, there is maybe one of the players towards another, he has a word or a gesture which is not the correct one, but also the one who is effected by that, he should say that this is a game. We are in a game, and at the end of the game, we shake hands, and this can happen, because we have worked so hard against racism and discrimination."

 

[Damocles]

I've seen plenty of posts where you're saying this board isn't a democracy. One where you even labeled it a monarchy. As a moderator in this monarchy, aren't you supposed to be enforcing Ric's will? Or does that lack of democratic right extend only to those who post here?

I guess you totally missed point one of Ric's post. I didn't so I won't call you a desperately irrational outrage machine who can't spot the difference between the questioning of a policy and the enforcement of a policy and instead will point out that we'll enforce the Code of Conduct as moderators whether we agree with it or not, and always have done.

If Islamophobia has risen in society, this place is then supposed to reflect that? If that's the case, society is fucking wrong, and society's view points shouldn't be welcome here. This isn't a place to absolutely mimic what society does. If it was you'd stop banning "rags" at the drop of a hat.

So your argument is with society rather than Bluemoon. You can find your local society moderators address here if you want to let them know

http://www.parliament.uk/get-involved/contact-your-mp/contacting-your-mp/

I don't even follow the "safe space bollocks" line. Theres no grey here. You either clamp down on abuse or you don't. You can't pick and choose. You let people come on here and be islamphobic as a policy (and as you're a moderator accepting that, its a given it is a suggestion of policy, right?) you bet your ass I, and others, want the right to call them cunts. Plenty of people have been warned and banned for personal abuse, fine, if we are moderating abuse the precedent has been set. But allowing people to be islamophobic as its reflective of society? You think the people banned wouldn't call an islamophobe a **** in real life?

Your problem here is that you've co-opted "Islamophobia" to be automatically abusive that breaks the CoC. It isn't. If it was then we wouldn't need to discuss it because we'd already warn people under the existing rules.

Our problem is that much of the Islamophobia on here isn't abusive under the rules of abuse. Just to be clear here in case you missed it that is literally the problem that we're talking about.

This sounds awfully like you're trying way to hard to brandish some libertarian principles as though this board would settle into a place where people are so free thinking that they can wade towards a totally enlightened Nirvana.

This is you making up something that I'm doing.

Its rubbish

This is you then dismissing the made up thing that I'm doing.

You would have thought you could just not bother to make something up if you're going to immediately dismiss it anyway.

Nice job on the calm and rational debate there Champ. You get the reply you prompt

 

[whp.blue]

The two biggest issues, for me at least, are:

- posters being unnecessarily confrontational and aggressive when people have a different viewpoint. It's tedious and as Ammy said, is stifling debate. There's no need to be a dick just because someone disagrees with you. Its not unreasonable to ask people to treat fellow users with a bit more respect and courtesy.
- the casual Islamaphobia. It's not a problem specific to Bluemoon (one look at Twitter or Facebook tells you that), but there are some increasingly abhorrent views being aired on threads about Muslims and Islam. That has to stop.

Obviously we need to do more to stamp it out so will look at how we can do things better, but there needs to be a degree of self-policing too. I know I keep repeating it, but if posts aren't reported they'll often slip under the radar.

I think you have to be very carefull. Whilst atrocities are being comitted by Muslims in the name of Islam, no matter how much of a minority they actually represent, there will always be a backlash and this is part of human nature and behaivour and I think it is way too easy for people to cry racist or phobia just to stiffle debate.
I have seen worse aniti-semetic comments BTW but they never seem to get mentioned when this subject arises.
We are on an adult forum and nothing should be tabboo.
Same goes for religious and Political debates because people are diametrically opposed in their views it is likely someone may end up offending someone else surely this is adult debate?
I think It needs to be moderted with this in mind. imho of course

 

[BlueDruid]

True enough, I've been stockpiling multiple accounts on here for a bit for a joke I have planned.

Wow - You're the WHOLE of bluemoon and I'm the subject of a huge prank? I'm flattered!