Battle Of Orgreave

No but you tend to spout some line not really saying anything but to get a response from those who bite. I just saying what I think you are.
 
mayo31 said:
No but you tend to spout some line not really saying anything but to get a response from those who bite. I just saying what I think you are.
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Not saying anything? I think my position is pretty clear.

I'd be banned I think for saying what I think your sort are (people that can't believe anyone could think differently on political matters).

And I hold whatever political views I espouse. Terribly sorry if you can't agree with that.
 
So you seriously think there were 5000 hooligans. That's some firm.

Was it the Mib's?

Your position is clear but it should be based on the truth at least.
 
mayo31 said:
So you seriously think there were 5000 hooligans. That's some firm.

Was it the Mib's?

Your position is clear but it should be based on the truth at least.
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Why do you think they were brought in?

Hooligan
noun
slang a rough lawless young person

They were there to Illegally prevent the functioning of the plant and to illegally intimidate the drivers. Seems an apt description.
 
SWP's back said:
That sounds nasty.

Also, you're right, the nation is divided unlike the 70's when everyone was of one mind.
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no society is of one mind ever, but the bleak depressing narative of the 70's that is portrayed today is hardly the whole truth.
 
They were not hooligans who deserved to be battered by the police. That is my point. They were there to protest and stop the plant. That part cannot be argued but to simply say they all hooligans and the police acted correctly ignores parts.

These working men were seeing their lives destroyed. Yes they were led by an idiot but it went deeper to them then we now could ever imagine or understand.

Communities were destroyed. Families also. That was why they went I would guess. Desperate acts we know now as it was all done and dusted already.
 
mayo31 said:
They were not hooligans who deserved to be battered by the police. That is my point. They were there to protest and stop the plant. That part cannot be argued but to simply say they all hooligans and the police acted correctly ignores parts.

These working men were seeing their lives destroyed. Yes they were led by an idiot but it went deeper to them then we now could ever imagine or understand.

Communities were destroyed. Families also. That was why they went I would guess. Desperate acts we know now as it was all done and dusted already.
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What they were doing was illegal and after what happen in '72 when a similar number overran 800 police its hardly surprising the police turned up in larger numbers.
 
SWP's back said:
Why do you think they were brought in?

Hooligan
noun
slang a rough lawless young person

They were there to Illegally prevent the functioning of the plant and to illegally intimidate the drivers. Seems an apt description.
Click to expand...

They were not there to do anything, but stop the lorries coming from striking mines get to the plant, all the reports from the strikes previous and the day were that no intimidation was used and miners were talking to drivers some who actually turned back.
Also all other tales talk of a good atmosphere at the start between local coppers and the miners, it was the MET and Kent forces that took great pleasure being cunts.
A civilised public police force does not cavalery charge it's citizens like some local 19th century militia.
 
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Too simple that argument. It does not factor the emotions. It being illegal was relatively new at the time and they rebelled. Have to factor in what they were losing and how it was made to be a war/battle between thatcher and scargill, it esculated. Also how they were being treated with no benefits. Kids and wife's going without etc.

Difficult to compare now and then. Now we know the legal system prevents strikes or any real protest. Maybe we should have fought more ourselves as now it getting bad in terms of rights, pay and conditions. They being eroded quickly.

I biased as my dad was a miner in Wales in the late 60/70 and as a 13 year old myself at the time I heard him and his views.
 
SWP's back said:
Exactly. The police did a fine job keeping order with 5,000 hooligans brought in by bus to illegally prevent the running of the plant.
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Mate, don't know you, never met but till now I've always understood if not agreed with your comments, but labelling 5000 men 'hooligans' for what, trying to protect their ability to look after their own? It's opinions and comments like this that make this country an increasingly insufferable and desperately sad place to be.
 
urban genie said:
They were not there to do anything but stop the lorries coming from striking mines get to the plant, all the reports from the strikes previous and the day were that no intimidation was used and miners were talking to drivers some who actually turned back.
Also all other tales talk of a good atmosphere at the start between local coppers and the miners, it was the MET and Kent forces that took great pleasure being cunts.
A civilised public police force does not cavalery charge it's citizens like some local 19th century militia.
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The saddest thing I can think of is right wing zombies spouting the exact drivel they read in their bibles be that the old or new Testament, aka the mail / express.

Families were starving. FAMILIES, not just strikers, it makes me sick what as a nation we have allowed ourselves to become, the very embodiment of that evil bitch's I'm alright jack ethos. Fwiw I'll extract my own teeth before voting for the hypocitical anti Semite Corbyn but I'll never EVER vote a party who to prove who was boss dumped the north of our country on its arse and into near terminal decline, and in doing so destroyed our nations proud history at the forefront of manufacture and production, directly and decisively causing the very financial problems that cripple the nation today.

The industry would be dead now anyway, but a slow death would have at least allowed the young to aim for other careers and those too long in the tooth to finish theirs. Thatcher and her heavily paid henchmen from the south were more interested in quick death, and they got what they wanted, suicide, depression and villages and towns from Newcastle to Newport via Yorkshire of course fucked for as long as memory allows. Shame on any self respecting human being who ever views the strike as a glorious victory for government.
 
bluemoonmatt said:
The saddest thing I can think of is right wing zombies spouting the exact drivel they read in their bibles be that the old or new Testament, aka the mail / express.

Families were starving. FAMILIES, not just strikers, it makes me sick what as a nation we have allowed ourselves to become, the very embodiment of that evil bitch's I'm alright jack ethos. Fwiw I'll extract my own teeth before voting for the hypocitical anti Semite Corbyn but I'll never EVER vote a party who to prove who was boss dumped the north of our country on its arse and into near terminal decline, and in doing so destroyed our nations proud history at the forefront of manufacture and production, directly and decisively causing the very financial problems that cripple the nation today.

The industry would be dead now anyway, but a slow death would have at least allowed the young to aim for other careers and those too long in the tooth to finish theirs. Thatcher and her heavily paid henchmen from the south were more interested in quick death, and they got what they wanted, suicide, depression and villages and towns from Newcastle to Newport via Yorkshire of course fucked for as long as memory allows. Shame on any self respecting human being who ever views the strike as a glorious victory for government.
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Unfortunately right wingers are a lost cause when it comes to such topics as this, I despair when I mentioned renationalising the trains the other week to someone I know who votes tory, that I was trying to destroy the country, and a member of the public sector gravy train. Ideologically the mail and sun are beyond the pale and it's a sad state of this country that they are now setting the tone and mindset of a lot of public thought, even traditional left leaning papers have swung to a more establishment tone.
 
Prestwich_Blue said:
Orgreave however was owned by British Steel and therefore the miners had no business being there as it wasn't their employer. They'd been thwarted in their original purpose because there was sufficient coal at the coking plants and power stations to see out the strike, plus he'd got his timing wrong with the strike starting in the spring instead of autumn.
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Amidst all the understandable emotion that accompanies this subject, the practical realities of the strike - its timing and how it was executed - are often overlooked, but were as crucial as anything to contributing to its abject failure. Scargill was strategically and tactically outmanoeuvred by Thatcher to the point of crushing embarrassment. Following her election victory in 1983, she spent the following 12 months Increasing production and stockpiling coal, knowing or expecting what was coming - and quite possibly ultimately provoking it. Hardly Operation Overlord - and yet Scargill's ultimate response was akin to Operation Barbarossa. People say he was right about the Tory's plans for the coal industry, and they'd be right, but he was pitifully deficient in devising an effective means of heading them off at the pass, or at least attempting to. Fucking idiot.
 
gordondaviesmoustache said:
Amidst all the understandable emotion that accompanies this subject, the practical realities of the strike - its timing and how it was executed - are often overlooked, but were as crucial as anything to contributing to its abject failure. Scargill was strategically and tactically outmanoeuvred by Thatcher to the point of crushing embarrassment. Following her election victory in 1983, she spent the following 12 months Increasing production and stockpiling coal, knowing or expecting what was coming - and quite possibly ultimately provoking it. Hardly Operation Overlord - and yet Scargill's ultimate response was akin to Operation Barbarossa. People say he was right about the Tory's plans for the coal industry, and they'd be right, but he was pitifully deficient in devising an effective means of heading them off at the pass, or at least attempting to. Fucking idiot.
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I agree with everything you say, Scargill was played like a fucking fiddle. It doesn't change the fact that the SYP were little more than an instrument of the state. The way the the police acted during the miners strike was nothing short of a disgrace and it boils my piss when I see posters bragging about their mates in the police twatting people because they didn't agree with their political ideals.
As for the links to Hillsborough, the only thing they have in common is the police force involved. However, I honestly believe that the SYP got a free pass at Hillsborough. They did Maggies bidding during the miners strike and were rewarded with a cover up. The families of the Hillsborough dead would have had their answers a lot sooner if it wasn't for Orgreave imo.
Like Dennis Skinner said. "If it isn't worth an inquiry after all this time, why are the relevant govt files still classified"?
I live in a former pit village and the scars are still there now. I doubt they will heal in my lifetime.
 
stony said:
As for the links to Hillsborough, the only thing they have in common is the police force involved. However, I honestly believe that the SYP got a free pass at Hillsborough. They did Maggies bidding during the miners strike and were rewarded with a cover up. The families of the Hillsborough dead would have had their answers a lot sooner if it wasn't for Orgreave imo.
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Completely agree, mate.
 
SWP's back said:
What they were doing was illegal and after what happen in '72 when a similar number overran 800 police its hardly surprising the police turned up in larger numbers.
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urban genie said:
They were not there to do anything, but stop the lorries coming from striking mines get to the plant, all the reports from the strikes previous and the day were that no intimidation was used and miners were talking to drivers some who actually turned back.
Also all other tales talk of a good atmosphere at the start between local coppers and the miners, it was the MET and Kent forces that took great pleasure being cunts.
A civilised public police force does not cavalery charge it's citizens like some local 19th century militia.
Click to expand...

Sorry, been reading this thread for a while but this is shit, I was there. Yes the Met where bastards, but mainly cos they nicked your stuff. Had loads of good natured banter at different pits with the miners. Scargill wanted to bring down a politically elected government, nothing to do with the pit closures
Remember that working miners were killed during this strike.

GMP were known as the Red badges and when we turned up, then don't mess with them. The place was full of shit bags who were not miners. Just there for a ruck, anarchists, what ever. My mate was on a horse, he got dragged off and had the shit kicked out of him. They even tried to stab his horse.
Yeh the cops were cunts
 
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