Bloody Sunday: Soldier F faces murder charges

joe123 said:
not quite sure what level of reality we're operating on when we're encouraging turning a blind eye to the crimes of our armed forces.
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Not only turning a blind eye, but organised protest in favour of the soldier in question.

There's already some awful evidence on him reading the Saville report, and possibly more to come.

Need to wait until the rest of the facts have come out.
 
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kinkyblue said:
If you read back through the thread you will see that I agree that the security forces should be whiter than white but, in the early days the soldiers were sent in with very little training and put in situations they were not prepared for. You need to understand the state of mind some of these lads were in, seen mates shot or blown up then put on the streets and expected to be ‘normal’ this is the reason things should be left alone. You just can’t put yourself in that situation, days on end with very little sleep, being constantly on edge and jumping at every little sound. The terrorist was happily killing security forces families in Ireland, England and the continent, just think how this would affect some of the soldiers.Later on we had plenty of training and strict guidelines to adhere to and rightly so. many of us still suffer severe PTSD from time in the province luckily I’m not one of them and all this just brings it all back.
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I largely agree...but at the time of Bloody Sunday, those accused soldiers werent battle weary war veterans...the paras were sent in because of their reputation....to a civil rights March.

Im glad your time here wasnt as bad as some others...unfortunately that wasnt to be for my dad (RIP) and my step dad who is now suffering from it...whilst still living here. They were in the UDR / RIR so they didnt get to go "home" after a tour. They had live right in the middle of it, in civilian housing areas. They werent on camp.
Although i thankfully never joined up, i still have stark memories of what happened here....i still remember that squaddie pointing his gun at me and laughing as i walked to primary school.
 
AlexWilliamsGloves said:
I largely agree...but at the time of Bloody Sunday, those accused soldiers werent battle weary war veterans...the paras were sent in because of their reputation....to a civil rights March.

Im glad your time here wasnt as bad as some others...unfortunately that wasnt to be for my dad (RIP) and my step dad who is now suffering from it...whilst still living here. They were in the UDR / RIR so they didnt get to go "home" after a tour. They had live right in the middle of it, in civilian housing areas. They werent on camp.
Although i thankfully never joined up, i still have stark memories of what happened here....i still remember that squaddie pointing his gun at me and laughing as i walked to primary school.
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Definitely the wrong people to be sent in at that time and that’s my main point, prosecution should be for the fools that sent shock troops in
 
hilts said:
That is some crock of shit I’m afraid fella.
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If it's a 'crock of shit' as you say, then let's see if you agree if I post the opposite.

Whether the atrocities committed by both sides should have been swept under the carpet as part of the agreement, is an argument, but as it seems we are prosecuting this bloke, then we should condone his actions.

Is that what I should have said ?

I think that if our military is to be held in high esteem, then the standards must be comparable to the standards of terrorists

Is that what I should have said ?

Therefore, imo, this & any similar acts, should not be punished, because we find it unacceptable, but only as as part of tit for tat prosecutions.

Is that what I should have said ?

Not because we support terrorism & want justice for them, quite the opposite, because we don't want to show the world that we are above those kind of people, we don't want justice for the general public, & we don't expect better conduct from our forces, than that of the army of a tinpot dictator or a bunch of gangsters.

Is that what I should have said ?
 
AlexWilliamsGloves said:
Those who "walked free" were caught, tried, prosecuted and locked up...they have since been released on licence. They have faced justice.

These soldiers havent.

Do i think that those "others" who committed murder, and other serious crimes, during the troubles should be prosecuted? Of course i do. And if you feel that strongly about it, start a campaign...just like the poor families of those innocent children did.
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You have omitted the fact that around 200 terrorists were sent amnesty letters whilst on the run.
 
AlexWilliamsGloves said:
Yep, isnt it disgusting that thats what it takes for the government to listen?

And by let em out, we as a country voted overwhelmingly, by referendum that we were prepared to let those prosecuted people out on licence in order to ensure peace after 30 years of murder and violence. Those let out on licence were fighting for the "Irish Cause" as well for the British Crown.
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Drawing a line in the sand is something I understand but moving it for some victims families but not others I don’t(unless you have a campaign obviously lol)

You either go after all the murderers or you don’t go after any.
 
hilts said:
Drawing a line in the sand is something I understand but moving it for some victims families but not others I don’t(unless you have a campaign obviously lol)

You either go after all the murderers or you don’t go after any.
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As has been explained though Hilts umpteen times, especially by Bob, every other soldier that day has had no comeback only this one.

You have to ask why, arnt we better waiting to see the findings?
 
The blue phantom said:
Similar to the other 18 soldiers avoiding any sort of punishment for Bloody Sunday.
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The point which has been raised, is the total and utter skewed morality of giving amnesty to both convicted,
and accused terrorists, yet not for this member of the armed forces. You appear to accept this one sided travesty,
and support the prosecution, that's your view, and there's nought anyone can change about that, Corbyn's view is
the same, which says it all really.
 
Neville Kneville said:
If it's a 'crock of shit' as you say, then let's see if you agree if I post the opposite.

Whether the atrocities committed by both sides should have been swept under the carpet as part of the agreement, is an argument, but as it seems we are prosecuting this bloke, then we should condone his actions.

Is that what I should have said ?

I think that if our military is to be held in high esteem, then the standards must be comparable to the standards of terrorists

Is that what I should have said ?

Therefore, imo, this & any similar acts, should not be punished, because we find it unacceptable, but only as as part of tit for tat prosecutions.

Is that what I should have said ?

Not because we support terrorism & want justice for them, quite the opposite, because we don't want to show the world that we are above those kind of people, we don't want justice for the general public, & we don't expect better conduct from our forces, than that of the army of a tinpot dictator or a bunch of gangsters.

Is that what I should have said ?
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I’m not sure the families of victims can sleep well tonight knowing that we only prosecute murderers whose standards should be better. I’m sure if my kid was killed by any of the terrorists from either side I would be pretty pissed. These terrorists don’t really have very high standards wouldn’t appease me much, hence it’s a crock of shit.

If we are prosecuting one murderer during the troubles we have a duty to prosecute the others. It’s not about sides it’s about justice.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
You have omitted the fact that around 200 terrorists were sent amnesty letters whilst on the run.
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I don't think that's right either.
I don't think that was part of the GFA though. Was that not the UK Government's decision, rightly or wrong?
I still don't see how you can equate the victims of Bloody Sunday, killed by the state (Soldier F) to other victims killed by terrorists.
Other victims families haven't had to go through decades proving their innocence first before getting the person that perpetrated the crime charged.
Don't forget it is known for decades who did the shootings.

I would agree with the sentiment of ex-soldiers supporting their fellow squadie insofar as I do feel that the real culpability goes higher,
but none of us know the full details of the charges and until the evidence is presented, I don't find blindly defending him very objective.

As I said previously, these were UK citizens killed by the state defence forces. If you don't think that this needs the highest levels of scrutiny then we just disagree.
Like I said there is more sympathy shown for the victims of Hillsborough.

I'd equate it to something more like had the army been called in to quash the miners' strike and started shooting into the crowd.
How would that sit with you?
 
AlexWilliamsGloves said:
Omitted as discussed before...the OTR letters are abhorrent...they only came to light after the GFA. The British government suggested and agreed to them.
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Indeed they are abhorrent, but out they went, and that's why there is the current outrage.
As @blueinsa has stated, for some reason, this government is pandering to republicans.
 
The blue phantom said:
As has been explained though Hilts umpteen times, especially by Bob, every other soldier that day has had no comeback only this one.

You have to ask why, arnt we better waiting to see the findings?
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It’s irrelevant in fact it only strengthens my case. Whatever this soldier has done it can’t be any worse than cold blooded killing of innocents. Or do we know look at murder on a scale? You have either committed a crime or you haven’t. If you want to give people amnesty then you give to everyone, it’s not a hard concept.
 
Ancient Citizen said:
The point which has been raised, is the total and utter skewed morality of giving amnesty to both convicted,
and accused terrorists, yet not for this member of the armed forces. You appear to accept this one sided travesty,
and support the prosecution, that's your view, and there's nought anyone can change about that, Corbyn's view is
the same, which says it all really.
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What do you want me to do when i read the saville report which concludes he murdered two people, attempted to murder another four, and changed his story umpteen times

I want him to answer to the courts for it. And yes I'd like charges to be brought against the other party involved in all this shit too, which is unlikely.
 
hilts said:
Drawing a line in the sand is something I understand but moving it for some victims families but not others I don’t(unless you have a campaign obviously lol)

You either go after all the murderers or you don’t go after any.
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Have all investigations been stopped? I wasnt aware they were...the GFA and the release of prisoners dealt with those who were caught and prosecuted. The OTR letters was a shady deal down by the british government and the IRA (and i believe some loyalist criminals, but im not 100% on that). Also, what were the nature of the crimes of those who received OTR letters? Was it murder....was it racketeering...was it membership of a proscribed organisation...was it speeding offences?
Those letters were not a reprieve anyway...they included the points essentially, that at that moment there was no case against them...but if further evidence came to light, they would be investigated. They were letters of assurance to those involved in securing peace.


As of last year, a third of troubles related crimes are still being investgated...the Historical Crimes team was still in effect up until 2015 (i think)

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/...lings-still-under-investigation-36788670.html
 
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