Dave Ewing's Back 'eader
Well-Known Member
The games against The Arse 'n Madrid at The Etihad must be in the top five games I've ever seen City play.
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Breaking records/stats thread
- Thread starter Proy
- Start date
Aba452
Well-Known Member
This is likely to be a long rambling post, so buckle up!
I've always felt teams tend to have eras of dominance but had never quantified this.
What I've done is take an arbitrary point from the 1950s and compare ourselves, livarpool and united. It's a problematic approach so where possible I'll try to analyse management eras. It's a simplified approach which doesn't have any weighting for finance or other factors. Nevertheless it will I hope provide some context for success and failure.
In the 50s, we won the '56 FA Cup, thanks to Bert! In many ways I think he was our greatest hero.
Fromthe late 40s to 50s, Matt Busby won the FA Cup and 3 Leagues.
Liverpool by comparison won nothing significant in this time, they had won titles in the 00s, 20s and one in the 40s.
Between 1945 - 68 Busby's teams won 5 League titles, 2 FA Cups, 1 European Cup and 5 Community Shields. So in 24 years Busby won 13 trophies, working out to 0.54 trophies per year, if there is such a thing! To me it illustrates that he was a great manager, he certainly built uniteds legend, which has become more embellished with the years.
Here I'll briefly divert to highlight a couple of points. Community Shields, does anyone care?!? Well yes, all managers, Pep included, count Community Shields, European Super Cups and Club World Championships, so I'm going to count them too, even if you suspect its stats padding.
I'll also point out that Matt Busby only won one honour as a player, the '34 FA Cup, with......... Manchester City!
So I would argue that uniteds first period of dominance was under Busby, with the football they played, star players as well as the tragedy of Munich and the redemption 10 years later.
Next up to those peculiar ones on the Mersey and to Bill Shankly. In a curious quirk of fate Busby, Shankly and Celtic's Jock Stein were all born within about 20 miles of each other from similar backgrounds and became generational managers.
Shankly was at Anfield from 59 - 73, 15 seasons. He won 1 Second Division title, 3 Leagues, 2 FA Cups, 1 Uefa Cup and 3 Community Shields, 10 trophies in 15 years at 0.66 trophies per year. Again a very impressive achievement and I believe coinciding with the investment by the Moores family with their Littlewoods pools fortune. Sure they also invested in Everton too? This was the start of the Anfield dynasty and reached it's peak with the reds next coach.
Bob Paisley had been a player at Liverpool and a coach there since the 50s. Under his tutelage Liverpool became a trophy machine. From 74 - 83 Bob won 6 League titles, 3 European Cups, 3 League Cups, 1 Uefa Cup, 1 European Super Cup and 6 Community Shields. 20 trophies in 9 glory years, 2.22 trophies per year - magnificent! Apart from that League title in 1977 that should have been Tony Book's........ ..grrrrrrrrr!
Continuity was the order of the day with former Blue Joe Fagan rising in the boot room from 1983 - infamously May 1985. He won 1 League, 1 European Cup and 1 League Cup in 3 years. Sadly he's probably better remembered for the European Cup Final that he didn't win........
3 trophies in 3 years giving 1 trophy per year, still remarkable considering the quality of teams.
'king Kenny Dalglish became player manager then manager from 86 - 91. I have also included his return to the Anfield hotseat in 2011. He won 3 Leagues, 2 FA Cups, 1 League Cup and 4 Community Shields. This works out to 1.43 trophies per year, impressive. He quit, partly due to the effect that Hillsborough had on him, attending the victims funerals. Famously 'king Kenny won the League with Blackburn in 95.
With Dalglish indisposed, the reds sent for 3 time European Cup winner Graeme Souness. From 91 - 93 he won 1 FA Cup, 0.33 trophies per year.
Therefore I would describe Liverpool's era of dominance from 63 - 92, 29 years in which they won 44 trophies, a hugely impressive achievement. Again 13 of these are Community Shields, but they all count!
This works out to 1.52 trophies per year which lessens the impact I think of Paisley in particular.
Of course I've used Wiki for research and hope so far I've managed to accurately transcribe the data whilst maintaining your interest!!
Before I go on the describe the reign of you know who! I'll draw your attention to the playing careers of a few individuals, specifically Dalglish, Souness, Mancini and Mr Guardiola , they're a bit good and then some!
To recap united had some titles and their first European Cup with Busby. Liverpool continued to grow from steady success under Shankly to pure dominance under Paisley. After the Euro ban, Liverpool had plenty of decent strikers, won cups but the League crown was about to switch to "rivals" united.
Two things happened from the late 80s to the early 90s, united were floated on the Stock Exchange and the new breakaway Premier League was formed. Both endeavours were designed to monetize football and united in particular, as never before. The architects of the PL were united, Liverpool, arsenal, spurs and Everton. We were included, though I'm sure as an afterthought, the PL was all about those 3 teams in red.
Becoming a PLC and being Sly's pin ups meant that uniteds revenues grew phenomenally in the 90s and they certainly took advantage.
Alex Ferguson started as united manager in 86 and reaped the benefits of having the slickest commercial operation in football for 27 long years! Seem to recall in September 1989 they had a game at little inconsequential City, happy times. A real sliding doors moment, imagine what would have happened if they'd ditched the red nosed tyrant then......???
Anyway the tale of the tape reads 13 League titles, 2 European Cups, 5 FA Cups, 4 League Cups, 1 European Cup Winners Cup, 1 European Super Cup, 10 Community Shields, 1 Club World Cup, 1 Intercontinental title. That's 38 trophies in 27 years or 1.41 trophies per year. Utterly daunting for all who followed him to stretford.
There are a number of points to make about AFs reign, they didn't have sustained title challengers, arsenal a few times, then Chelsea under mourinho, most years it was by how many points! As I've said united had a significant financial advantage and could break the transfer record repeatedly to poach players, strengthening themselves and weakening their rivals.
A good thing apparently so should never be queried. Ever?!
It's worth comparing the above to the combined record Shankly - Souness which I make as 13 Leagues, 4 European Cups, 5 FA Cups, 2 Uefa Cups, 1 European Super Cup and 5 League Cups.
Very similar records but significantly different in term of European trophies IE AF has 2 EC, 1 ECWC and 1 SC against 4 EC, 2 Uefa and 1 SC.
I would argue that for the resources at his disposal, he underachieved in Europe, not helped by the 5 year ban after Heysel. However despite his many and considerable human failings, he was a phenomenal football coach and his record at Aberdeen in breaking up the Glasgow duopoly sand winning European trophies is incredible and worthy of respect.
Now we come to the bit we've all been waiting for, Manchester's finest, City!
We'd won the FA Cup in 1904, won the League for the first time in 37 along with another FA Cup in 34.
In 56 we won the Trautman FA Cup, after losing in the final to Newcastle the previous year.
In 65 Joe Mercer came in the the Maine Road hotseat with coach Malcolm Allison. Mercer had been a League winner as a player and as a manager, previously with Villa. In 66 they won the 2nd Division and in 68 won the League ahead of Busbys prospective European Champions. In 69 the FA Cup was won, in 70 the European Cup Winners Cup and League Cup were added to the trophy cabinet.
The partnership didn't last, there were power struggles in the boardroom and a certain Cuban heeled dictator was waiting in the wings..........
That first golden period of City's history produced 1 League, 1 FA Cup, 1 European Cup Winners Cup, 1 League Cup, 1 Community Shield and 1 Second Division title so 6 trophies in years, a great achievement.
It's worth highlighting that City were the first team to win a European and domestic cup double. The opposition was formidable too with united, Liverpool but also Leeds, arsenal, Chelsea and Everton in the mix.
AS I was only born in late 70, I've had to take the word of my brother on trust! He felt that through the 70s until 81, were were always there or thereabouts. What he means is we were in cup finals, challenged for the title and had a team full of internationals.
Untill the takeover, our second most successful manager was also our most decorated captain, Tony Book.
He moved into coaching at City and with the managerial casualties mounting, became our perennial caretaker manager. However when he was manager in his own right, he won his only trophy as a coach. Denis Tueart and that overhead kick!! Happy happy days. Book was manager from 74 -79 so 1 trophy in 5 years. Considering it was as swales' reign of terror was starting, that Tony did ever so well.
As we all know football was ruined in 2008 when Sheikh Mansour brought Manchester City Football Club. The chunky thighed Hughes was shown the door and a new scarf wearing era under the volcanic smoldering and quite mad Signor Roberto Mancini.
To Roberto's credit he immediately picked up on the disrespect and mockery of the stretford set. He wanted to tear down that ticking banner, and shove it....
We had spent under Hughes and he brought us both Kompany and Zabletta, pre takeover. It accelerated under Mancini, with Aguero and that nice David Silva.
For me he showed that we could compete with united and so we did. An FA Cup semi final, Yaya was yes yes! The stokies were defeated in the final in 2011. I don't mind telling you I had something in my eye that afternoon! 2012 and a straight shoot out between us and the rags. QPR at home for the title, we can't fck this up...........Dzeko, Balotelli and Sergio stopped me having a coronary! Even now it's utterly unreal. And the fact that united had thought they'd won it at Sunderland!!!!!!!!! We got to another FA Cup final before colliding with the immovable object that was wigan!!!!!!! Mancini had madetoo many enemies and was unceremoniously dumped. His count was 1 League title, 1 FA Cup and 1 Community Shield, 3 trophies in 4 years or 0.75 trophies per year. I was ecstatic!
Manuel Pellegrini was next and is unfairly thought of as a placeholder. In his first season he was stellar, 1 League title and 1 League Cup, not good enough to be manager of the year lol! The next season wasn't great but in 16 the League Cup was won. So between 2013-16 MP won 3 trophies. The main act was about to arrive.
Pep Guardiola came to the Etihad, " bringing no guarantee of success" in 2016. He set about recruiting younger players and modified the way City played, with quick transitions and ball retention. The next season he was ready to challenge for the title. He achieved the domestic treble, 100 points, a domestic and European treble as champions and literally changed the way football could be played. The bald cardigan wearing Catalan has continued to evolve City's play and influenced football at all levels. His count reads 5 League titles, 1 European Cup, 2 FA Cups, 4 League Cups, 1 European Super Cup, 1 Club World Cup and 2 Community Shields. That is 16 trophies in 7 years or 2.28 trophies per year. Just staggering! And he's not finished yet!
Our last 3 managers have won 22 trophies in 12 years or 1.83 trophies per year. These truly are glory glory days.
Here I could add the trophies united have won since 2013, but I think a more informative comparison is with the current iteration of Liverpool.
Klopp has been there 8 years and has won 1 League, 1 European Cup, 1 European Super Cup, 1 FA Cup, 1 League Cup, 1 Club World Cup and 1 Community Shield. So from 2015 to now he's won 7 trophies or 0.87 trophies per year. Whatever you think of him, that is very impressive. However there is a false narrative that Klopp is on a par with Pep. Both good managers with great resources but Pep has 16 trophies in 7 years to Klopp's 7 in 8.
I can't say for certain, but I do think there were slightly more challengers to Liverpool, Forrest, Villa, Ipswich, Arsenal.
From the takeover, I think the PL has become more competitive, certainly more so than uniteds 13 titles in 20 years. Unfortunately in order to compete, you need money, remember when Villa were splashing the cash, or Everton?
Also it is astonishing that that in their relative periods of dominance, united and Liverpool have never gone head to head.
We have done with both united and Liverpool a number of times. I would also say that the races we had with Liverpool have actually brought out the best in us. SThere are a lot of big beasts around including Chelsea, arsenal spurs who have large resources too. As united consistently prove having money and spending it wisely are 2 very different things!
Writing this, I have been fascinated by the very human stories of these managers. People like Busby, Shankly, Paisley, Fagan, Mercer comported themselves with the utmost integrity, and had utter respect for their rivals. I think Dalglish, Souness, Ron Atkinson, Manuel and Pep are also cut from this cloth.
Roberto was a divisive figure and would probably admit he can be a right petulant so and so.
However Ferguson and Klopp, along with Arteta go out of their way to rile people and worse, to belittle them. Postaglu comes across as a decent guy without resorting to being a bully, ditto Emerai.
Pep for all he's achieved wherever he's been has been thoroughly humble and grounded. It doesn't take much!
Finally I will also say that there is no harm in respecting other manager's records, it doesn't make you any less of a Blue for appreciating Shankly, Stein or .... Ferguson!
I hope this analysis also shows just how far we've come as a club. Never forget!
I've always felt teams tend to have eras of dominance but had never quantified this.
What I've done is take an arbitrary point from the 1950s and compare ourselves, livarpool and united. It's a problematic approach so where possible I'll try to analyse management eras. It's a simplified approach which doesn't have any weighting for finance or other factors. Nevertheless it will I hope provide some context for success and failure.
In the 50s, we won the '56 FA Cup, thanks to Bert! In many ways I think he was our greatest hero.
Fromthe late 40s to 50s, Matt Busby won the FA Cup and 3 Leagues.
Liverpool by comparison won nothing significant in this time, they had won titles in the 00s, 20s and one in the 40s.
Between 1945 - 68 Busby's teams won 5 League titles, 2 FA Cups, 1 European Cup and 5 Community Shields. So in 24 years Busby won 13 trophies, working out to 0.54 trophies per year, if there is such a thing! To me it illustrates that he was a great manager, he certainly built uniteds legend, which has become more embellished with the years.
Here I'll briefly divert to highlight a couple of points. Community Shields, does anyone care?!? Well yes, all managers, Pep included, count Community Shields, European Super Cups and Club World Championships, so I'm going to count them too, even if you suspect its stats padding.
I'll also point out that Matt Busby only won one honour as a player, the '34 FA Cup, with......... Manchester City!
So I would argue that uniteds first period of dominance was under Busby, with the football they played, star players as well as the tragedy of Munich and the redemption 10 years later.
Next up to those peculiar ones on the Mersey and to Bill Shankly. In a curious quirk of fate Busby, Shankly and Celtic's Jock Stein were all born within about 20 miles of each other from similar backgrounds and became generational managers.
Shankly was at Anfield from 59 - 73, 15 seasons. He won 1 Second Division title, 3 Leagues, 2 FA Cups, 1 Uefa Cup and 3 Community Shields, 10 trophies in 15 years at 0.66 trophies per year. Again a very impressive achievement and I believe coinciding with the investment by the Moores family with their Littlewoods pools fortune. Sure they also invested in Everton too? This was the start of the Anfield dynasty and reached it's peak with the reds next coach.
Bob Paisley had been a player at Liverpool and a coach there since the 50s. Under his tutelage Liverpool became a trophy machine. From 74 - 83 Bob won 6 League titles, 3 European Cups, 3 League Cups, 1 Uefa Cup, 1 European Super Cup and 6 Community Shields. 20 trophies in 9 glory years, 2.22 trophies per year - magnificent! Apart from that League title in 1977 that should have been Tony Book's........ ..grrrrrrrrr!
Continuity was the order of the day with former Blue Joe Fagan rising in the boot room from 1983 - infamously May 1985. He won 1 League, 1 European Cup and 1 League Cup in 3 years. Sadly he's probably better remembered for the European Cup Final that he didn't win........
3 trophies in 3 years giving 1 trophy per year, still remarkable considering the quality of teams.
'king Kenny Dalglish became player manager then manager from 86 - 91. I have also included his return to the Anfield hotseat in 2011. He won 3 Leagues, 2 FA Cups, 1 League Cup and 4 Community Shields. This works out to 1.43 trophies per year, impressive. He quit, partly due to the effect that Hillsborough had on him, attending the victims funerals. Famously 'king Kenny won the League with Blackburn in 95.
With Dalglish indisposed, the reds sent for 3 time European Cup winner Graeme Souness. From 91 - 93 he won 1 FA Cup, 0.33 trophies per year.
Therefore I would describe Liverpool's era of dominance from 63 - 92, 29 years in which they won 44 trophies, a hugely impressive achievement. Again 13 of these are Community Shields, but they all count!
This works out to 1.52 trophies per year which lessens the impact I think of Paisley in particular.
Of course I've used Wiki for research and hope so far I've managed to accurately transcribe the data whilst maintaining your interest!!
Before I go on the describe the reign of you know who! I'll draw your attention to the playing careers of a few individuals, specifically Dalglish, Souness, Mancini and Mr Guardiola , they're a bit good and then some!
To recap united had some titles and their first European Cup with Busby. Liverpool continued to grow from steady success under Shankly to pure dominance under Paisley. After the Euro ban, Liverpool had plenty of decent strikers, won cups but the League crown was about to switch to "rivals" united.
Two things happened from the late 80s to the early 90s, united were floated on the Stock Exchange and the new breakaway Premier League was formed. Both endeavours were designed to monetize football and united in particular, as never before. The architects of the PL were united, Liverpool, arsenal, spurs and Everton. We were included, though I'm sure as an afterthought, the PL was all about those 3 teams in red.
Becoming a PLC and being Sly's pin ups meant that uniteds revenues grew phenomenally in the 90s and they certainly took advantage.
Alex Ferguson started as united manager in 86 and reaped the benefits of having the slickest commercial operation in football for 27 long years! Seem to recall in September 1989 they had a game at little inconsequential City, happy times. A real sliding doors moment, imagine what would have happened if they'd ditched the red nosed tyrant then......???
Anyway the tale of the tape reads 13 League titles, 2 European Cups, 5 FA Cups, 4 League Cups, 1 European Cup Winners Cup, 1 European Super Cup, 10 Community Shields, 1 Club World Cup, 1 Intercontinental title. That's 38 trophies in 27 years or 1.41 trophies per year. Utterly daunting for all who followed him to stretford.
There are a number of points to make about AFs reign, they didn't have sustained title challengers, arsenal a few times, then Chelsea under mourinho, most years it was by how many points! As I've said united had a significant financial advantage and could break the transfer record repeatedly to poach players, strengthening themselves and weakening their rivals.
A good thing apparently so should never be queried. Ever?!
It's worth comparing the above to the combined record Shankly - Souness which I make as 13 Leagues, 4 European Cups, 5 FA Cups, 2 Uefa Cups, 1 European Super Cup and 5 League Cups.
Very similar records but significantly different in term of European trophies IE AF has 2 EC, 1 ECWC and 1 SC against 4 EC, 2 Uefa and 1 SC.
I would argue that for the resources at his disposal, he underachieved in Europe, not helped by the 5 year ban after Heysel. However despite his many and considerable human failings, he was a phenomenal football coach and his record at Aberdeen in breaking up the Glasgow duopoly sand winning European trophies is incredible and worthy of respect.
Now we come to the bit we've all been waiting for, Manchester's finest, City!
We'd won the FA Cup in 1904, won the League for the first time in 37 along with another FA Cup in 34.
In 56 we won the Trautman FA Cup, after losing in the final to Newcastle the previous year.
In 65 Joe Mercer came in the the Maine Road hotseat with coach Malcolm Allison. Mercer had been a League winner as a player and as a manager, previously with Villa. In 66 they won the 2nd Division and in 68 won the League ahead of Busbys prospective European Champions. In 69 the FA Cup was won, in 70 the European Cup Winners Cup and League Cup were added to the trophy cabinet.
The partnership didn't last, there were power struggles in the boardroom and a certain Cuban heeled dictator was waiting in the wings..........
That first golden period of City's history produced 1 League, 1 FA Cup, 1 European Cup Winners Cup, 1 League Cup, 1 Community Shield and 1 Second Division title so 6 trophies in years, a great achievement.
It's worth highlighting that City were the first team to win a European and domestic cup double. The opposition was formidable too with united, Liverpool but also Leeds, arsenal, Chelsea and Everton in the mix.
AS I was only born in late 70, I've had to take the word of my brother on trust! He felt that through the 70s until 81, were were always there or thereabouts. What he means is we were in cup finals, challenged for the title and had a team full of internationals.
Untill the takeover, our second most successful manager was also our most decorated captain, Tony Book.
He moved into coaching at City and with the managerial casualties mounting, became our perennial caretaker manager. However when he was manager in his own right, he won his only trophy as a coach. Denis Tueart and that overhead kick!! Happy happy days. Book was manager from 74 -79 so 1 trophy in 5 years. Considering it was as swales' reign of terror was starting, that Tony did ever so well.
As we all know football was ruined in 2008 when Sheikh Mansour brought Manchester City Football Club. The chunky thighed Hughes was shown the door and a new scarf wearing era under the volcanic smoldering and quite mad Signor Roberto Mancini.
To Roberto's credit he immediately picked up on the disrespect and mockery of the stretford set. He wanted to tear down that ticking banner, and shove it....
We had spent under Hughes and he brought us both Kompany and Zabletta, pre takeover. It accelerated under Mancini, with Aguero and that nice David Silva.
For me he showed that we could compete with united and so we did. An FA Cup semi final, Yaya was yes yes! The stokies were defeated in the final in 2011. I don't mind telling you I had something in my eye that afternoon! 2012 and a straight shoot out between us and the rags. QPR at home for the title, we can't fck this up...........Dzeko, Balotelli and Sergio stopped me having a coronary! Even now it's utterly unreal. And the fact that united had thought they'd won it at Sunderland!!!!!!!!! We got to another FA Cup final before colliding with the immovable object that was wigan!!!!!!! Mancini had madetoo many enemies and was unceremoniously dumped. His count was 1 League title, 1 FA Cup and 1 Community Shield, 3 trophies in 4 years or 0.75 trophies per year. I was ecstatic!
Manuel Pellegrini was next and is unfairly thought of as a placeholder. In his first season he was stellar, 1 League title and 1 League Cup, not good enough to be manager of the year lol! The next season wasn't great but in 16 the League Cup was won. So between 2013-16 MP won 3 trophies. The main act was about to arrive.
Pep Guardiola came to the Etihad, " bringing no guarantee of success" in 2016. He set about recruiting younger players and modified the way City played, with quick transitions and ball retention. The next season he was ready to challenge for the title. He achieved the domestic treble, 100 points, a domestic and European treble as champions and literally changed the way football could be played. The bald cardigan wearing Catalan has continued to evolve City's play and influenced football at all levels. His count reads 5 League titles, 1 European Cup, 2 FA Cups, 4 League Cups, 1 European Super Cup, 1 Club World Cup and 2 Community Shields. That is 16 trophies in 7 years or 2.28 trophies per year. Just staggering! And he's not finished yet!
Our last 3 managers have won 22 trophies in 12 years or 1.83 trophies per year. These truly are glory glory days.
Here I could add the trophies united have won since 2013, but I think a more informative comparison is with the current iteration of Liverpool.
Klopp has been there 8 years and has won 1 League, 1 European Cup, 1 European Super Cup, 1 FA Cup, 1 League Cup, 1 Club World Cup and 1 Community Shield. So from 2015 to now he's won 7 trophies or 0.87 trophies per year. Whatever you think of him, that is very impressive. However there is a false narrative that Klopp is on a par with Pep. Both good managers with great resources but Pep has 16 trophies in 7 years to Klopp's 7 in 8.
I can't say for certain, but I do think there were slightly more challengers to Liverpool, Forrest, Villa, Ipswich, Arsenal.
From the takeover, I think the PL has become more competitive, certainly more so than uniteds 13 titles in 20 years. Unfortunately in order to compete, you need money, remember when Villa were splashing the cash, or Everton?
Also it is astonishing that that in their relative periods of dominance, united and Liverpool have never gone head to head.
We have done with both united and Liverpool a number of times. I would also say that the races we had with Liverpool have actually brought out the best in us. SThere are a lot of big beasts around including Chelsea, arsenal spurs who have large resources too. As united consistently prove having money and spending it wisely are 2 very different things!
Writing this, I have been fascinated by the very human stories of these managers. People like Busby, Shankly, Paisley, Fagan, Mercer comported themselves with the utmost integrity, and had utter respect for their rivals. I think Dalglish, Souness, Ron Atkinson, Manuel and Pep are also cut from this cloth.
Roberto was a divisive figure and would probably admit he can be a right petulant so and so.
However Ferguson and Klopp, along with Arteta go out of their way to rile people and worse, to belittle them. Postaglu comes across as a decent guy without resorting to being a bully, ditto Emerai.
Pep for all he's achieved wherever he's been has been thoroughly humble and grounded. It doesn't take much!
Finally I will also say that there is no harm in respecting other manager's records, it doesn't make you any less of a Blue for appreciating Shankly, Stein or .... Ferguson!
I hope this analysis also shows just how far we've come as a club. Never forget!
Bentheblue
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 8 Jan 2005
- Messages
- 1,802
I think the three draws were in 3 of our last 4 home games. We were ahead in all 3 nearing final whistle, So close to winning every game at home In a year.
Last edited:
Dave Ewing's Back 'eader
Well-Known Member
I hope this analysis also shows just how far we've come as a club. Never forget!
Could anyone forget this?
Manchester City vs Swindon Town
Division Two (Old)Sat 16 January 1965.
Score: L 1-2
Attendance: 8015
I think 8000 were Town fans!
BertTrautmann'sParachute
Well-Known Member
Great effort, mate!This is likely to be a long rambling post, so buckle up!
I've always felt teams tend to have eras of dominance but had never quantified this.
What I've done is take an arbitrary point from the 1950s and compare ourselves, livarpool and united. It's a problematic approach so where possible I'll try to analyse management eras. It's a simplified approach which doesn't have any weighting for finance or other factors. Nevertheless it will I hope provide some context for success and failure.
In the 50s, we won the '56 FA Cup, thanks to Bert! In many ways I think he was our greatest hero.
Fromthe late 40s to 50s, Matt Busby won the FA Cup and 3 Leagues.
Liverpool by comparison won nothing significant in this time, they had won titles in the 00s, 20s and one in the 40s.
Between 1945 - 68 Busby's teams won 5 League titles, 2 FA Cups, 1 European Cup and 5 Community Shields. So in 24 years Busby won 13 trophies, working out to 0.54 trophies per year, if there is such a thing! To me it illustrates that he was a great manager, he certainly built uniteds legend, which has become more embellished with the years.
Here I'll briefly divert to highlight a couple of points. Community Shields, does anyone care?!? Well yes, all managers, Pep included, count Community Shields, European Super Cups and Club World Championships, so I'm going to count them too, even if you suspect its stats padding.
I'll also point out that Matt Busby only won one honour as a player, the '34 FA Cup, with......... Manchester City!
So I would argue that uniteds first period of dominance was under Busby, with the football they played, star players as well as the tragedy of Munich and the redemption 10 years later.
Next up to those peculiar ones on the Mersey and to Bill Shankly. In a curious quirk of fate Busby, Shankly and Celtic's Jock Stein were all born within about 20 miles of each other from similar backgrounds and became generational managers.
Shankly was at Anfield from 59 - 73, 15 seasons. He won 1 Second Division title, 3 Leagues, 2 FA Cups, 1 Uefa Cup and 3 Community Shields, 10 trophies in 15 years at 0.66 trophies per year. Again a very impressive achievement and I believe coinciding with the investment by the Moores family with their Littlewoods pools fortune. Sure they also invested in Everton too? This was the start of the Anfield dynasty and reached it's peak with the reds next coach.
Bob Paisley had been a player at Liverpool and a coach there since the 50s. Under his tutelage Liverpool became a trophy machine. From 74 - 83 Bob won 6 League titles, 3 European Cups, 3 League Cups, 1 Uefa Cup, 1 European Super Cup and 6 Community Shields. 20 trophies in 9 glory years, 2.22 trophies per year - magnificent! Apart from that League title in 1977 that should have been Tony Book's........ ..grrrrrrrrr!
Continuity was the order of the day with former Blue Joe Fagan rising in the boot room from 1983 - infamously May 1985. He won 1 League, 1 European Cup and 1 League Cup in 3 years. Sadly he's probably better remembered for the European Cup Final that he didn't win........
3 trophies in 3 years giving 1 trophy per year, still remarkable considering the quality of teams.
'king Kenny Dalglish became player manager then manager from 86 - 91. I have also included his return to the Anfield hotseat in 2011. He won 3 Leagues, 2 FA Cups, 1 League Cup and 4 Community Shields. This works out to 1.43 trophies per year, impressive. He quit, partly due to the effect that Hillsborough had on him, attending the victims funerals. Famously 'king Kenny won the League with Blackburn in 95.
With Dalglish indisposed, the reds sent for 3 time European Cup winner Graeme Souness. From 91 - 93 he won 1 FA Cup, 0.33 trophies per year.
Therefore I would describe Liverpool's era of dominance from 63 - 92, 29 years in which they won 44 trophies, a hugely impressive achievement. Again 13 of these are Community Shields, but they all count!
This works out to 1.52 trophies per year which lessens the impact I think of Paisley in particular.
Of course I've used Wiki for research and hope so far I've managed to accurately transcribe the data whilst maintaining your interest!!
Before I go on the describe the reign of you know who! I'll draw your attention to the playing careers of a few individuals, specifically Dalglish, Souness, Mancini and Mr Guardiola , they're a bit good and then some!
To recap united had some titles and their first European Cup with Busby. Liverpool continued to grow from steady success under Shankly to pure dominance under Paisley. After the Euro ban, Liverpool had plenty of decent strikers, won cups but the League crown was about to switch to "rivals" united.
Two things happened from the late 80s to the early 90s, united were floated on the Stock Exchange and the new breakaway Premier League was formed. Both endeavours were designed to monetize football and united in particular, as never before. The architects of the PL were united, Liverpool, arsenal, spurs and Everton. We were included, though I'm sure as an afterthought, the PL was all about those 3 teams in red.
Becoming a PLC and being Sly's pin ups meant that uniteds revenues grew phenomenally in the 90s and they certainly took advantage.
Alex Ferguson started as united manager in 86 and reaped the benefits of having the slickest commercial operation in football for 27 long years! Seem to recall in September 1989 they had a game at little inconsequential City, happy times. A real sliding doors moment, imagine what would have happened if they'd ditched the red nosed tyrant then......???
Anyway the tale of the tape reads 13 League titles, 2 European Cups, 5 FA Cups, 4 League Cups, 1 European Cup Winners Cup, 1 European Super Cup, 10 Community Shields, 1 Club World Cup, 1 Intercontinental title. That's 38 trophies in 27 years or 1.41 trophies per year. Utterly daunting for all who followed him to stretford.
There are a number of points to make about AFs reign, they didn't have sustained title challengers, arsenal a few times, then Chelsea under mourinho, most years it was by how many points! As I've said united had a significant financial advantage and could break the transfer record repeatedly to poach players, strengthening themselves and weakening their rivals.
A good thing apparently so should never be queried. Ever?!
It's worth comparing the above to the combined record Shankly - Souness which I make as 13 Leagues, 4 European Cups, 5 FA Cups, 2 Uefa Cups, 1 European Super Cup and 5 League Cups.
Very similar records but significantly different in term of European trophies IE AF has 2 EC, 1 ECWC and 1 SC against 4 EC, 2 Uefa and 1 SC.
I would argue that for the resources at his disposal, he underachieved in Europe, not helped by the 5 year ban after Heysel. However despite his many and considerable human failings, he was a phenomenal football coach and his record at Aberdeen in breaking up the Glasgow duopoly sand winning European trophies is incredible and worthy of respect.
Now we come to the bit we've all been waiting for, Manchester's finest, City!
We'd won the FA Cup in 1904, won the League for the first time in 37 along with another FA Cup in 34.
In 56 we won the Trautman FA Cup, after losing in the final to Newcastle the previous year.
In 65 Joe Mercer came in the the Maine Road hotseat with coach Malcolm Allison. Mercer had been a League winner as a player and as a manager, previously with Villa. In 66 they won the 2nd Division and in 68 won the League ahead of Busbys prospective European Champions. In 69 the FA Cup was won, in 70 the European Cup Winners Cup and League Cup were added to the trophy cabinet.
The partnership didn't last, there were power struggles in the boardroom and a certain Cuban heeled dictator was waiting in the wings..........
That first golden period of City's history produced 1 League, 1 FA Cup, 1 European Cup Winners Cup, 1 League Cup, 1 Community Shield and 1 Second Division title so 6 trophies in years, a great achievement.
It's worth highlighting that City were the first team to win a European and domestic cup double. The opposition was formidable too with united, Liverpool but also Leeds, arsenal, Chelsea and Everton in the mix.
AS I was only born in late 70, I've had to take the word of my brother on trust! He felt that through the 70s until 81, were were always there or thereabouts. What he means is we were in cup finals, challenged for the title and had a team full of internationals.
Untill the takeover, our second most successful manager was also our most decorated captain, Tony Book.
He moved into coaching at City and with the managerial casualties mounting, became our perennial caretaker manager. However when he was manager in his own right, he won his only trophy as a coach. Denis Tueart and that overhead kick!! Happy happy days. Book was manager from 74 -79 so 1 trophy in 5 years. Considering it was as swales' reign of terror was starting, that Tony did ever so well.
As we all know football was ruined in 2008 when Sheikh Mansour brought Manchester City Football Club. The chunky thighed Hughes was shown the door and a new scarf wearing era under the volcanic smoldering and quite mad Signor Roberto Mancini.
To Roberto's credit he immediately picked up on the disrespect and mockery of the stretford set. He wanted to tear down that ticking banner, and shove it....
We had spent under Hughes and he brought us both Kompany and Zabletta, pre takeover. It accelerated under Mancini, with Aguero and that nice David Silva.
For me he showed that we could compete with united and so we did. An FA Cup semi final, Yaya was yes yes! The stokies were defeated in the final in 2011. I don't mind telling you I had something in my eye that afternoon! 2012 and a straight shoot out between us and the rags. QPR at home for the title, we can't fck this up...........Dzeko, Balotelli and Sergio stopped me having a coronary! Even now it's utterly unreal. And the fact that united had thought they'd won it at Sunderland!!!!!!!!! We got to another FA Cup final before colliding with the immovable object that was wigan!!!!!!! Mancini had madetoo many enemies and was unceremoniously dumped. His count was 1 League title, 1 FA Cup and 1 Community Shield, 3 trophies in 4 years or 0.75 trophies per year. I was ecstatic!
Manuel Pellegrini was next and is unfairly thought of as a placeholder. In his first season he was stellar, 1 League title and 1 League Cup, not good enough to be manager of the year lol! The next season wasn't great but in 16 the League Cup was won. So between 2013-16 MP won 3 trophies. The main act was about to arrive.
Pep Guardiola came to the Etihad, " bringing no guarantee of success" in 2016. He set about recruiting younger players and modified the way City played, with quick transitions and ball retention. The next season he was ready to challenge for the title. He achieved the domestic treble, 100 points, a domestic and European treble as champions and literally changed the way football could be played. The bald cardigan wearing Catalan has continued to evolve City's play and influenced football at all levels. His count reads 5 League titles, 1 European Cup, 2 FA Cups, 4 League Cups, 1 European Super Cup, 1 Club World Cup and 2 Community Shields. That is 16 trophies in 7 years or 2.28 trophies per year. Just staggering! And he's not finished yet!
Our last 3 managers have won 22 trophies in 12 years or 1.83 trophies per year. These truly are glory glory days.
Here I could add the trophies united have won since 2013, but I think a more informative comparison is with the current iteration of Liverpool.
Klopp has been there 8 years and has won 1 League, 1 European Cup, 1 European Super Cup, 1 FA Cup, 1 League Cup, 1 Club World Cup and 1 Community Shield. So from 2015 to now he's won 7 trophies or 0.87 trophies per year. Whatever you think of him, that is very impressive. However there is a false narrative that Klopp is on a par with Pep. Both good managers with great resources but Pep has 16 trophies in 7 years to Klopp's 7 in 8.
I can't say for certain, but I do think there were slightly more challengers to Liverpool, Forrest, Villa, Ipswich, Arsenal.
From the takeover, I think the PL has become more competitive, certainly more so than uniteds 13 titles in 20 years. Unfortunately in order to compete, you need money, remember when Villa were splashing the cash, or Everton?
Also it is astonishing that that in their relative periods of dominance, united and Liverpool have never gone head to head.
We have done with both united and Liverpool a number of times. I would also say that the races we had with Liverpool have actually brought out the best in us. SThere are a lot of big beasts around including Chelsea, arsenal spurs who have large resources too. As united consistently prove having money and spending it wisely are 2 very different things!
Writing this, I have been fascinated by the very human stories of these managers. People like Busby, Shankly, Paisley, Fagan, Mercer comported themselves with the utmost integrity, and had utter respect for their rivals. I think Dalglish, Souness, Ron Atkinson, Manuel and Pep are also cut from this cloth.
Roberto was a divisive figure and would probably admit he can be a right petulant so and so.
However Ferguson and Klopp, along with Arteta go out of their way to rile people and worse, to belittle them. Postaglu comes across as a decent guy without resorting to being a bully, ditto Emerai.
Pep for all he's achieved wherever he's been has been thoroughly humble and grounded. It doesn't take much!
Finally I will also say that there is no harm in respecting other manager's records, it doesn't make you any less of a Blue for appreciating Shankly, Stein or .... Ferguson!
I hope this analysis also shows just how far we've come as a club. Never forget!
lancs blue
Well-Known Member
City have now set a new record for consecutive FA Cup ties without a draw, 34 starting from the Huddersfield replay win in 2017, 29 wins 5 defeats.
blueandwhite
Active Member
- Joined
- 28 May 2015
- Messages
- 44
Great post and thoroughly well thought out! Thank you.This is likely to be a long rambling post, so buckle up!
I've always felt teams tend to have eras of dominance but had never quantified this.
What I've done is take an arbitrary point from the 1950s and compare ourselves, livarpool and united. It's a problematic approach so where possible I'll try to analyse management eras. It's a simplified approach which doesn't have any weighting for finance or other factors. Nevertheless it will I hope provide some context for success and failure.
In the 50s, we won the '56 FA Cup, thanks to Bert! In many ways I think he was our greatest hero.
Fromthe late 40s to 50s, Matt Busby won the FA Cup and 3 Leagues.
Liverpool by comparison won nothing significant in this time, they had won titles in the 00s, 20s and one in the 40s.
Between 1945 - 68 Busby's teams won 5 League titles, 2 FA Cups, 1 European Cup and 5 Community Shields. So in 24 years Busby won 13 trophies, working out to 0.54 trophies per year, if there is such a thing! To me it illustrates that he was a great manager, he certainly built uniteds legend, which has become more embellished with the years.
Here I'll briefly divert to highlight a couple of points. Community Shields, does anyone care?!? Well yes, all managers, Pep included, count Community Shields, European Super Cups and Club World Championships, so I'm going to count them too, even if you suspect its stats padding.
I'll also point out that Matt Busby only won one honour as a player, the '34 FA Cup, with......... Manchester City!
So I would argue that uniteds first period of dominance was under Busby, with the football they played, star players as well as the tragedy of Munich and the redemption 10 years later.
Next up to those peculiar ones on the Mersey and to Bill Shankly. In a curious quirk of fate Busby, Shankly and Celtic's Jock Stein were all born within about 20 miles of each other from similar backgrounds and became generational managers.
Shankly was at Anfield from 59 - 73, 15 seasons. He won 1 Second Division title, 3 Leagues, 2 FA Cups, 1 Uefa Cup and 3 Community Shields, 10 trophies in 15 years at 0.66 trophies per year. Again a very impressive achievement and I believe coinciding with the investment by the Moores family with their Littlewoods pools fortune. Sure they also invested in Everton too? This was the start of the Anfield dynasty and reached it's peak with the reds next coach.
Bob Paisley had been a player at Liverpool and a coach there since the 50s. Under his tutelage Liverpool became a trophy machine. From 74 - 83 Bob won 6 League titles, 3 European Cups, 3 League Cups, 1 Uefa Cup, 1 European Super Cup and 6 Community Shields. 20 trophies in 9 glory years, 2.22 trophies per year - magnificent! Apart from that League title in 1977 that should have been Tony Book's........ ..grrrrrrrrr!
Continuity was the order of the day with former Blue Joe Fagan rising in the boot room from 1983 - infamously May 1985. He won 1 League, 1 European Cup and 1 League Cup in 3 years. Sadly he's probably better remembered for the European Cup Final that he didn't win........
3 trophies in 3 years giving 1 trophy per year, still remarkable considering the quality of teams.
'king Kenny Dalglish became player manager then manager from 86 - 91. I have also included his return to the Anfield hotseat in 2011. He won 3 Leagues, 2 FA Cups, 1 League Cup and 4 Community Shields. This works out to 1.43 trophies per year, impressive. He quit, partly due to the effect that Hillsborough had on him, attending the victims funerals. Famously 'king Kenny won the League with Blackburn in 95.
With Dalglish indisposed, the reds sent for 3 time European Cup winner Graeme Souness. From 91 - 93 he won 1 FA Cup, 0.33 trophies per year.
Therefore I would describe Liverpool's era of dominance from 63 - 92, 29 years in which they won 44 trophies, a hugely impressive achievement. Again 13 of these are Community Shields, but they all count!
This works out to 1.52 trophies per year which lessens the impact I think of Paisley in particular.
Of course I've used Wiki for research and hope so far I've managed to accurately transcribe the data whilst maintaining your interest!!
Before I go on the describe the reign of you know who! I'll draw your attention to the playing careers of a few individuals, specifically Dalglish, Souness, Mancini and Mr Guardiola , they're a bit good and then some!
To recap united had some titles and their first European Cup with Busby. Liverpool continued to grow from steady success under Shankly to pure dominance under Paisley. After the Euro ban, Liverpool had plenty of decent strikers, won cups but the League crown was about to switch to "rivals" united.
Two things happened from the late 80s to the early 90s, united were floated on the Stock Exchange and the new breakaway Premier League was formed. Both endeavours were designed to monetize football and united in particular, as never before. The architects of the PL were united, Liverpool, arsenal, spurs and Everton. We were included, though I'm sure as an afterthought, the PL was all about those 3 teams in red.
Becoming a PLC and being Sly's pin ups meant that uniteds revenues grew phenomenally in the 90s and they certainly took advantage.
Alex Ferguson started as united manager in 86 and reaped the benefits of having the slickest commercial operation in football for 27 long years! Seem to recall in September 1989 they had a game at little inconsequential City, happy times. A real sliding doors moment, imagine what would have happened if they'd ditched the red nosed tyrant then......???
Anyway the tale of the tape reads 13 League titles, 2 European Cups, 5 FA Cups, 4 League Cups, 1 European Cup Winners Cup, 1 European Super Cup, 10 Community Shields, 1 Club World Cup, 1 Intercontinental title. That's 38 trophies in 27 years or 1.41 trophies per year. Utterly daunting for all who followed him to stretford.
There are a number of points to make about AFs reign, they didn't have sustained title challengers, arsenal a few times, then Chelsea under mourinho, most years it was by how many points! As I've said united had a significant financial advantage and could break the transfer record repeatedly to poach players, strengthening themselves and weakening their rivals.
A good thing apparently so should never be queried. Ever?!
It's worth comparing the above to the combined record Shankly - Souness which I make as 13 Leagues, 4 European Cups, 5 FA Cups, 2 Uefa Cups, 1 European Super Cup and 5 League Cups.
Very similar records but significantly different in term of European trophies IE AF has 2 EC, 1 ECWC and 1 SC against 4 EC, 2 Uefa and 1 SC.
I would argue that for the resources at his disposal, he underachieved in Europe, not helped by the 5 year ban after Heysel. However despite his many and considerable human failings, he was a phenomenal football coach and his record at Aberdeen in breaking up the Glasgow duopoly sand winning European trophies is incredible and worthy of respect.
Now we come to the bit we've all been waiting for, Manchester's finest, City!
We'd won the FA Cup in 1904, won the League for the first time in 37 along with another FA Cup in 34.
In 56 we won the Trautman FA Cup, after losing in the final to Newcastle the previous year.
In 65 Joe Mercer came in the the Maine Road hotseat with coach Malcolm Allison. Mercer had been a League winner as a player and as a manager, previously with Villa. In 66 they won the 2nd Division and in 68 won the League ahead of Busbys prospective European Champions. In 69 the FA Cup was won, in 70 the European Cup Winners Cup and League Cup were added to the trophy cabinet.
The partnership didn't last, there were power struggles in the boardroom and a certain Cuban heeled dictator was waiting in the wings..........
That first golden period of City's history produced 1 League, 1 FA Cup, 1 European Cup Winners Cup, 1 League Cup, 1 Community Shield and 1 Second Division title so 6 trophies in years, a great achievement.
It's worth highlighting that City were the first team to win a European and domestic cup double. The opposition was formidable too with united, Liverpool but also Leeds, arsenal, Chelsea and Everton in the mix.
AS I was only born in late 70, I've had to take the word of my brother on trust! He felt that through the 70s until 81, were were always there or thereabouts. What he means is we were in cup finals, challenged for the title and had a team full of internationals.
Untill the takeover, our second most successful manager was also our most decorated captain, Tony Book.
He moved into coaching at City and with the managerial casualties mounting, became our perennial caretaker manager. However when he was manager in his own right, he won his only trophy as a coach. Denis Tueart and that overhead kick!! Happy happy days. Book was manager from 74 -79 so 1 trophy in 5 years. Considering it was as swales' reign of terror was starting, that Tony did ever so well.
As we all know football was ruined in 2008 when Sheikh Mansour brought Manchester City Football Club. The chunky thighed Hughes was shown the door and a new scarf wearing era under the volcanic smoldering and quite mad Signor Roberto Mancini.
To Roberto's credit he immediately picked up on the disrespect and mockery of the stretford set. He wanted to tear down that ticking banner, and shove it....
We had spent under Hughes and he brought us both Kompany and Zabletta, pre takeover. It accelerated under Mancini, with Aguero and that nice David Silva.
For me he showed that we could compete with united and so we did. An FA Cup semi final, Yaya was yes yes! The stokies were defeated in the final in 2011. I don't mind telling you I had something in my eye that afternoon! 2012 and a straight shoot out between us and the rags. QPR at home for the title, we can't fck this up...........Dzeko, Balotelli and Sergio stopped me having a coronary! Even now it's utterly unreal. And the fact that united had thought they'd won it at Sunderland!!!!!!!!! We got to another FA Cup final before colliding with the immovable object that was wigan!!!!!!! Mancini had madetoo many enemies and was unceremoniously dumped. His count was 1 League title, 1 FA Cup and 1 Community Shield, 3 trophies in 4 years or 0.75 trophies per year. I was ecstatic!
Manuel Pellegrini was next and is unfairly thought of as a placeholder. In his first season he was stellar, 1 League title and 1 League Cup, not good enough to be manager of the year lol! The next season wasn't great but in 16 the League Cup was won. So between 2013-16 MP won 3 trophies. The main act was about to arrive.
Pep Guardiola came to the Etihad, " bringing no guarantee of success" in 2016. He set about recruiting younger players and modified the way City played, with quick transitions and ball retention. The next season he was ready to challenge for the title. He achieved the domestic treble, 100 points, a domestic and European treble as champions and literally changed the way football could be played. The bald cardigan wearing Catalan has continued to evolve City's play and influenced football at all levels. His count reads 5 League titles, 1 European Cup, 2 FA Cups, 4 League Cups, 1 European Super Cup, 1 Club World Cup and 2 Community Shields. That is 16 trophies in 7 years or 2.28 trophies per year. Just staggering! And he's not finished yet!
Our last 3 managers have won 22 trophies in 12 years or 1.83 trophies per year. These truly are glory glory days.
Here I could add the trophies united have won since 2013, but I think a more informative comparison is with the current iteration of Liverpool.
Klopp has been there 8 years and has won 1 League, 1 European Cup, 1 European Super Cup, 1 FA Cup, 1 League Cup, 1 Club World Cup and 1 Community Shield. So from 2015 to now he's won 7 trophies or 0.87 trophies per year. Whatever you think of him, that is very impressive. However there is a false narrative that Klopp is on a par with Pep. Both good managers with great resources but Pep has 16 trophies in 7 years to Klopp's 7 in 8.
I can't say for certain, but I do think there were slightly more challengers to Liverpool, Forrest, Villa, Ipswich, Arsenal.
From the takeover, I think the PL has become more competitive, certainly more so than uniteds 13 titles in 20 years. Unfortunately in order to compete, you need money, remember when Villa were splashing the cash, or Everton?
Also it is astonishing that that in their relative periods of dominance, united and Liverpool have never gone head to head.
We have done with both united and Liverpool a number of times. I would also say that the races we had with Liverpool have actually brought out the best in us. SThere are a lot of big beasts around including Chelsea, arsenal spurs who have large resources too. As united consistently prove having money and spending it wisely are 2 very different things!
Writing this, I have been fascinated by the very human stories of these managers. People like Busby, Shankly, Paisley, Fagan, Mercer comported themselves with the utmost integrity, and had utter respect for their rivals. I think Dalglish, Souness, Ron Atkinson, Manuel and Pep are also cut from this cloth.
Roberto was a divisive figure and would probably admit he can be a right petulant so and so.
However Ferguson and Klopp, along with Arteta go out of their way to rile people and worse, to belittle them. Postaglu comes across as a decent guy without resorting to being a bully, ditto Emerai.
Pep for all he's achieved wherever he's been has been thoroughly humble and grounded. It doesn't take much!
Finally I will also say that there is no harm in respecting other manager's records, it doesn't make you any less of a Blue for appreciating Shankly, Stein or .... Ferguson!
I hope this analysis also shows just how far we've come as a club. Never forget!
cmcm0808
Well-Known Member
This is likely to be a long rambling post, so buckle up!
I've always felt teams tend to have eras of dominance but had never quantified this.
What I've done is take an arbitrary point from the 1950s and compare ourselves, livarpool and united. It's a problematic approach so where possible I'll try to analyse management eras. It's a simplified approach which doesn't have any weighting for finance or other factors. Nevertheless it will I hope provide some context for success and failure.
In the 50s, we won the '56 FA Cup, thanks to Bert! In many ways I think he was our greatest hero.
Fromthe late 40s to 50s, Matt Busby won the FA Cup and 3 Leagues.
Liverpool by comparison won nothing significant in this time, they had won titles in the 00s, 20s and one in the 40s.
Between 1945 - 68 Busby's teams won 5 League titles, 2 FA Cups, 1 European Cup and 5 Community Shields. So in 24 years Busby won 13 trophies, working out to 0.54 trophies per year, if there is such a thing! To me it illustrates that he was a great manager, he certainly built uniteds legend, which has become more embellished with the years.
Here I'll briefly divert to highlight a couple of points. Community Shields, does anyone care?!? Well yes, all managers, Pep included, count Community Shields, European Super Cups and Club World Championships, so I'm going to count them too, even if you suspect its stats padding.
I'll also point out that Matt Busby only won one honour as a player, the '34 FA Cup, with......... Manchester City!
So I would argue that uniteds first period of dominance was under Busby, with the football they played, star players as well as the tragedy of Munich and the redemption 10 years later.
Next up to those peculiar ones on the Mersey and to Bill Shankly. In a curious quirk of fate Busby, Shankly and Celtic's Jock Stein were all born within about 20 miles of each other from similar backgrounds and became generational managers.
Shankly was at Anfield from 59 - 73, 15 seasons. He won 1 Second Division title, 3 Leagues, 2 FA Cups, 1 Uefa Cup and 3 Community Shields, 10 trophies in 15 years at 0.66 trophies per year. Again a very impressive achievement and I believe coinciding with the investment by the Moores family with their Littlewoods pools fortune. Sure they also invested in Everton too? This was the start of the Anfield dynasty and reached it's peak with the reds next coach.
Bob Paisley had been a player at Liverpool and a coach there since the 50s. Under his tutelage Liverpool became a trophy machine. From 74 - 83 Bob won 6 League titles, 3 European Cups, 3 League Cups, 1 Uefa Cup, 1 European Super Cup and 6 Community Shields. 20 trophies in 9 glory years, 2.22 trophies per year - magnificent! Apart from that League title in 1977 that should have been Tony Book's........ ..grrrrrrrrr!
Continuity was the order of the day with former Blue Joe Fagan rising in the boot room from 1983 - infamously May 1985. He won 1 League, 1 European Cup and 1 League Cup in 3 years. Sadly he's probably better remembered for the European Cup Final that he didn't win........
3 trophies in 3 years giving 1 trophy per year, still remarkable considering the quality of teams.
'king Kenny Dalglish became player manager then manager from 86 - 91. I have also included his return to the Anfield hotseat in 2011. He won 3 Leagues, 2 FA Cups, 1 League Cup and 4 Community Shields. This works out to 1.43 trophies per year, impressive. He quit, partly due to the effect that Hillsborough had on him, attending the victims funerals. Famously 'king Kenny won the League with Blackburn in 95.
With Dalglish indisposed, the reds sent for 3 time European Cup winner Graeme Souness. From 91 - 93 he won 1 FA Cup, 0.33 trophies per year.
Therefore I would describe Liverpool's era of dominance from 63 - 92, 29 years in which they won 44 trophies, a hugely impressive achievement. Again 13 of these are Community Shields, but they all count!
This works out to 1.52 trophies per year which lessens the impact I think of Paisley in particular.
Of course I've used Wiki for research and hope so far I've managed to accurately transcribe the data whilst maintaining your interest!!
Before I go on the describe the reign of you know who! I'll draw your attention to the playing careers of a few individuals, specifically Dalglish, Souness, Mancini and Mr Guardiola , they're a bit good and then some!
To recap united had some titles and their first European Cup with Busby. Liverpool continued to grow from steady success under Shankly to pure dominance under Paisley. After the Euro ban, Liverpool had plenty of decent strikers, won cups but the League crown was about to switch to "rivals" united.
Two things happened from the late 80s to the early 90s, united were floated on the Stock Exchange and the new breakaway Premier League was formed. Both endeavours were designed to monetize football and united in particular, as never before. The architects of the PL were united, Liverpool, arsenal, spurs and Everton. We were included, though I'm sure as an afterthought, the PL was all about those 3 teams in red.
Becoming a PLC and being Sly's pin ups meant that uniteds revenues grew phenomenally in the 90s and they certainly took advantage.
Alex Ferguson started as united manager in 86 and reaped the benefits of having the slickest commercial operation in football for 27 long years! Seem to recall in September 1989 they had a game at little inconsequential City, happy times. A real sliding doors moment, imagine what would have happened if they'd ditched the red nosed tyrant then......???
Anyway the tale of the tape reads 13 League titles, 2 European Cups, 5 FA Cups, 4 League Cups, 1 European Cup Winners Cup, 1 European Super Cup, 10 Community Shields, 1 Club World Cup, 1 Intercontinental title. That's 38 trophies in 27 years or 1.41 trophies per year. Utterly daunting for all who followed him to stretford.
There are a number of points to make about AFs reign, they didn't have sustained title challengers, arsenal a few times, then Chelsea under mourinho, most years it was by how many points! As I've said united had a significant financial advantage and could break the transfer record repeatedly to poach players, strengthening themselves and weakening their rivals.
A good thing apparently so should never be queried. Ever?!
It's worth comparing the above to the combined record Shankly - Souness which I make as 13 Leagues, 4 European Cups, 5 FA Cups, 2 Uefa Cups, 1 European Super Cup and 5 League Cups.
Very similar records but significantly different in term of European trophies IE AF has 2 EC, 1 ECWC and 1 SC against 4 EC, 2 Uefa and 1 SC.
I would argue that for the resources at his disposal, he underachieved in Europe, not helped by the 5 year ban after Heysel. However despite his many and considerable human failings, he was a phenomenal football coach and his record at Aberdeen in breaking up the Glasgow duopoly sand winning European trophies is incredible and worthy of respect.
Now we come to the bit we've all been waiting for, Manchester's finest, City!
We'd won the FA Cup in 1904, won the League for the first time in 37 along with another FA Cup in 34.
In 56 we won the Trautman FA Cup, after losing in the final to Newcastle the previous year.
In 65 Joe Mercer came in the the Maine Road hotseat with coach Malcolm Allison. Mercer had been a League winner as a player and as a manager, previously with Villa. In 66 they won the 2nd Division and in 68 won the League ahead of Busbys prospective European Champions. In 69 the FA Cup was won, in 70 the European Cup Winners Cup and League Cup were added to the trophy cabinet.
The partnership didn't last, there were power struggles in the boardroom and a certain Cuban heeled dictator was waiting in the wings..........
That first golden period of City's history produced 1 League, 1 FA Cup, 1 European Cup Winners Cup, 1 League Cup, 1 Community Shield and 1 Second Division title so 6 trophies in years, a great achievement.
It's worth highlighting that City were the first team to win a European and domestic cup double. The opposition was formidable too with united, Liverpool but also Leeds, arsenal, Chelsea and Everton in the mix.
AS I was only born in late 70, I've had to take the word of my brother on trust! He felt that through the 70s until 81, were were always there or thereabouts. What he means is we were in cup finals, challenged for the title and had a team full of internationals.
Untill the takeover, our second most successful manager was also our most decorated captain, Tony Book.
He moved into coaching at City and with the managerial casualties mounting, became our perennial caretaker manager. However when he was manager in his own right, he won his only trophy as a coach. Denis Tueart and that overhead kick!! Happy happy days. Book was manager from 74 -79 so 1 trophy in 5 years. Considering it was as swales' reign of terror was starting, that Tony did ever so well.
As we all know football was ruined in 2008 when Sheikh Mansour brought Manchester City Football Club. The chunky thighed Hughes was shown the door and a new scarf wearing era under the volcanic smoldering and quite mad Signor Roberto Mancini.
To Roberto's credit he immediately picked up on the disrespect and mockery of the stretford set. He wanted to tear down that ticking banner, and shove it....
We had spent under Hughes and he brought us both Kompany and Zabletta, pre takeover. It accelerated under Mancini, with Aguero and that nice David Silva.
For me he showed that we could compete with united and so we did. An FA Cup semi final, Yaya was yes yes! The stokies were defeated in the final in 2011. I don't mind telling you I had something in my eye that afternoon! 2012 and a straight shoot out between us and the rags. QPR at home for the title, we can't fck this up...........Dzeko, Balotelli and Sergio stopped me having a coronary! Even now it's utterly unreal. And the fact that united had thought they'd won it at Sunderland!!!!!!!!! We got to another FA Cup final before colliding with the immovable object that was wigan!!!!!!! Mancini had madetoo many enemies and was unceremoniously dumped. His count was 1 League title, 1 FA Cup and 1 Community Shield, 3 trophies in 4 years or 0.75 trophies per year. I was ecstatic!
Manuel Pellegrini was next and is unfairly thought of as a placeholder. In his first season he was stellar, 1 League title and 1 League Cup, not good enough to be manager of the year lol! The next season wasn't great but in 16 the League Cup was won. So between 2013-16 MP won 3 trophies. The main act was about to arrive.
Pep Guardiola came to the Etihad, " bringing no guarantee of success" in 2016. He set about recruiting younger players and modified the way City played, with quick transitions and ball retention. The next season he was ready to challenge for the title. He achieved the domestic treble, 100 points, a domestic and European treble as champions and literally changed the way football could be played. The bald cardigan wearing Catalan has continued to evolve City's play and influenced football at all levels. His count reads 5 League titles, 1 European Cup, 2 FA Cups, 4 League Cups, 1 European Super Cup, 1 Club World Cup and 2 Community Shields. That is 16 trophies in 7 years or 2.28 trophies per year. Just staggering! And he's not finished yet!
Our last 3 managers have won 22 trophies in 12 years or 1.83 trophies per year. These truly are glory glory days.
Here I could add the trophies united have won since 2013, but I think a more informative comparison is with the current iteration of Liverpool.
Klopp has been there 8 years and has won 1 League, 1 European Cup, 1 European Super Cup, 1 FA Cup, 1 League Cup, 1 Club World Cup and 1 Community Shield. So from 2015 to now he's won 7 trophies or 0.87 trophies per year. Whatever you think of him, that is very impressive. However there is a false narrative that Klopp is on a par with Pep. Both good managers with great resources but Pep has 16 trophies in 7 years to Klopp's 7 in 8.
I can't say for certain, but I do think there were slightly more challengers to Liverpool, Forrest, Villa, Ipswich, Arsenal.
From the takeover, I think the PL has become more competitive, certainly more so than uniteds 13 titles in 20 years. Unfortunately in order to compete, you need money, remember when Villa were splashing the cash, or Everton?
Also it is astonishing that that in their relative periods of dominance, united and Liverpool have never gone head to head.
We have done with both united and Liverpool a number of times. I would also say that the races we had with Liverpool have actually brought out the best in us. SThere are a lot of big beasts around including Chelsea, arsenal spurs who have large resources too. As united consistently prove having money and spending it wisely are 2 very different things!
Writing this, I have been fascinated by the very human stories of these managers. People like Busby, Shankly, Paisley, Fagan, Mercer comported themselves with the utmost integrity, and had utter respect for their rivals. I think Dalglish, Souness, Ron Atkinson, Manuel and Pep are also cut from this cloth.
Roberto was a divisive figure and would probably admit he can be a right petulant so and so.
However Ferguson and Klopp, along with Arteta go out of their way to rile people and worse, to belittle them. Postaglu comes across as a decent guy without resorting to being a bully, ditto Emerai.
Pep for all he's achieved wherever he's been has been thoroughly humble and grounded. It doesn't take much!
Finally I will also say that there is no harm in respecting other manager's records, it doesn't make you any less of a Blue for appreciating Shankly, Stein or .... Ferguson!
I hope this analysis also shows just how far we've come as a club. Never forget!
Great read, well done. When you see the stats regarding United' and Liverpool's dominance it's easy see why they have so many armchair supporters. If City continue their dominance they'll be a generation of armchair City supporters too.
Aba452
Well-Known Member
I think one of the purposes of writing all, apart from some free time over Christmas (! ) is to show that great managers are great, no matter who they manage.Great read, well done. When you see the stats regarding United' and Liverpool's dominance it's easy see why they have so many armchair supporters. If City continue their dominance they'll be a generation of armchair City supporters too.
Another thing is that both prolonged periods of dominance by the red arse cheeks, relied on considerable good fortune. The scousers on the Moores pools money, the rags on the Stock market, growing commercialisation of football etc.
TV exposure helped incredibly too. The European games were on terrestrial TV so were guaranteed a huge audience. There was less exposure of League football though.
Fast forward to now, the PL and CL are behind a paywall for British viewers. Interestingly, considering how rapacious and grasping American owners have been, some US coverage is brilliant, the 2 Robbie's with Rebecca, for example. This will continue to grow the fanbase, more tourists and day trippers. Such is the price of success.