Greater Manchester police force are much more active in safety and segregation at football matches than the Merseyside police force.
As a non-City fan this might be hard to get your head around, but, try and stick it out, haha...Hi gents, long time lurker, first time poster. There’s some great stuff on here, but this is the thread that caught my eye insofar as it’s concentrated on purely matchgoing issues. I’m a thirty year STH at Anfield and like most regular match goers, have seen any number of issues that go across most football grounds. Some of the things I’ve seen here though have surprised me slightly. For example, I never realised that there isn’t a ‘home end’ in there as such. Both my visits there were under serious intoxication, one of them a gig, so I’d not noticed. My question is whilst there is obviously a clear demand for the segregation, why hasn’t it been implemented? To be clear, this isn’t a dig, it’s a genuine question. Maine Road had the Kippax which granted wasn’t an end as such, rather a full side, but still did the job as well as any other. Seems strange that the owners have seemingly completely abandoned any kind of territorial placings ahead of huge support from the match goers. Of course, if I’m wrong or have misunderstood, happy to be corrected.
As a non-City fan this might be hard to get your head around, but, try and stick it out, haha...
When we lost the Kippax in 1994, City changed for good. I have an uncle who stopped going after the old Kippax was knocked down, and he won’t have been the only one. We had the North Stand at Maine Road but it wasn’t anything like the Kippax. I reckon, because we had to reduce our capacity while the new Kippax was being built, we lost loads of old singers back then. We had no choice. For big games there’d be 25,000 in the Kippax. Whereas the North Stand, which was already occupied with long standing fans, only held about 6,000; and the new Kippax was a building site. So where did all those fans used to the old Kippax end up? I’d say, mostly, lost from our support!
Then when we moved to the CoMS, it wasn’t made clear that what was the North Stand at Maine Road was going to be South Stand Level 1 at the CoMS and it wasn’t made clear that South Stand Level 1 at the CoMS was much smaller than the North Stand at Maine Road. So our singers ended up all over the place, spread over CoMS’s North Stand, South Stand Level 1 and South Stand Level 2, all split-up, divided and we couldn’t find a way of getting them back together because South Stand Level 1 is so small we couldn’t have fitted them all in even if we wanted to.
Also some non-singers from the Maine Road Platt Lane ended up in CoMS SSL1 because they thought that was going to be how it transferred over.
Basically, we had no proper vocal section when we first moved to the CoMS.
After a few years we naturally grew a really good area in 108-111 of East Stand Level 1. That’s the best area for atmosphere we’ve had at the CoMS. But then we split them up too when we reduced the size of the away section in SSL1 and many moved. 108-111 hasn’t been the same since and we’ve lost a lot of the atmosphere that we used to create because when 108-111 used to sing it would spread down ESL1.
Also SSL1 is probably in the very worst place in the ground to get the rest of the ground singing. It’s trapped in an area by away fans to one side, the almost silent Colin Bell Stand to the other side and, because L1 is very small anyway, it’s trapped under the tier split of L2.
Reading that as a non-City fan would probably seem foreign but those are the problems we’ve faced.
It shows when all of our good atmospheres aren’t lead by what is supposed to be the vocal section. The rest of the ground takes care of itself for the big games. And when it’s not a big game, what is supposed to be the vocal section struggles to make more noise than the away section that is probably bigger.
I’ve had a look down the leagues and dozens of clubs have bigger vocal sections that the approx.3,000 vocal area in SSL1 for City fans in the 55,000 Etihad. Here’s just three examples, of many: Tranmere’s Kop holds around 6,000 in a 16,000 stadium; Walsall’s Tile Choice Stand holds around 4,500 in an 11,000 stadium; Stockport’s Cheadle End holds around 5,000 in an 11,000 stadium...
Never has a football club been crying out for a proper home end more than City are currently. I’d rather go back to what we had with the old Kippax and have it along the side of the pitch. Sod this behind the goal bollocks, I want to go back to old City culture... but even if they can give us the North Stand it’ll be better than what we’ve got now.
The club would never give us one of the side stands because it would ruin their corporate mission. A huge big blue wall in the north stand seems to be the best option. Many are worried the family stand would be next to the away fans. Why not put the away fans in the bottom tier of the south stand which has the same capacity as the current away end. It would mean the away fans would struggle due to acoustics. Put the family stand above the away fans. The only problems is how do you create an entrance to the top two tiers. Possibly but entrances either side of the away fans which go sideways into the top tiers. When I did a safe standing survey more fans said they would use a safe standing section than currently said they stand. There is definitely a need for a home end.As a non-City fan this might be hard to get your head around, but, try and stick it out, haha...
When we lost the Kippax in 1994, City changed for good. I have an uncle who stopped going after the old Kippax was knocked down, and he won’t have been the only one. We had the North Stand at Maine Road but it wasn’t anything like the Kippax. I reckon, because we had to reduce our capacity while the new Kippax was being built, we lost loads of old singers back then. We had no choice. For big games there’d be 25,000 in the Kippax. Whereas the North Stand, which was already occupied with long standing fans, only held about 6,000; and the new Kippax was a building site. So where did all those fans used to the old Kippax end up? I’d say, mostly, lost from our support!
Then when we moved to the CoMS, it wasn’t made clear that what was the North Stand at Maine Road was going to be South Stand Level 1 at the CoMS and it wasn’t made clear that South Stand Level 1 at the CoMS was much smaller than the North Stand at Maine Road. So our singers ended up all over the place, spread over CoMS’s North Stand, South Stand Level 1 and South Stand Level 2, all split-up, divided and we couldn’t find a way of getting them back together because South Stand Level 1 is so small we couldn’t have fitted them all in even if we wanted to.
Also some non-singers from the Maine Road Platt Lane ended up in CoMS SSL1 because they thought that was going to be how it transferred over.
Basically, we had no proper vocal section when we first moved to the CoMS.
After a few years we naturally grew a really good area in 108-111 of East Stand Level 1. That’s the best area for atmosphere we’ve had at the CoMS. But then we split them up too when we reduced the size of the away section in SSL1 and many moved. 108-111 hasn’t been the same since and we’ve lost a lot of the atmosphere that we used to create because when 108-111 used to sing it would spread down ESL1.
Also SSL1 is probably in the very worst place in the ground to get the rest of the ground singing. It’s trapped in an area by away fans to one side, the almost silent Colin Bell Stand to the other side and, because L1 is very small anyway, it’s trapped under the tier split of L2.
Reading that as a non-City fan would probably seem foreign but those are the problems we’ve faced.
It shows when all of our good atmospheres aren’t lead by what is supposed to be the vocal section. The rest of the ground takes care of itself for the big games. And when it’s not a big game, what is supposed to be the vocal section struggles to make more noise than the away section that is probably bigger.
I’ve had a look down the leagues and dozens of clubs have bigger vocal sections that the approx.3,000 vocal area in SSL1 for City fans in the 55,000 Etihad. Here’s just three examples, of many: Tranmere’s Kop holds around 6,000 in a 16,000 stadium; Walsall’s Tile Choice Stand holds around 4,500 in an 11,000 stadium; Stockport’s Cheadle End holds around 5,000 in an 11,000 stadium...
Never has a football club been crying out for a proper home end more than City are currently. I’d rather go back to what we had with the old Kippax and have it along the side of the pitch. Sod this behind the goal bollocks, I want to go back to old City culture... but even if they can give us the North Stand it’ll be better than what we’ve got now.
Another one I forgot to add as well, is, a lot of vocal fans from what is supposed to be the vocal area, moved up into South Stand Level 3 when that was opened because the tickets were cheap (£299 for a seasoncard), but not into one concise area, just all spread out randomly.Thanks for that, mate, brilliant post. That’s what makes this all the more baffling, there’s clearly a large number of fans trying to make this happen but the club don’t seem interested. You’d think that they’d want a massive strong home fan presence with them trying to attract the tourists & daytrippers (we despise them too) to show them what Man City as a club and ground are all about. It’s obviously not affected you on the pitch, but it was definitely an issue with fans I read a lot when I lurked. There was a similar issue with a singing section if I recall rightly?
That’s why this thread caught my eye, it’s not about tribalism, it’s just matchgoing shit. Real problems for real people.
Another one I forgot to add as well, is, a lot of vocal fans from what is supposed to be the vocal area, moved up into South Stand Level 3 when that was opened because the tickets were cheap (£299 for a seasoncard), but not into one concise area, just all spread out randomly.
Thanks for that, mate, brilliant post. That’s what makes this all the more baffling, there’s clearly a large number of fans trying to make this happen but the club don’t seem interested. You’d think that they’d want a massive strong home fan presence with them trying to attract the tourists & daytrippers (we despise them too) to show them what Man City as a club and ground are all about. It’s obviously not affected you on the pitch, but it was definitely an issue with fans I read a lot when I lurked. There was a similar issue with a singing section if I recall rightly?
That’s why this thread caught my eye, it’s not about tribalism, it’s just matchgoing shit. Real problems for real people.
Now is the perfect time to get a safe standing section in every stadium in the top two tiers. It’s likely there will be no fans present till 2021 which gives clubs ages to implement it. Financially it may be a problem for some clubs but now is the best time for it to happen. We’ve been laughed at for a long time for poor atmospheres by air chair fans, it would be great if city became the leading light when it comes to trying to improve the atmosphere. There is a huge cultural problem in England where the average age of a fan has risen to 40s and 50s. In Germany the average age is mid twenties mainly due to the fact the average ticket price in Germany is £23 whereas its £54 here. They also allow there fans to do what they want pretty much. We’re at a point where it could go two ways. One is that in 20 years we will be facing empty stadiums across the country and lower league teams will be replaced by premier league B teams. The other way is that a cap is put on salaries, transfer prices and tickets which will stop inflation. We have become obsessed with becoming the best club competition in the world so we spend more than everyone else. Barca only buy two special players a season.Can’t you ask the club to organise the numbers & seats accordingly? That said, I’m sure that’s been done already. What’s the thinking of the fans as to why the club won’t implement a recognised home end/side?
EDIT: just saw the comments above about rail seating. It’s a brave and bold move to keep your powder dry on a move that may not happen en masse for a while and you have long-standing fans crying out for their own proper section.
All that aside though, I think it’s like PC said - the section isn’t big enough and it’s in one of the worst areas of the ground to get an atmosphere going. I start a lot of songs off - mainly because I’m a loud fucker - but sometimes you feel like you’re putting in ten times too much effort for not much reward. Then I’ll go to an away game and not need to put in half as much effort to get a song to spread across the whole away end. I know there have been issues at Liverpool with the atmosphere too but what you have in your favour is a large, single tier end in the Kop which makes it easier for songs to spread. A single tier end helps hugely IMO.
Now is the perfect time to get a safe standing section in every stadium in the top two tiers. It’s likely there will be no fans present till 2021 which gives clubs ages to implement it. Financially it may be a problem for some clubs but now is the best time for it to happen. We’ve been laughed at for a long time for poor atmospheres by air chair fans, it would be great if city became the leading light when it comes to trying to improve the atmosphere. There is a huge cultural problem in England where the average age of a fan has risen to 40s and 50s. In Germany the average age is mid twenties mainly due to the fact the average ticket price in Germany is £23 whereas its £54 here. They also allow there fans to do what they want pretty much. We’re at a point where it could go two ways. One is that in 20 years we will be facing empty stadiums across the country and lower league teams will be replaced by premier league B teams. The other way is that a cap is put on salaries, transfer prices and tickets which will stop inflation. We have become obsessed with becoming the best club competition in the world so we spend more than everyone else. Barca only buy two special players a season.
TBF Spirt of Shankley have said they would back safe standing and one of the Hillsborough groups have said the same but one hasn’t. There is very little on the internet which specified what the families want. I presume they are split. Surely they realise that people have stood no matter the regulations which is more unsafe than terraces. If the incident had happened in an all seater stadium the disaster would’ve been much worse. Safe standing is a much better option and it also allows clubs to increase capacity without having to build because if the space between rows are the correct size then you can have a 1 seat to two standing ratio. Rail seating is a million years away from the terraces in the 80s. Spurs safe standing wouldn’t actually be suitable because there isn’t a big enough gap between rows so basically if they do allow safe standing officially they may only allow 5 fans on a 10 seat row.I’ve said above that I’d love rail seating/safe standing at our place, but we’ll be the last to do it if it happens. Its a shame because, done properly, it would totally reinvigorate grounds around the league and give the PL brand maximum exposure. Win win for everybody.
TBF Spirt of Shankley have said they would back safe standing and one of the Hillsborough groups have said the same but one hasn’t. There is very little on the internet which specified what the families want. I presume they are split. Surely they realise that people have stood no matter the regulations which is more unsafe than terraces. If the incident had happened in an all seater stadium the disaster would’ve been much worse. Safe standing is a much better option and it also allows clubs to increase capacity without having to build because if the space between rows are the correct size then you can have a 1 seat to two standing ratio. Rail seating is a million years away from the terraces in the 80s. Spurs safe standing wouldn’t actually be suitable because there isn’t a big enough gap between rows so basically if they do allow safe standing officially they may only allow 5 fans on a 10 seat row.
perfect time for safestand, I spoke to the club only a month before lockdown about it because of the boost it would give to the atmosphere.
it is frustrating as many at the club want it in place. But it is still up in the air about the north stand expansion and because the way the terracing is in 115 / 116 / 117 where they would like the safetsand trial, it means digging up a lot of the concrete base, its not a straight forward job.
but who knows now with lockdown, could be a good time to do it, they might change their mind
Very good post, fantastic researching and observations, however I would rather see us have our own end . I'm sure priced correctly and particularly with safe standing the numbers we may have lost will return.As a non-City fan this might be hard to get your head around, but, try and stick it out, haha...
When we lost the Kippax in 1994, City changed for good. I have an uncle who stopped going after the old Kippax was knocked down, and he won’t have been the only one. We had the North Stand at Maine Road but it wasn’t anything like the Kippax. I reckon, because we had to reduce our capacity while the new Kippax was being built, we lost loads of old singers back then. We had no choice. For big games there’d be 25,000 in the Kippax. Whereas the North Stand, which was already occupied with long standing fans, only held about 6,000; and the new Kippax was a building site. So where did all those fans used to the old Kippax end up? I’d say, mostly, lost from our support!
Then when we moved to the CoMS, it wasn’t made clear that what was the North Stand at Maine Road was going to be South Stand Level 1 at the CoMS and it wasn’t made clear that South Stand Level 1 at the CoMS was much smaller than the North Stand at Maine Road. So our singers ended up all over the place, spread over CoMS’s North Stand, South Stand Level 1 and South Stand Level 2, all split-up, divided and we couldn’t find a way of getting them back together because South Stand Level 1 is so small we couldn’t have fitted them all in even if we wanted to.
Also some non-singers from the Maine Road Platt Lane ended up in CoMS SSL1 because they thought that was going to be how it transferred over.
Basically, we had no proper vocal section when we first moved to the CoMS.
After a few years we naturally grew a really good area in 108-111 of East Stand Level 1. That’s the best area for atmosphere we’ve had at the CoMS. But then we split them up too when we reduced the size of the away section in SSL1 and many moved. 108-111 hasn’t been the same since and we’ve lost a lot of the atmosphere that we used to create because when 108-111 used to sing it would spread down ESL1.
Also SSL1 is probably in the very worst place in the ground to get the rest of the ground singing. It’s trapped in an area by away fans to one side, the almost silent Colin Bell Stand to the other side and, because L1 is very small anyway, it’s trapped under the tier split of L2.
Reading that as a non-City fan would probably seem foreign but those are the problems we’ve faced.
It shows when all of our good atmospheres aren’t lead by what is supposed to be the vocal section. The rest of the ground takes care of itself for the big games. And when it’s not a big game, what is supposed to be the vocal section struggles to make more noise than the away section that is probably bigger.
I’ve had a look down the leagues and dozens of clubs have bigger vocal sections than the approx.3,000 vocal area in SSL1 for City fans in the 55,000 Etihad. Here’s just three examples, of many: Tranmere’s Kop holds around 6,000 in a 16,000 stadium; Walsall’s Tile Choice Stand holds around 4,500 in an 11,000 stadium; Stockport’s Cheadle End holds around 5,000 in an 11,000 stadium...
Never has a football club been crying out for a proper home end more than City are currently. I’d rather go back to what we had with the old Kippax and have it along the side of the pitch. Sod this behind the goal bollocks, I want to go back to old City culture... but even if they can give us the North Stand it’ll be better than what we’ve got now.
The real kicker at the Etihad is the L2. It divides the ground. We had the old Kippax (everyone else had an end we had a side) and when we moved the ‘noise’ was split because of needing a ‘kids’ end and a place for away support. In hindsight it would have been better to have the whole of L1 East as our ‘Kippax’ side. Not sure how you could change that now but there hasn’t been a better time than now.
Don’t know if I’m reading this right here, but is there a specific kids (U16s?) section at the Etihad? Is that for them alone or is it more a dad and lad section thing? I only ask because a section of youth is guaranteed noise and a great way to keep fan continuity. No chance of that at our place - ours is the only ground in the UK where you can’t enter unless you’re 16 or over or with an accompanying adult. They say it’s for safety, but it’s a load of shit. Just another way to try and squeeze out local kids who won’t buy tat from the shop to get Tarquin from Dorking in so he can buy the 3rd away kit. Modern football, I suppose.The real kicker at the Etihad is the L2. It divides the ground. We had the old Kippax (everyone else had an end we had a side) and when we moved the ‘noise’ was split because of needing a ‘kids’ end and a place for away support. In hindsight it would have been better to have the whole of L1 East as our ‘Kippax’ side. Not sure how you could change that now but there hasn’t been a better time than now.
We have a family stand where you can purchase an adult and child ticket together. Unfortunately many just purchase the two because it’s cheap seats. The family stand is where you will get the most empty seats and because it’s behind the goal it’s very visible for TV baiters. I find it embarrassing.Don’t know if I’m reading this right here, but is there a specific kids (U16s?) section at the Etihad? Is that for them alone or is it more a dad and lad section thing? I only ask because a section of youth is guaranteed noise and a great way to keep fan continuity. No chance of that at our place - ours is the only ground in the UK where you can’t enter unless you’re 16 or over or with an accompanying adult. They say it’s for safety, but it’s a load of shit. Just another way to try and squeeze out local kids who won’t buy tat from the shop to get Tarquin from Dorking in so he can buy the 3rd away kit. Modern football, I suppose.
We have a family stand where you can purchase an adult and child ticket together. Unfortunately many just purchase the two because it’s cheap seats. The family stand is where you will get the most empty seats and because it’s behind the goal it’s very visible for TV baiters. I find it embarrassing.