Brown stepping down - What now? [Merged]

[1.618034]

One-size Fitz Hall?

did he have a brother called albert?

He was all for Free Trade.

 

[Prestwich_Blue]

One-size Fitz Hall?

did he have a brother called albert?

Yes 'cos my brother worked with him! I kid you not!

 

[ElanJo]

First of all, do you have anything to support the assertion that for capitalism to be justified everyone must have money taken off them to pay for state education, welfare etc.? I just don't see it. The force used, that you're promoting, needs to be justified if anything.

Secondly, how can capitalism be based on merit when Government involvement in the market means that capitalism becomes 'capitOlism' - ie. where business decisions become aimed at gaining state granted monopolies and other favours instead of offering the customers the best possible ?

Capitalism is as close to a meritocracy as you're likely going to get because the customer, looking at a free and open market, determines who merits their business. All we need to do is actually gain capitalism and get rid of this capitol-ism or corporatism which is masquerading under the name "Capitalism"

I agree with your last sentence and that's one reason why I think you're wrong. A look at history will show us that the only time in which the poor were gaining wealth was when the economies were less controlled by governments. Their increase was slow (1% per year if I remember correctly) but at least it was heading in the right direction... unlike now, when governments all around the world are increasingly involved in the economy.

Rawls' veil of ignorance and Theory of Justice perhaps? Envision this: You're born into an unequal society but have no control over what position in that society you would hold. Every person has an equal vote in what should be allowed to happen in the society, still not knowing their position. Now imagine what situations that inequity would be allowed. What would they be? What conditions would you allow for that to happen? Remember, you could be a poor old schmuck in this unequal society. In fact, the probability is that is exactly what you'll be. Yet another person is born into wealth without doing anything to earn it. If that was the case, there is no way it would be allowed to happen. Such inequality would not be allowed unless everyone knew they could benefit from that inequality by earning it from the position they found themselves in to start with.

If you're going to argue that what currently passes for capitalism is not actually capitalism then I agree. However, I consider the current system capitalistic. Regardless, I was talking about actual capitalism. For the inequalities to be justified, and to assure they will not be self-perpetuating, thus assuring wealth is earned, there must be provisions which allow that to happen.

The countries with the highest social mobility, and those which have achieved the fastest improvements, are social-democratic in outlook. Those with the lowest, in the developed world, follow the Anglo-Saxon capitalistic model; crony capitalism; casino capitalism; corporatism; capitolism or whatever you want to call it.

Other than to say God put me in the starting point I am in on merit (which would be strange since I am an atheist ;) ) I can only really say "that's the way it goes" I mean I could have been born in 1323 being scared to speak for fear of hanging.... or I could have been born 2150 where I could have had the ability to be immortal, thanks to life extension, and speed around space in a space ship. Instead I was born now.
I agree with the principle, or at least think it useful, much like The Golden Rule, but I'm just not convinced or at least not convinced enough to see it justifying the initiation of force/the state. I haven't looked into the veil of ignorance and the theory of justice but I will do. Tho I'll say that when I was about 15-18 I was quite communistic (without ever coming across the term communism or any political ideology for that matter - I wasn't interested in politics or philosophy at that age) and it sounds like my line of reasoning was based on something similar to the veil of ignorance. I thought "we're all born on this planet and we're all humans so we should all have an equal share of everything". That's not a put down BTW, tho I don't think it will come across as anything but lol, I just found it interesting. I may have misunderstood what you were getting at tho.

Yes, most definitely our system is not capitalism. Ok, so you were talking about actual capitalism, but I still see a problem in that as soon as you have a government involved in the economy you no longer have capitalism because, as I said, it incentivises businesses to fight for government monopolies and favours rather than fighting for legitimate customers, who will buy from those who merit their business in accordance to their wishes. Infact I don't think capitalism is even possible when you have a state. Full stop. (at least not for very long)

As far as social-democratic vs crony-capitalist societies and social mobility are concerned, I could see why the former would be better but that's just comparing two choices. I'd rather live in a society with the former than the latter system. This "mixed system" is just the worst of both worlds. However, I was talking about the gradual eradication of poverty altogether in past (actual - or close to actual) capitalist societies. Capitalism and the eradication of poverty would increase mobility, sure you may see more family businesses but I don't neccessarily see anything wrong with that since anyone could start up a business and we'd see an equilibrium over time.

I apologise if I'm abit rambley, Im really really tired, infact I'm about to collapse :P

 

[Bigga]

I bogged off a bit cos SWP was boring me. I've come back and caught up on some of his claims. I notice, though, how he STILL hasn't answered my question of where he drew he figures on this country being Third World pre-Thatcher (yes, still waiting! Ironic as he's such a financial whizz!).

My second point is his claim for attending a 'top' grammar school. In such places one learns to spell accurately and this well never leave you, except for the very odd typo.

You, pal, have had your fair share of terrible spelling in the last few hours!!But fook it, he won't back over the 'wild' claim of Third World positioning.


BTW, I read somewhere on here that Cameron is looking to go back to manufacturing, like it's some bloody revelation! If you tear out the gut of a nation, as Thatcher did, and claim to have taken the body further, well eventually that body will die or be on life support (which is where we are now as a country relying on the drips of others to sustain it!).

This country's been dying a slow death thanks to Thatcher and we've been trying to mask the problems ever since, regardless of the few that have benefited from the demise.

 

[Cheeses of Nazareth]

I bogged off a bit cos SWP was boring me. I've come back and caught up on some of his claims. I notice, though, how he STILL hasn't answered my question of where he drew he figures on this country being Third World pre-Thatcher (yes, still waiting! Ironic as he's such a financial whizz!).

My second point is his claim for attending a 'top' grammar school. In such places one learns to spell accurately and this well never leave you, except for the very odd typo.

You, pal, have had your fair share of terrible spelling in the last few hours!!But fook it, he won't back over the 'wild' claim of Third World positioning.


BTW, I read somewhere on here that Cameron is looking to go back to manufacturing, like it's some bloody revelation! If you tear out the gut of a nation, as Thatcher did, and claim to have taken the body further, well eventually that body will die or be on life support (which is where we are now as a country relying on the drips of others to sustain it!).

This country's been dying a slow death thanks to Thatcher and we've been trying to mask the problems ever since, regardless of the few that have benefited from the demise.

Well said, Thatcher is the architect of the shit we're in. This country will never become a manufacturing powerhouse ever again. England is dreaming.

 

[Bluemoon115]

The country has been con-dem'd.

Fuck off, I found it funny.

:)

 

[maineman]

I bogged off a bit cos SWP was boring me. I've come back and caught up on some of his claims. I notice, though, how he STILL hasn't answered my question of where he drew he figures on this country being Third World pre-Thatcher (yes, still waiting! Ironic as he's such a financial whizz!).

My second point is his claim for attending a 'top' grammar school. In such places one learns to spell accurately and this well never leave you, except for the very odd typo.

You, pal, have had your fair share of terrible spelling in the last few hours!!But fook it, he won't back over the 'wild' claim of Third World positioning.


BTW, I read somewhere on here that Cameron is looking to go back to manufacturing, like it's some bloody revelation! If you tear out the gut of a nation, as Thatcher did, and claim to have taken the body further, well eventually that body will die or be on life support (which is where we are now as a country relying on the drips of others to sustain it!).

This country's been dying a slow death thanks to Thatcher and we've been trying to mask the problems ever since, regardless of the few that have benefited from the demise.

bravo here here

 

[bluemoonmatt]

I bogged off a bit cos SWP was boring me. I've come back and caught up on some of his claims. I notice, though, how he STILL hasn't answered my question of where he drew he figures on this country being Third World pre-Thatcher (yes, still waiting! Ironic as he's such a financial whizz!).

My second point is his claim for attending a 'top' grammar school. In such places one learns to spell accurately and this well never leave you, except for the very odd typo.

You, pal, have had your fair share of terrible spelling in the last few hours!!But fook it, he won't back over the 'wild' claim of Third World positioning.


BTW, I read somewhere on here that Cameron is looking to go back to manufacturing, like it's some bloody revelation! If you tear out the gut of a nation, as Thatcher did, and claim to have taken the body further, well eventually that body will die or be on life support (which is where we are now as a country relying on the drips of others to sustain it!).

This country's been dying a slow death thanks to Thatcher and we've been trying to mask the problems ever since, regardless of the few that have benefited from the demise.

I read that claim on manufacturing and just burst out laughing at the sheer brass neck of it. The problems we face as a country now is an over reliance on service industries like banking which were brought about by the widespread and wholesale destruction of the countries manufacturing base, particularly in the north. Liverpool, Belfast, Glasgow and the Tyne region had successful shipbuilding industries, Sheffield had steel, Wales and Yorkshire had mining, there was a massive foundry in Leeds, all gone now. I blame Thatcher and her administration, and even if I didn't it's all too much of a coincidence that all of this happened under her governance. They sold nearly everything we had from the railways to BT to balance the books with flagrant disregard as to whether it was theirs to sell, I know Brown sold some gold and I accept it was a fuckup but nothing on the same level as those shysters in the 80's. I was also amused by Bill's claim of higher wages. I presume he meant higher wages for those already on a good whack. After all his party were vehemently opposed to the introduction of a national minimum wage, but I guess the low paid don't matter, they're not yuppies.

 

[SWP's back]

I think I was saying women should have the vote though I can't remember the reason now....

I voted. One of your previous posts pointed out that I should, and I took your advice.

Thanks xx

Oh God, my advice isn't always the best as many posters on this thread would attest. But I am very happy that you voted. :)<br /><br />-- Wed May 12, 2010 10:04 am --<br /><br />

I bogged off a bit cos SWP was boring me. I've come back and caught up on some of his claims. I notice, though, how he STILL hasn't answered my question of where he drew he figures on this country being Third World pre-Thatcher (yes, still waiting! Ironic as he's such a financial whizz!).

My second point is his claim for attending a 'top' grammar school. In such places one learns to spell accurately and this well never leave you, except for the very odd typo.

You, pal, have had your fair share of terrible spelling in the last few hours!!But fook it, he won't back over the 'wild' claim of Third World positioning.


BTW, I read somewhere on here that Cameron is looking to go back to manufacturing, like it's some bloody revelation! If you tear out the gut of a nation, as Thatcher did, and claim to have taken the body further, well eventually that body will die or be on life support (which is where we are now as a country relying on the drips of others to sustain it!).

This country's been dying a slow death thanks to Thatcher and we've been trying to mask the problems ever since, regardless of the few that have benefited from the demise.

Yes, yes. It is ALL Thatcher's fault (as unions were totally blameless in the their power hungry prime, striking at will and holding the country at ransom. Do you remember 3 day weeks and power cuts not to mention rubbish on the streets, the dead lying unburied. A total lack of foreign investment and some of the most in-efficient manufacturing on the planet with shoddy build quality as its mark (British Leyland).

I shall not give your arguments the oxygen it wishes but thanks for the attack on spelling - I do sincerely apologise but I do not do so bad for a dyslexic in my opinion. Atleast I try to use correct spelling and grammar (look at my username FFS!).

Enjoy your day and I shall enjoy our government. If anything, I am happier to be governed by a co-allition as I don't think any one party should hold all the power, especially with a first past the post system which in intrinsically unfair.

I just wish the country would push for full devolution as Labour would never gain power again.

 

[Balti]

I voted. One of your previous posts pointed out that I should, and I took your advice.

Thanks xx

Oh God, my advice isn't always the best as many posters on this thread would attest. But I am very happy that you voted. :)

-- Wed May 12, 2010 10:04 am --

I bogged off a bit cos SWP was boring me. I've come back and caught up on some of his claims. I notice, though, how he STILL hasn't answered my question of where he drew he figures on this country being Third World pre-Thatcher (yes, still waiting! Ironic as he's such a financial whizz!).

My second point is his claim for attending a 'top' grammar school. In such places one learns to spell accurately and this well never leave you, except for the very odd typo.

You, pal, have had your fair share of terrible spelling in the last few hours!!But fook it, he won't back over the 'wild' claim of Third World positioning.


BTW, I read somewhere on here that Cameron is looking to go back to manufacturing, like it's some bloody revelation! If you tear out the gut of a nation, as Thatcher did, and claim to have taken the body further, well eventually that body will die or be on life support (which is where we are now as a country relying on the drips of others to sustain it!).

This country's been dying a slow death thanks to Thatcher and we've been trying to mask the problems ever since, regardless of the few that have benefited from the demise.

Yes, yes. It is ALL Thatcher's fault (as unions were totally blameless in the their power hungry prime, striking at will and holding the country at ransom. Do you remember 3 day weeks and power cuts not to mention rubbish on the streets, the dead lying unburied. A total lack of foreign investment and some of the most in-efficient manufacturing on the planet with shoddy build quality as its mark (British Leyland).

I shall not give your arguments the oxygen it wishes but thanks for the attack on spelling - I do sincerely apologise but I do not do so bad for a dyslexic in my opinion. Atleast I try to use correct spelling and grammar (look at my username FFS!).

Enjoy your day and I shall enjoy our government. If anything, I am happier to be governed by a co-allition as I don't think any one party should hold all the power, especially with a first past the post system which in intrinsically unfair.

I just wish the country would push for full devolution as Labour would never gain power again.

Well said mate. At the very least we should have what every other home nation has.....an assembly or parliament of our own.