Bundesliga review part 2. the new one :)

[supercrystal7]

If we raided the rags like Munich raided Dortmund, it would be a national scandal.

Fine with me. Less money for the Bundesliga as their product falls into the toilet with only one competitive club. I see the PL is getting another 25% rise in TV income, putting even more distance between it and the rest of football.

You mean if you got a player with a release clause and a free agent...

Actually I can see the british press claiming United because of their stupidity if that was the case...

In all of this I seldom saw that somebody mentioned that Dortmund got Reus per release clause from Gladbach.

If Bayern does not have success in Europe nobody is interested in the Bundesliga.

Europe is a completely different issue. Bayern can have success in Europe all it wants, but its league isn't competitive. It's like watching an Olympic sprinter race against Special Olympics kids. You didn't have to take talent from Dortmund. That cannibalizes the talent in your league rather than infusing it with new blood.

You'll farm trophies but our TV deal will continue to explode due to our competitive league. Eventually you'll wind up having PL clubs sitting mid-table making more TV money than you do between your domestic league and CL combined.

The Dortmund-Bayern rivalry was something that got your league worldwide attention, helped you increase revenue and especially overseas viewership. Munich is killing the Bundesliga and their fans are too busy celebrating Pyrrhic victories to realize how damaging it is to your league.

So true and it's unbelievable that Bayern fans don't understand this. I don't put all the blame or even most of it on them, but Dortmunds collapse is a disaster for the Bundesliga, unless Wolfsburg can take their place.

Bayern fans may have disliked the moniker Der Klassiker, but it was good for the game. They had a Bundesliga match being compared to Madrid vs Barcelona: the two biggest clubs in the world.

Not only will TV money, sponsorship and interest go down, but players won't want to play for Bayern.

Even top German talents are going to choose to play in a foreign more competitive league let alone foreign players.

German football needs for Wolfsburg to win the Europa League at the very least.

Aletico vs Real will have lots of attention, because top teams are playing each other. Bayern fans seem to think that as long as they do well in Europe people will continue to care about the Bundesliga. They couldn't be more wrong and worse top players won't want to play for Bayern meaning they will soon stop doing well in Europe.

 

[Scaring Europe to Death]

For me the demise of Dortmund opens a wider narrative.

We keep hearing about the financial obligations of the Bundesliga model so why do so many of the German clubs resemble Newcastle in the way they are structured?

Hamburg are supposedly one of the biggest clubs, yet just like Dortmund they have done nothing, but sell their best players for almost ten years. Now they’re stuck with the ageing Van de Vaart and the return of former favourite, but five years older Olic.

Compare their team with the power and pace of the outfit that slaughtered City in the first leg in 2009 (i know we fought back in the second leg, but let’s not kid ourselves)

It’s the same at Werder Bremen who I saw outplay Barcelona, yet lose rather unluckily in 2005. One minute they’re dominating the Champions League and then suddenly they’re relying on cast-off veterans. Where did all the money go?

Don't get me wrong. I love German football and I'm watching a few games in March. It's just that somewhere along the line there seems to be a huge contradiction.

But there is different reason. In Hamburg it is pure mismanagement. They had money - they even still have a big budget. A lot different managers that bought different players that did not fit with the next manager. And that team somehow has a mentality problem.

Bremen - usually is an underdog that has long played a role that a club from a smaller city without a financial backer seldom does. Very good management and purchases (the manager of Wolfsburg was the manager of Bremen then) and success in Europe added to that. Failure to get to Europe, sale of key players, some bad cheaper transfers got them into trouble and on a downward spirale. But - right now they look better again. They have a good offense right now even if still young - could be that they are on the way up again. Time will tell.

Please indulge my curiosity as they are my favourite German team.

Why do Hamburg have a mentality problem?

 

[Ruhr]

but Dortmunds collapse is a disaster for the Bundesliga, unless Wolfsburg can take their place.

.

And that won´t help, because Wolfsburg is very unpopular among german fans and i can´t see them gaining fans outside the Volkswagen workforce even if they would be Bayern rivals.

 

[Bembeltown]

Was about to write something similar....Wolfsburg can challenge Bayern for the title 5 years in a row, but they will always be a team without any flair/proper support.

There is nothing interesting about them, their history, their fans or the town...

Dortmund-Bayern was a good rivalry simply because both are clubs with a huge support/history ( Schalke-Bayern or Gladbach-Bayern would be a similar caliber)

Wolfsburg sold 200 tickets when they played in Frankfurt on Tuesday night....only a couple of days after they twatted Bayern and while they are second in the league.

The pure thought of them representing Germany in the EL/CL makes me feel like throwing up.

 

[Alex - City Matters]

You mean if you got a player with a release clause and a free agent...

Actually I can see the british press claiming United because of their stupidity if that was the case...

In all of this I seldom saw that somebody mentioned that Dortmund got Reus per release clause from Gladbach.

If Bayern does not have success in Europe nobody is interested in the Bundesliga.

Europe is a completely different issue. Bayern can have success in Europe all it wants, but its league isn't competitive. It's like watching an Olympic sprinter race against Special Olympics kids. You didn't have to take talent from Dortmund. That cannibalizes the talent in your league rather than infusing it with new blood.

You'll farm trophies but our TV deal will continue to explode due to our competitive league. Eventually you'll wind up having PL clubs sitting mid-table making more TV money than you do between your domestic league and CL combined.

The Dortmund-Bayern rivalry was something that got your league worldwide attention, helped you increase revenue and especially overseas viewership. Munich is killing the Bundesliga and their fans are too busy celebrating Pyrrhic victories to realize how damaging it is to your league.

So true and it's unbelievable that Bayern fans don't understand this. I don't put all the blame or even most of it on them, but Dortmunds collapse is a disaster for the Bundesliga, unless Wolfsburg can take their place.

Bayern fans may have disliked the moniker Der Klassiker, but it was good for the game. They had a Bundesliga match being compared to Madrid vs Barcelona: the two biggest clubs in the world.

Not only will TV money, sponsorship and interest go down, but players won't want to play for Bayern.

Even top German talents are going to choose to play in a foreign more competitive league let alone foreign players.

German football needs for Wolfsburg to win the Europa League at the very least.

Aletico vs Real will have lots of attention, because top teams are playing each other. Bayern fans seem to think that as long as they do well in Europe people will continue to care about the Bundesliga. They couldn't be more wrong and worse top players won't want to play for Bayern meaning they will soon stop doing well in Europe.

Although you're correct in saying BVB are important to the wider fan base, obviously there's no doubting that. But from truly getting into the "English Bundesliga scene" so to speak at the back end of last season (It's to do with my articles etc..) I've noticed that although Dortmund do have a large following over here, mainly from the 2013 CL run, there is a large following of teams like 'Gladbach, Fortuna, Schalke (very big) and HSV. There's a core of fans that support the league and teams individually that won't just leave if BVB fail. Obviously it won't help, but I think everyone is overplaying the importance of Dortmund. On an international scale maybe they're key; but in more developed football countries I don't see it as that much of a problem.

Also ever since the Bundesliga "rose again" an anti Bundesliga sentiment has formed in the UK, you can see it with certain posters on here. Once it started challenging the PL in certain ways, let's not kid ourselves the Bundesliga isn't better, certain people just keep peddling the same party line in regards to the league. The best one was Adrian Durham just before the CL final in 2013 claiming it isn't a big league because no one has heard of Fortuna Dusseldor and Greuther Furth. Well, how many Germans had probably heard of teams like Swansea before they got into the Prem.

 

[Scaring Europe to Death]

Europe is a completely different issue. Bayern can have success in Europe all it wants, but its league isn't competitive. It's like watching an Olympic sprinter race against Special Olympics kids. You didn't have to take talent from Dortmund. That cannibalizes the talent in your league rather than infusing it with new blood.

You'll farm trophies but our TV deal will continue to explode due to our competitive league. Eventually you'll wind up having PL clubs sitting mid-table making more TV money than you do between your domestic league and CL combined.

The Dortmund-Bayern rivalry was something that got your league worldwide attention, helped you increase revenue and especially overseas viewership. Munich is killing the Bundesliga and their fans are too busy celebrating Pyrrhic victories to realize how damaging it is to your league.

So true and it's unbelievable that Bayern fans don't understand this. I don't put all the blame or even most of it on them, but Dortmunds collapse is a disaster for the Bundesliga, unless Wolfsburg can take their place.

Bayern fans may have disliked the moniker Der Klassiker, but it was good for the game. They had a Bundesliga match being compared to Madrid vs Barcelona: the two biggest clubs in the world.

Not only will TV money, sponsorship and interest go down, but players won't want to play for Bayern.

Even top German talents are going to choose to play in a foreign more competitive league let alone foreign players.

German football needs for Wolfsburg to win the Europa League at the very least.

Aletico vs Real will have lots of attention, because top teams are playing each other. Bayern fans seem to think that as long as they do well in Europe people will continue to care about the Bundesliga. They couldn't be more wrong and worse top players won't want to play for Bayern meaning they will soon stop doing well in Europe.

Although you're correct in saying BVB are important to the wider fan base, obviously there's no doubting that. But from truly getting into the "English Bundesliga scene" so to speak at the back end of last season (It's to do with my articles etc..) I've noticed that although Dortmund do have a large following over here, mainly from the 2013 CL run, there is a large following of teams like 'Gladbach, Fortuna, Schalke (very big) and HSV. There's a core of fans that support the league and teams individually that won't just leave if BVB fail. Obviously it won't help, but I think everyone is overplaying the importance of Dortmund. On an international scale maybe they're key; but in more developed football countries I don't see it as that much of a problem.

Also ever since the Bundesliga "rose again" an anti Bundesliga sentiment has formed in the UK, you can see it with certain posters on here. Once it started challenging the PL in certain ways, let's not kid ourselves the Bundesliga isn't better, certain people just keep peddling the same party line in regards to the league. The best one was Adrian Durham just before the CL final in 2013 claiming it isn't a big league because no one has heard of Fortuna Dusseldor and Greuther Furth. Well, how many Germans had probably heard of teams like Swansea before they got into the Prem.

With the greatest respect, I think you’re wrong, but possibly not for the obvious reason.

Our interest in the Bundesliga has steadily been growing since the 2006 World Cup. I actually attended Japan 2002 and supported Germany against Ireland, but that's another argument for another day.
Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund have both been vociferous in their criticism of the 1970 ECWC winners. Indeed a certain bavarian tax dodger was particularly vitriolic, but when he comes out of jail he might have a different angle.
Most of the animosity on this forum is aimed at those two clubs rather than the wider spectrum of the Bundesliga which the vast majority of City fans admire.
You mention Fortuna Dusseldorf and ironically I’m going to watch them in a few weeks.Indeed most of us identify with their yoyo struggle as opposed to the plastic success of Wolfsburg and Leverkusen, to which many German football fans ironically associate with Manchester City.
Last season I saw Hamburg lose 5-1 at home to Hoffenheim and 3-0 to Schalke. I witnessed Nuremberg throwing away a 3-0 lead at Hannover, which ultimately decided their fate, but was impressed by Augsburg at Dortmund (2-2) and Leverkusen (1-2)
I was in the Monchengladbach end on the opening day of the season at Bayern Munich. I enjoyed Hertha Berlin hanging on desperately to beat Werder Bremen 3-2 and also attended their 2-1 win at Stuttgart.
I was bored to tears when Eintracht frankfurt drew 0-0 with Werder Bremen, but enjoyed their 4-1 defeat at Monchengladbach. I also survived the goalless draw between Schalke and Mainz.
In the Second Division my lips were sealed in the home end when Dusseldorf were stuffed 6-1 at home to Paderborn. I also suffered goalless draws at St Pauli (Sandhausen), Union Berlin( Karlsruhe) and Bochum (Kaiserslautern).
The point I’m making is that this is a Manchester City Forum. There are more Bundesliga converts than you would imagine and I make no apology for admitting that Hamburg are my favourite football team (closely followed by Fortuna Dusseldorf and Schalke)

We respect Bayern and Dortmund, but sometimes it’s easy to form the impression that they don’t respect us,

 

[Schalker]

Via this way Thank you for Matija Nastasic
He proved his class in the last matches esp.vers Bayern and Gladbach,if its up to me he willnever return to Manchester ;o)

 

[Alex - City Matters]

So true and it's unbelievable that Bayern fans don't understand this. I don't put all the blame or even most of it on them, but Dortmunds collapse is a disaster for the Bundesliga, unless Wolfsburg can take their place.

Bayern fans may have disliked the moniker Der Klassiker, but it was good for the game. They had a Bundesliga match being compared to Madrid vs Barcelona: the two biggest clubs in the world.

Not only will TV money, sponsorship and interest go down, but players won't want to play for Bayern.

Even top German talents are going to choose to play in a foreign more competitive league let alone foreign players.

German football needs for Wolfsburg to win the Europa League at the very least.

Aletico vs Real will have lots of attention, because top teams are playing each other. Bayern fans seem to think that as long as they do well in Europe people will continue to care about the Bundesliga. They couldn't be more wrong and worse top players won't want to play for Bayern meaning they will soon stop doing well in Europe.

Although you're correct in saying BVB are important to the wider fan base, obviously there's no doubting that. But from truly getting into the "English Bundesliga scene" so to speak at the back end of last season (It's to do with my articles etc..) I've noticed that although Dortmund do have a large following over here, mainly from the 2013 CL run, there is a large following of teams like 'Gladbach, Fortuna, Schalke (very big) and HSV. There's a core of fans that support the league and teams individually that won't just leave if BVB fail. Obviously it won't help, but I think everyone is overplaying the importance of Dortmund. On an international scale maybe they're key; but in more developed football countries I don't see it as that much of a problem.

Also ever since the Bundesliga "rose again" an anti Bundesliga sentiment has formed in the UK, you can see it with certain posters on here. Once it started challenging the PL in certain ways, let's not kid ourselves the Bundesliga isn't better, certain people just keep peddling the same party line in regards to the league. The best one was Adrian Durham just before the CL final in 2013 claiming it isn't a big league because no one has heard of Fortuna Dusseldor and Greuther Furth. Well, how many Germans had probably heard of teams like Swansea before they got into the Prem.

With the greatest respect, I think you’re wrong, but possibly not for the obvious reason.

Our interest in the Bundesliga has steadily been growing since the 2006 World Cup. I actually attended Japan 2002 and supported Germany against Ireland, but that's another argument for another day.
Bayern Munich and Borussia Dortmund have both been vociferous in their criticism of the 1970 ECWC winners. Indeed a certain bavarian tax dodger was particularly vitriolic, but when he comes out of jail he might have a different angle.
Most of the animosity on this forum is aimed at those two clubs rather than the wider spectrum of the Bundesliga which the vast majority of City fans admire.
You mention Fortuna Dusseldorf and ironically I’m going to watch them in a few weeks.Indeed most of us identify with their yoyo struggle as opposed to the plastic success of Wolfsburg and Leverkusen, to which many German football fans ironically associate with Manchester City.
Last season I saw Hamburg lose 5-1 at home to Hoffenheim and 3-0 to Schalke. I witnessed Nuremberg throwing away a 3-0 lead at Hannover, which ultimately decided their fate, but was impressed by Augsburg at Dortmund (2-2) and Leverkusen (1-2)
I was in the Monchengladbach end on the opening day of the season at Bayern Munich. I enjoyed Hertha Berlin hanging on desperately to beat Werder Bremen 3-2 and also attended their 2-1 win at Stuttgart.
I was bored to tears when Eintracht frankfurt drew 0-0 with Werder Bremen, but enjoyed their 4-1 defeat at Monchengladbach. I also survived the goalless draw between Schalke and Mainz.
In the Second Division my lips were sealed in the home end when Dusseldorf were stuffed 6-1 at home to Paderborn. I also suffered goalless draws at St Pauli (Sandhausen), Union Berlin( Karlsruhe) and Bochum (Kaiserslautern).
The point I’m making is that this is a Manchester City Forum. There are more Bundesliga converts than you would imagine and I make no apology for admitting that Hamburg are my favourite football team (closely followed by Fortuna Dusseldorf and Schalke)

We respect Bayern and Dortmund, but sometimes it’s easy to form the impression that they don’t respect us,

I agree with everything you said; but what I meant in my previous post is that certain posters here and in the country in general have a dislike towards the Bundesliga just because it's challenged our football. Yes, Tax Dodger and others at Bayern have been critical there's no doubting it and that does show a sense of arrogance. But if you go to Munich their actual fans have no problem with us; the same with Dortmund.

 

[Alex - City Matters]

Most of the regulars on here will by now know I for some reason like FC Ingolstadt, who many of you view as plastic etc..

I found this, which I think sums up my view (and the Schanzer fans) views on the club itself.

We are aware that our club is called by many fans in Germany in the same breath with Hoffenheim or Red Bull Leipzig. However, please keep in mind that the two original clubs MTV (est. 1881) and ESV (est. 1919) already played in their history in the second division. Back in the 80s, the call for a merger of the two clubs was loud, but this only happened in 2004, as two professional football clubs are just too much for a 125,000-inhabitant city like Ingolstadt. The FCI develops at high after its founding, was sporting some cases faster than the overall environment and so it was found in 2007 without significant fan base in the promotion battle to two league again.
Certainly, this development was favored by Ingolstadt flagship Audi, which is the shirt sponsor since 2006. We see this commitment to a certain extent as logically, after all we are talking about a promotion of local sport through the largest employers in the region. However, it is always important for us to question this promotion and to critically observe. For us, the long-term and sustainable development process of the fledgling association and not the quickest possible sporting success at all costs is a priority. For this reason, we are actively engaged at least since the acquisition of 19.94% of the shares of outsourced football GmbH by quattro GmbH in FC Ingolstadt eV and advocate for more Fanmitsprache opportunities and compliance with the 50 + 1 rule. As part of success in this way can the anchoring of a Fanvorstands call, although this approach is not too far from over. It is obvious that the structures of our society are not the ideal situation - nevertheless, we will assume our commitment and our utmost to achieve our goal - follow on - the Association to help shape from the heart of Bavaria.

It is correct that if they do get promoted to the Bundesliga, they won't be getting very big crowds obviously that's not possible. But I do believe there is potential there, with the city and surrounding areas; with the shortcomings of 1860 and Nuremburg recently as well as even Greuther Furth it leaves a big gap for Schanzer. If they can get promoted into the Bndesliga and establish themselves then they could become quite a big regional team. Yes, the other clubs mentioned have established fanbases but if Schanzer prosper for a while they could get that next generation of fans who could've supported others. Who knows? Is the future Rot und Weiß? ;)

 

[Ruhr]

TBH, i don´t believe that. Half way between Nürnberg and Munich (and Augsburg not too far away) is one of the worst locations in football i can imagine. Nürnberg is a legend in german football, whatever league they play. People are used to suffer with them and not leaving. And Ingolstadt is bavarian, while Nürnberg and Fürth are franconians. That is a big cultural divide and rivalry. I really can´t think of a Nürnberg citizen driving to Ingolstadt to watch football (maybe Maldeika as a bavarian has a different point of view).