City and Religion

[ped]

religion is only an city/utd issue with people who have sectarian leanings,growing up in moss side in the 70s,the area had a large irish ,population,believe me most of them were blue .

 

[Didsbury Dave]

I'd be interested to read this if you have a copy lying around?

It was for king of the kippax many years ago mate. Lost it (or its in a box somewhere) a long time ago

 

[silverback]

I used to play football over in Dublin in the early sixties and the first thing they used to say when they knew I was from Manchester was "Manchester Utd".
Do not forget this was only a few short years after the plane crash so I suppose it was understandable. The better clubs over there, Shamrock Rovers, Home Farm, St Joseph's etc were considered feeder clubs for them as well.
I remember one time I played at the original Shamrock ground where the pre Munich team played in 56 or 57 and they had little plaques in the dressing room with the deceased players names.
If I remember correctly as well Manchester Catholic boys were a regular feature at the swamp, Matt Busby being of that persuasion it was easier to arrange.

 

[Anonymous]

Happy to be corrected, but I understand the first time this was mooted (Rags = Catholic, City = Prod) was Busby in a tv interview in either the 50s or 60s when he openly said "...are the Catholic club...".

My dad - schooled at St Francis, behind the monastery in Gorton - a Catholic and a Blue had never heard of this apparent religious link, as many Catholic, Gorton Blues of his age/era hadn't either.

Rangers have always had strong links with Chelsea and Everton. I think the so called link with City stems more from the 80s, or at least became more prevalent then, as we saw the multiple testimonial/friendlies/love-ins that lot were having with the Celtic. So rather than being a religious thing, it was more going opposite to that shower.

Often at games, in the Kippax, the shout would go up "Celtic!" followed by "Rangers". I couldn't tell you if it was 50/50, whether anyone was a genuine Celtic/Rangers fan or whether it was just shouted for the sake of something to shout. I think the latter personally as the shout was often followed by "Tiswas" with the response "Swap Shop!". Pretty certain it had nothing to do with defining certain sections of our fan base!!!

Whilst religion has certainly played a part in our early history being founded as St Marks, I am of the opinion (based on experience and what I've read) that as a club it has never really played the kind of significant role it has for the Old Firm and such.

 

[Gary James]

Happy to be corrected, but I understand the first time this was mooted (Rags = Catholic, City = Prod) was Busby in a tv interview in either the 50s or 60s when he openly said "...are the Catholic club...".

My dad - schooled at St Francis, behind the monastery in Gorton - a Catholic and a Blue had never heard of this apparent religious link, as many Catholic, Gorton Blues of his age/era hadn't either.

Rangers have always had strong links with Chelsea and Everton. I think the so called link with City stems more from the 80s, or at least became more prevalent then, as we saw the multiple testimonial/friendlies/love-ins that lot were having with the Celtic. So rather than being a religious thing, it was more going opposite to that shower.

Often at games, in the Kippax, the shout would go up "Celtic!" followed by "Rangers". I couldn't tell you if it was 50/50, whether anyone was a genuine Celtic/Rangers fan or whether it was just shouted for the sake of something to shout. I think the latter personally as the shout was often followed by "Tiswas" with the response "Swap Shop!". Pretty certain it had nothing to do with defining certain sections of our fan base!!!

Whilst religion has certainly played a part in our early history being founded as St Marks, I am of the opinion (based on experience and what I've read) that as a club it has never really played the kind of significant role it has for the Old Firm and such.

I always shouted Tiswas!

Agree with this post. My research has shown that other than the simple fact that St. Mark's was a CofE church religion didn't really play any part in MCFC's life. By 1887 there was no obvious link with religion and City's first major success (FAC in 1904) came to the club via a series of prominent catholic figures in the board, the manager's chair (Maley - a founder of Celtic) and some key players. That in itself proves that City had ditched any religious links.

Some often claim differently, but if you look at City's history you will see a variety of religious figures attached to the Club. It would be easy to say the club was this or that, but facts show otherwise.

Utd's situation is different. The club has in recent years denied any religious bias, but for many years it did promote itself as a catholic club via (most prominently) Louis Rocca. There are lots of stories from 1930s-60s about religion with Utd, but to be fair I believe Rocca exaggerated the situation and religious links in a bid to encourage greater support. A bit like City with the "This Is Our City" campaign of the pre-takeover days. Back then City needed an angle that wasn't focusing on trophy success and local pride was a definite winner.

In the 1930s Utd needed an angle; Rocca gave them that and it did help to some extent.

 

[Anonymous]

Great post Gary. I was always a "Tiswas" man as well. :)

 

[silverback]

Re the Scottish/Irish influences, from memory ( I was only a nipper) City had friendlies against Hibs and Hearts sometimes in the 50's. I do not know if they were part of any transfer dealings.

 

[lloydie]

Great post Gary. I was always a "Tiswas" man as well. :)

Great posts by both you and Gary, I was Tiswas too, I was also "left side" when we got bored of those particular artificial rivalries.

 

[newtownardsblues]

As Gary James, points out, early in the 20th century City had on their board both John Allison and Edward Hulton Jnr, who were both Roman Catholics and Liberals politically. Allison especially had links with Celtic and brought in a number of Celtic players and Tom Maley as manager. However, the vast majority of City directors were connected with three organisations - the Freemasons, the Church of England and the Conservative party. This influence had become important when Stephen Chesters Thompson became president of Ardwick FC, and Arthur James Balfour, Conservative MP for East Manchester became involved in City. Chesters Brewery became major shareholders in City until the First World War. Brewers were major supporters of the Conservative Party. The Conservative party influence can be seen from the 1904 FA Cup Final when A J Balfour attended the final and expressed his pleasure at City's victory and when City returned to Manchester, their victory celebrations took place at Ardwick Conservative Club.

 

[Gary James]

As Gary James, points out, early in the 20th century City had on their board both John Allison and Edward Hulton Jnr, who were both Roman Catholics and Liberals politically. Allison especially had links with Celtic and brought in a number of Celtic players and Tom Maley as manager. However, the vast majority of City directors were connected with three organisations - the Freemasons, the Church of England and the Conservative party. This influence had become important when Stephen Chesters Thompson became president of Ardwick FC, and Arthur James Balfour, Conservative MP for East Manchester became involved in City. Chesters Brewery became major shareholders in City until the First World War. Brewers were major supporters of the Conservative Party. The Conservative party influence can be seen from the 1904 FA Cup Final when A J Balfour attended the final and expressed his pleasure at City's victory and when City returned to Manchester, their victory celebrations took place at Ardwick Conservative Club.

Arthur Balfour was at the FA Cup final primarily because he was the Prime Minister (incidentally David Cameron was at the 2011 FAC and appeared in a box at the City 'end' at half time) and then because he was MP for east Manchester. Worth noting that although we like to stress his links with City, he also had the same links with United - a canny politician basically. You can't really make out a religious angle based on his attendance.

In terms of the make up of City's board and team - I think it proves that religion was not an issue/deciding factor at all simply because of the mix of religions and interests. Without Allison and Hulton City would not have achieved success, but neither would they without Parlby, nor for that matter Sheikh Mansour.

On Chesters... worth noting that fans believed the link with the brewers was holding back the club's development and that because of Chesters involvement City were forced to stay at Hyde Road when much better options existed elsewhere.