Confused....and angry

[Wooderbeen]

Unfortunately, due to piss poor management we are being fed selective leaks about what is going on behind closed doors & it doesn't paint a pretty picture. Like I said, look at the approach a good manager took to inheriting a pretty poor squad & then take a look at our current management genius.

OK, let's argue the merits of our current manager....of you go...I'm at a loss to see any. I stated at the time of his appointment that he had demonstrated a very poor record against the top teams in the PL (forget Europe because he wasn't in them long enough to form an opinion) which would suggest a lack of tactical ability. But, he was our manager & I reserved judgement & was willing to see what he could do. I take no pleasure in saying that he has flattered to deceive.

I've got no problem whatsoever with your opinion that Hughes isn't the man for us, but again (in the first paragraph above) you seem to accepting hearsay as 'fact'. 'Fed selective leaks'? Source?

Look, you might well be right and we might be lapping up the tripe being laid on by the club/Hughes. You might also be right that Hughes isn't the man for the job, but your strong views of what a good Premier League manager does and does not do is based on nothing of value. You don't know what goes on behind closed doors (nor do I) and you've never been in charge of such a outfit (nor have I). I've got no problem with opinions, it's just that the tone of your post seemed to be presenting your opinions as 'fact'.

As for the merits/positives of our manager that you wanted, well... I think he's done a good job in the market so far and I'm overjoyed to see that City have outscored all but one other team in the Premier League this season. Hopefully once our defensive errors are addressed, it'll be onward and upward. But that's not all.

My argument isn't quite as, ahem, scientific as yours, but it's not without merit itself. City have a tradition of hiring and firing managers at will and this system has reaped nothing but failure. I'm not saying Hughes is definitely the man to change all this, but I am willing to give him more than six months to prove that he's not.

As I said elsewhere, I'm sure I'm being a tad optimistic but I see us finishing at least as high as we did last season (with hopefully a good UEFA Cup run). Granted, it's not spectacular progress but I do think we'll have some momentum for next season.

 

[Brucie Bonus]

Wonderbeen makes a reasonable point about Hughes being judged over a whole season. In fact, one might argue that the first season for any manager is a case of getting his feet under the table; thought not a throw-away, the first season is suck-it-and-see. This depends on results though, obviously. In Sven's case many said that if the two halves of his season had been reversed, he'd never have been fired. On the other hand, as some wag said, if they had been reversed, Sven would have been sacked at Christmas. We'll never know about that, but Hughes is still with us.

Those who want Hughes removed often compare Hughes to date with Sven over the course of a whole season. Those who want Hughes to have more time point out that Hughes first half is on a par with Sven's second, and like is not being compared to like.

From the end of January 2008 many fans began to ask why Sven persisted with tactics &c. that had begun to unravel in early December. Much was said about Sven's tactics against Liverpool at home, when Liverpool where going through a very rough patch confidence-wise, and with unrest behind the scenes at Anfield. Much was said about that game, and none of it complimentary. At least we tried to beat Liverpool this season.

By the end of January Sven was routinely criticized by fans on the basis of his tactics and substitions. Questions were asked about why Sven just sat, passively, seemingly disconnected from events on the pitch. What appeared calm and composed early in the season was no longer seen as the external manifestation of an interior and inspiring assuredness. By mid-February, when Sven admitted (!) that we had been figured out, fans discussed in eager anticipation Sven's plan B. Sven never had a plan B. Many all along suspected he did not, and they were correct. Sven only had one plan; to send everything - absolutely everything - down the left wing in the shape of the flying Bulgarian Nosfertau. Shut down City's left, and game over.

Sven was popular with many fans who (desperate for some affirmation that City - and they - mattered) where whipped into a frenzy by a case-study in how to organize a mob, using the press, radio, and internet; fake "letters to the editor"; the awful involvment of the OSC and their use of a fake poll; fake polls on the MEN and the internet; protests that cost nothing, and the involvement of wums, rags and Franks enemies from Thailand; false and misleading data picked up and used by the press and even the LMA and some MPs!: priceless. It was easy though, I mean, Frank FFS?

So all the ineptitude that Sven exhibited, his dodgy or one-dimensional signings (hyped-up of course), and panic buying, his unbelievably dull and uninstructive interviews (the master of saying nothing), his lacksadaisical approach to team-building and fitness, his boring team set-ups and play, even his entire record at other clubs were all forgotten, blown away in a flurry of, "Frank is a Nazi" and "Frank knows nothing about football" soundbites. The trumpets were brought on: "Sven has to have the time to build foundations", but these trumpets were just saying something footbally, suggesting that Sven ought to be trusted to do something at City he had curiously failed to do at a single club he had ever managed. Still, "foundations" sounds all good and footbally, like "lead the line" and "loyal servant of the club".

Of course Sven's manipulation of the press (and players) during his dispute with Frank was hardly to be condemned was it? Never-ending leaks from COMS and the stories that made a bad man (Frank, I mean) pass over into the realm of Hitler and Pol Pot were picked up and repeated with glee and gladness. Any morning paper that made Frank look out of touch - not only with football, but also with the English - was eaten up over the breakfast table with as much relish as a full breakfast (extra ham, naturally). Back then, no matter the source, no matter the chain of command or propriety, no matter any princple, it was all fair so long as it worked to one managers advantage.

Forgotten was Sven's dubious managment style whilst with England. Forgotten were England player revolts and fake Sheiks: City players refusing to perform their duty and suggesting boycotts last summer? Frank had lost the dressing room, so who cared? No princples involved though, just remember that. Nothing to see, move along.

The seeds of this current revolt were planted last April and May. Hughes was Frank's man, brought in as a response to the laziness and unprofessionalism of the players (as Frank saw and accused). Frank made an investigation into each of the players; their lives, habits, associations and so forth were all put down in written form and handed to Hughes when boyo took over. Frank was right about so many of them.

When the Arabs bought City I wouldn't be surprised if messages like, "Thank G*d, he'll be gone now", and "Let's get this twat out of here", and "Do you think we can get Sven back" were exchanged.

During the second-half of last season players refused to perform 100% physically and mentally, and in some games I believe it went further.

I can never forget the petulance exhibited in the collapse against Fulham: shaming Frank (and us, more to the point) in front of a large Thai contingent, with the players having the nerve to take a lap of honour (boooooo! GTFO!) after their rotten show since December was a mockery. The 8-1 at Middlesborough - a result preciptated by Dunne's accidental brush with Tuncay's lower calf inside the penalty box (at the time qualifying for Franks UEFA Cup dream via fair play was in the air, we didn't need a red card) - with players laughing and winking at one another said all I needed to know about the loyalty of so many loyal servants to the club. They are loyal to no one and nothing but their own self interests.

Confused? No.

 

[CBlue]

As for the merits/positives of our manager that you wanted, well... I think he's done a good job in the market so far

I don't agree....he has signed some good players but were they what we needed at the time? He doesn't seem to have a game plan. He inherited a squad of players who had been assembled to play football i.e. keep possession & pass & probe (coincidentally - this is the way the successful teams play). He now has them going long & chasing/harassing the opposition. He is putting square pegs in round holes.

Manchester City executive chairman Garry Cook believes Mark Hughes´ background of shrewd dealings in the transfer market can only benefit the club.

With record signing Jo setting off with the rest of the squad on Thursday to a training camp in Germany, City are now trying to lure Ronaldinho to Eastlands.

It was Hughes´ dealings in bringing stars to Blackburn on a budget that attracted City to the former Wales boss and Cook said: "We do not have an open cheque book - it is important to be responsible. Mark has a great track record in that department and will decide the talent he requires. He says the squad is a bit unbalanced."

Copyright (c) PA Sport 2008, All Rights Reserved.

The above was from July 3, 2008 - that's ~ 2 months before the end of the August transfer window - he is still saying the same thing. Why was it not addressed at the time? What does the "Management for Dummies" say about this?

and I'm overjoyed to see that City have outscored all but one other team in the Premier League this season. Hopefully once our defensive errors are addressed, it'll be onward and upward.

I'm overjoyed that you are overjoyed. This is akin to Boro' beating us 8-1 but losing the previous 7 games 1-0...they still only got 3 points. Have we won by the odd goal this season?

But that's not all.

Oh goody...

My argument isn't quite as, ahem, scientific as yours, but it's not without merit itself.

Don't put yourself down...I'm sure it does..

City have a tradition of hiring and firing managers at will and this system has reaped nothing but failure.

Oh...it is without merit...which of our failed managers were you thinking would have taken us to the promised land given just a bit more time?

I'm not saying Hughes is definitely the man to change all this, but I am willing to give him more than six months to prove that he's not.

Me too...this isn't an opinion garnered over a six month period - like I said, look at his track record. BFS has a better record.

As I said elsewhere, I'm sure I'm being a tad optimistic but I see us finishing at least as high as we did last season (with hopefully a good UEFA Cup run). Granted, it's not spectacular progress but I do think we'll have some momentum for next season.

One thing is for certain...unless Hughes qualifies for Europe &/or wins the Uefa cup, he won't see another transfer window with City.

 

[CBlue]

Frank made an investigation into each of the players; their lives, habits, associations and so forth were all put down in written form and handed to Hughes when boyo took over. Frank was right about so many of them.

The 8-1 at Middlesborough - a result preciptated by Dunne's accidental brush with Tuncay's lower calf inside the penalty box (at the time qualifying for Franks UEFA Cup dream via fair play was in the air, we didn't need a red card) - with players laughing and winking at one another said all I needed to know about the loyalty of so many loyal servants to the club.

Wow...where to begin!!

I've picked a couple of sentences that don't make a lot of sense to me. Why were some of the said players given new/extensions to their current contracts if this was true (by "boyo")? Why have none of these players been shown the door & sold?

Also, I'm not sure that loyalty & football are great bed-fellows. You may find some examples of this but they are in the very small minority.

 

[Wooderbeen]

I'm pleased my post warranted so much scrutiny (oh and I'm sure you're pleased I'm pleased). My argument (you know the one I thought was not without merit?) that our previous system of habitually hiring and firing managers has brought zero success... what part of that isn't valid? Erm, it hasn't brought us any success, unless you count The Thomas Cook Trophy (which, if I'm honest, sometimes I like to do). I have no idea who could have taken us to the promised land, but that was hardly my point. My point was, we've not let anyone try.

It seems we'll have to agree to disagree about the transfer market. I think SWP, Kompany and Zabaleta are good signings (Ben Haim has been disappointing) and I'm very excited to see what impact Bridge can make too. Personally, once Hughes has his team in place, I think we'll be a much improved side. I suppose time will tell on that one.

And maybe I should be a touch clearer with my other point. I am willing to give him more than six months in this job to prove himself. As they say, Rome wasn't built in a day. You might find that saying in your book too!

 

[Brucie Bonus]

Frank made an investigation into each of the players; their lives, habits, associations and so forth were all put down in written form and handed to Hughes when boyo took over. Frank was right about so many of them.

The 8-1 at Middlesborough - a result preciptated by Dunne's accidental brush with Tuncay's lower calf inside the penalty box (at the time qualifying for Franks UEFA Cup dream via fair play was in the air, we didn't need a red card) - with players laughing and winking at one another said all I needed to know about the loyalty of so many loyal servants to the club.

Wow...where to begin!!

I've picked a couple of sentences that don't make a lot of sense to me. Why were some of the said players given new/extensions to their current contracts if this was true (by "boyo")? Why have none of these players been shown the door & sold?

Also, I'm not sure that loyalty & football are great bed-fellows. You may find some examples of this but they are in the very small minority.

Hughes was aware of the issues when he took over the club, and believed he could do what was required to solve the problems that Frank (and Cook) identified. Hughes made a miscalculation imo with the new contracts and extensions, but they certainly pleased fans (at that time). Sometimes going into a new job we expect a certain amount of discomfort, perhaps a little hostility, maybe resistance (and in Hughes case, he replaced Sven, was brought in by Frank, and is in a sense the living embodiment of Frank's criticism) if the job is supervisory and we are required to change policies or procedures, and everyone, not just Hughes, has a comfort zone. I think Hughes has been stunned by the resistance in the dressing room. That's my opinion. This is the same Mark Hughes that was at Blackburn. With respect, I really do think City fans are going overboard when they say Hughes cannot manage the GREAT players we have. We have GREAT players? Which of our GREAT players are kicking up a stink and behaving like idiots on and off the pitch? Elano? Pfffft. 99% of the blokes who think he's just ah, so special, had NEVER even heard of him before he pops up as if by magic. They'll claim they knew all about him. They lie.

Then it'll be, "but he plays for Brazil, so must be good / good enough for us". Right, whatever. I have some new stickers for the latest Panini album, lots of swappsies? Later I fancy a game of Top Trumps Footballers if anyones interested.

We have the basis of a good XI, but a terribly weak squad. I do find the talk about what a great team we had last season a bit much to take. They were good-to-lucky for four months, that's it. So many talk about teams that punch above their weight, do well for a little time (like Hull this season), but who eventually find their proper level. Looking at City since the last time we got promoted, how would you honestly characterize the first part of last season? A new and glorious dawn which Hughes has sabotaged, the continuation of our march into europe, or a flash in the pan caused by a few new faces and the new manager bounce? It's bollox. Sven couldn't get them to play for most of last season, but the excuses are legion. Can't blame Sven, can't blame the players, it was all Frank. I'll tell you what the problem is imo, fans who couldn't find their arse with their hands. They rave on and on and on and on about so many average players, they big them up week in and week out, the most basic skill, the most mundane attribute they praise to heaven and call it "quality" and "sheer class" and "top-drawer". We can't even drop Bill and fucking Ben cos folks would start crying, or is it that we just are so thin, we have no one to replace a pair of fucking flowerpot men?

Putting on a City shirt suddenly supplies players with skills and abilities and heart they strangely lacked before signing. If your name gets put on lots of shirts bought by fans, you can get away with murder. After all, no fan is going to admit he spent money putting the name of a muppet on a shirt, because that would display piss-poor judgment for all to see.

This business about player x or player y suddenly playing badly and it's all because of Hughes. The team is dreadfully unbalanced, which is footbally for "full of shit players who do not have what it takes."

I couldn't care less about clearing out the dressing room. I have no sentimental attachment to a single player. It's weakness. It prevents you from doing what is required in the best interests of the club. You are either good enough to justify 30-70k per week, or you are not.

 

[CBlue]

I'm pleased my post warranted so much scrutiny (oh and I'm sure you're pleased I'm pleased).

I'm not sure that it was given much scrutiny...like Hughes' tactics, the arguments aren't anything I haven't seen before but I am pleased that you are pleased but then again I am easy to please so please be assured that I have taken great pleasure in your assurance.

My argument (you know the one I thought was not without merit?) that our previous system of habitually hiring and firing managers has brought zero success... what part of that isn't valid? Erm, it hasn't brought us any success, unless you count The Thomas Cook Trophy (which, if I'm honest, sometimes I like to do). I have no idea who could have taken us to the promised land, but that was hardly my point. My point was, we've not let anyone try.

Yes, you are right...hiring & firing managers have brought zero success but that is the same argument that hiring & firing these managers has saved us from playing Non-League football or even worse calamities. The only manager that I can recall (in recent history) being sacked hastily (arguably) was Peter Reid. My question to you was who, in your opinion, would have led us to the promised land of "success" if they were allowed to continue & try?

It seems we'll have to agree to disagree about the transfer market. I think SWP, Kompany and Zabaleta are good signings (Ben Haim has been disappointing) and I'm very excited to see what impact Bridge can make too. Personally, once Hughes has his team in place, I think we'll be a much improved side. I suppose time will tell on that one.

Why is this not his team? He had ~ 3 months to put his squad together. He didn't know of the takeover & the near limitless resources until very late in the day. This was his squad that he had tinkered with & assembled for an assault on Europe & the top 4. I'm sick of hearing about this not being his team...it's BS. In my quote above it was clear from Cook that Hughes' frugality was one of his attractions:
"It was Hughes´ dealings in bringing stars to Blackburn on a budget that attracted City to the former Wales boss and Cook said: "We do not have an open cheque book - it is important to be responsible. Mark has a great track record in that department and will decide the talent he requires""

And maybe I should be a touch clearer with my other point. I am willing to give him more than six months in this job to prove himself. As they say, Rome wasn't built in a day. You might find that saying in your book too!

Now you are just trying to confuse me...I've already told you I can't read...plus I've heard that there is another book that states that light, land, sea, life etc was created in 6 days so what's the problem. Plus Rome didn't already have foundations on which to build.

 

[crystal_mais]

OK first of all what IS going on? We're hearing all kinds of reports and rumours of who we're in negotiations with, from the highest scale in the world to the most average in the premiership. Then we're hearing Hughes could be about to lose his job and transfers are to be put on hold....I hope it's the latter that is true.


Now the angry part. We've played well in 3 games out of our last 16 matches, the rest we've ranged from pretty average to completely diabolical. It's quite simply disgusting and all this blaming it on the players ability or attitude is shocking. Micah Richards, Dunne, Elano, Hart etc would easily get into other good premiership teams as well as many other players in our squad that are good solid premiership standard, not the best but certainly better players than what the likes of Hull, Bolton, Fulham etc have.

The truth is, of course, that Mark Hughes is completely and utterly inept. He's dragging us down to such a bad level that some of you lot now think the likes of Richards and Hart should be sold whilst players like Parker are just what we need. Well fucking shame on you. I can't even be arsed arguing all these points any more, this is my last thread on the subject as I know what you lot are like. Hughes performance as manager and the way he's blamed the players and left them out to dry is disgusting. Because of how badly he's doing we now have to set our standards of players we're looking at much lower than we should be, I only hope our owners don't show too much 'loyalty'.

Boring!!!

 

[crystal_mais]

Ive been against Hughes from the start but when a current first team player tells me some of the current squad couldnt give a fuck about City or they're fans then I'll side with Hughes in fucking ridding City of these leeching bastard jokers out of our club.

but these same players loved the club and played VERY well under Sven last year, its all VERY worrying and dissapointing

For half a season, where were they for the second half

 

[CBlue]

Hughes was aware of the issues when he took over the club...

So why does he continue to play Elano? Why is he yet to "blood" any of our esteemed academy graduates? Why didn't he off-load a number of these "muppets" in the 3 months he had before the window closed? Why couldn't he use the proceeds from the clearout & build a balanced squad? If all you say is true then why were the only players that left fringe squad players (Isacksson/Sun/Dickov/Geovanni/Mpenza/Corluka)? Or were these the trouble makers?

I'm not sure this is helping your cause.