Considering becoming a vegetarian

[Stuuuuuu]

Just had a read of this link, after something @somapop said in the Covid thread...

https://www.sps.nhs.uk/articles/inj...-in-primary-care-during-covid-19-vitamin-b12/

Vitamin B12 is exclusively found in animal foods like fish, meat, dairy products and eggs.

This is a common misrepresentation which I come across with some frequency.

B12 is created by bacteria and is found in water as well as in the traces of soil on vegetables. The new-found 1st world 'problem' (if you want to call it that) is that improved sanitation has undesirable side-effects: the B12 is stripped out of water in the process - a product of modern human behaviour. However, there are loads of products (plant milks etc.) which are fortified with it.

Similarly, our vegetables are cleaned so thoroughly (as well as being routinely peeled) that we chuck the B12 away.

B12 is found in meat products, but not for the reasons you might think: farm animals are routinely supplemented with B12. In other words, meat-eaters get B12 through supplementation.

The whole B12 argument in favour of meat-eating doesn't even get out of the blocks.

 

[Stuuuuuu]

There are nutrients that you just don’t get from a purely plant based diet:
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/7-nutrients-you-cant-get-from-plants#1

This article doesn't support the argument that you appear to think it does. The nutrients listed are either:

• plain wrong (i.e. they are actually available from vegan sources, e.g. DHA, creatine);
  
• misleading (vitamin D3);
• non-essential (creatine, carnosine, taurine);
• non-desirable, being associated with very poor health effects (heme iron).

The article's main point seems to repeatedly come back to vegans being lower in some of these nutrients, whilst neglecting to mention that this is a good thing. You wouldn't want to consume high levels of heme iron, for example.

The argument in favour of creatine is that it is desirable if you intend to be a body-builder. Did humans evolve to be body builders? No. Is it overall healthy to be a body builder compared to an athlete? No. Can you get creatine from vegan sources anyway? Yes.

It makes misleading claims, such as:
high levels of carnosine in muscles are linked to reduced muscle fatigue and improved performance

...whilst neglecting to mention how the positive impact of a vegan diet on athletic performance is well-supported by science. Plus, the 'high levels' argument is invalid when considering a 'normal' diet. How many people have 'high levels' of carnosine in their muscles?

In short, the article presents a series of misleading claims which don't stand up to scrutiny.

 

[WhereWereWeWhenWeWereWhat]

I agree. We do adapt and evolve well to various situations, and have throughout our history.

Plus I’m not really talking about supplements, that was just one small point I made. I’m talking about a proper omnivore diet with all of the foodstuffs within that diet which would mean we never need to supplement.

As humans in the 2020s, we aren’t in a situation where we are restricted to small pockets of food groups due to our local habitation/environment. While a vegetable based diet is very healthy, we can eat a proper omnivore diet from our local supermarkets, and that will surely be better for us as a species long term than any restrictions by choice to the pure omnivore diet, as omnivores.

It’s surely not just about being healthy-“enough” or getting by okay or even very well, or even succeeding excellently, without certain foods. It should be about being the absolute optimal humans we can be. And the only diet that can give us that is the pure omnivore diet of meat, poultry, fish, crustaceans, cephalopods, eggs, complex carbohydrates, legumes, nuts, seeds, vegetables, leaves, roots, fruit, fungi, cheese, insects and flowers.

Also, like I said above, if we stopped eating animals, we would probably have to cull huge amounts of animals due to them overbreeding and the problems that brings to the environment either through certain animals eating/devastating some habitats through their eating habits or through disease if their populations are too densely populated in certain habitats.

My information is stark to yours. Blue zones are areas where people are almost if not completely plantbased, where people live longer,
There’s a lot more evidence coming out suggesting that digesting meat (And not even high amounts) has negative affects on the body.

Also the culling argument isn’t true because the world isn’t, if it ever will, going to go vegan over night.

Plus even though it’s not the best for discourse. Meat and dairy companies are known to pay for studies and only publishing the ones that suit their agenda similar to cigarette companies of yesterday . What do vegans and veggies get out of their activism..Not financial gain anyway.

Up until recent history did humans eat meat as normally as we do today. It was in the 1800s that the idea we needed meat became so widely accepted.


Also, your part where you say we should be about being our absolute optimal, fundamentally disagree because people who don’t eat meat could very possibly be the best a human can be, just because we did it first doesn’t mean its right, its just a cop out to suggest we keep doing something for the fact that we did it in the past because there might be negative effects when healthy athletes are suggesting they’re much healthier now that they’re plant based.

Finally, it’s kinda dark to think that just for sheer unnecessary optimisation we should put a sentient animal through pain and fear
When you can be as healthy as you’ve ever been without.

 

[blueish swede]

We've been over this already in this thread. Plenty of our ancestors didn't have 'balanced' omnivore diets because they weren't hunters, and those that were hunters were so because vegetation was so scarce.

They seem to have fared ok without nipping to Holland and Barrett.

They fared OK untill they were 40, when they died.

No one has ever knocked on my door and asked me if I am an atheist. No one has ever come for dinner and told me they're a meat eater. Just sayin'

 

[Deleted member 77198]

Yes let’s treat them well then fucking butcher them and eat them, oh and while we’re at it, destroy huge swathes of the planet to feed and house them.

Yeah. As long as we don’t butcher them to death.

Stun them to death, then butcher the carcass for a lovely tasty meat meal. I don’t see anything wrong with that.

I actually mix it up quite a lot eating varying meals from all foodstuffs. Some plant only meals, some plant and land animals, some plant and sea animals.

All about enjoyment and taste while being healthy, for me. There’s nothing more tasty than a nice cut of hake or bass with rocket and tartar sauce on a brioche bun. And the array of foods you get from a pig, all of which are very tasty and enjoyable.

I watched a documentary where they were talking about growing and farming cuts of meat, in refrigerated farm factories, rather than rearing the animal. Not sure if that is something that is being trialed, or ever will come to fruition, but it’s an option for those who do enjoy meat.

 

[idahoblues]

Yeah. As long as we don’t bother them to death.

Stun them to death, then butcher the carcass for a lovely tasty meat meal. I don’t see anything wrong with that.

I actually mix it up quite a lot eating varying meals from all foodstuffs. Some plant only meals, some plant and land animals, some plant and sea animals.

All about enjoyment and taste while being healthy, for me. There’s nothing more tasty than a nice cut of hake or bass with rocket and tartar sauce on a brioche bun. And the array of foods you get from a pig, all of which are very tasty and enjoyable.

I watched a documentary where they were talking about growing and farming cuts of meat, in refrigerated farm factories, rather than rearing the animal. Not sure if that is something that is being trialed, or ever will come to fruition, but it’s an option for those who do enjoy meat.


Also cheers for the replies to my other posts, everyone!

As with all things in life, a good balance

 

[Deleted member 77198]

This is a common misrepresentation which I come across with some frequency.

B12 is created by bacteria and is found in water as well as in the traces of soil on vegetables. The new-found 1st world 'problem' (if you want to call it that) is that improved sanitation has undesirable side-effects: the B12 is stripped out of water in the process - a product of modern human behaviour. However, there are loads of products (plant milks etc.) which are fortified with it.

Similarly, our vegetables are cleaned so thoroughly (as well as being routinely peeled) that we chuck the B12 away.

B12 is found in meat products, but not for the reasons you might think: farm animals are routinely supplemented with B12. In other words, meat-eaters get B12 through supplementation.

The whole B12 argument in favour of meat-eating doesn't even get out of the blocks.

Cheers for the reply, good post.

But while farm cattle may well be supplemented with B12; free roaming cold water fish are good sources of B12 and aren’t supplemented as they are free animals, fished, but still open water.

 

[Deleted member 77198]

My information is stark to yours. Blue zones are areas where people are almost if not completely plantbased, where people live longer,
There’s a lot more evidence coming out suggesting that digesting meat (And not even high amounts) has negative affects on the body.

Also the culling argument isn’t true because the world isn’t, if it ever will, going to go vegan over night.

Plus even though it’s not the best for discourse. Meat and dairy companies are known to pay for studies and only publishing the ones that suit their agenda similar to cigarette companies of yesterday . What do vegans and veggies get out of their activism..Not financial gain anyway.

Up until recent history did humans eat meat as normally as we do today. It was in the 1800s that the idea we needed meat became so widely accepted.


Also, your part where you say we should be about being our absolute optimal, fundamentally disagree because people who don’t eat meat could very possibly be the best a human can be, just because we did it first doesn’t mean its right, its just a cop out to suggest we keep doing something for the fact that we did it in the past because there might be negative effects when healthy athletes are suggesting they’re much healthier now that they’re plant based.

Finally, it’s kinda dark to think that just for sheer unnecessary optimisation we should put a sentient animal through pain and fear
When you can be as healthy as you’ve ever been without.

But there are already many examples of the overbreeding. Like a local one to Northern England and Scotland streams, with crayfish. We need to start eating those little buggers because they’re decimating our streams. Awareness should be raised that this is happening so we can get them eaten and allow the streams to thrive again.

Also you can go hunting deer in Scotland. This is allowed to happen because if they were just allowed to run of their own accord, because they have no predictors in Britain and Britain is only small, they’d either over graze leaving grasses bare and starve; or they’d spread disease through too many numbers. So we can hunt them to control the numbers. And venison is very tasty.

Obviously there will be lots of information that’s true from both sides of the coin, and some that aren’t. I’m certain that some part of the reason why a lot of stories about animal foodstuffs being bad for us is because it’s becoming harder to feed the meat eaters of 7.7bn humans, so other ways to eat are being emphasised more to sway people away from meat... but some of t will be made up, just like there will be in pro-meat research.

 

[quiet_riot]

They fared OK untill they were 40, when they died.

No one has ever knocked on my door and asked me if I am an atheist. No one has ever come for dinner and told me they're a meat eater. Just sayin'

I bet no-one ever told you they were straight, either.

 

[denislawsbackheel]

Yeah. As long as we don’t butcher them to death.

Stun them to death, then butcher the carcass for a lovely tasty meat meal. I don’t see anything wrong with that.

I actually mix it up quite a lot eating varying meals from all foodstuffs. Some plant only meals, some plant and land animals, some plant and sea animals.

All about enjoyment and taste while being healthy, for me. There’s nothing more tasty than a nice cut of hake or bass with rocket and tartar sauce on a brioche bun. And the array of foods you get from a pig, all of which are very tasty and enjoyable.

I watched a documentary where they were talking about growing and farming cuts of meat, in refrigerated farm factories, rather than rearing the animal. Not sure if that is something that is being trialed, or ever will come to fruition, but it’s an option for those who do enjoy meat.

No animals are stunned to death.
It’s a precursor to having their throats slit.
If they are lucky.
Often the stunning doesn’t work.