Covid 19: Sino global relations

[AlgarveBlu]

Depends in how involved you want to get in debating Chinese politics really. Could absolutely be argued that the nature of the central government is what causes local provinces to look to cover up first. It doesn’t detract from once central government did get involved though, they involved the WHO, allowed external scientists to visit Wuhan and shared the genome publicly all within two weeks.

You have an unshakeable belief in the integrity of the Chinese political system despite the mountain of evidence to the contrary and on a system crafted on censorship. Do you accept they lied about the figures in 2002? Do you believe the numbers given by China are anywhere near the correct figures on the initial infections/deaths this time around?

I can’t believe for one second they are not complicit with Wuhan if you want to make that distinction, but I respect you have a different view.

 

[meltonblue]

You have an unshakeable belief in the integrity of the Chinese political system despite the mountain of evidence to the contrary and on a system crafted on censorship. Do you accept they lied about the figures in 2002? Do you believe the numbers given by China are anywhere near the correct figures on the initial infections/deaths this time around?

I can’t believe for one second they are not complicit with Wuhan if you want to make that distinction, but I respect you have a different view.

I honestly really don’t, I’m not sure how what
I put equates to thinking that I would, given I literally said that local provinces cover up to stop things getting to the central government (there’s a big difference in support from Chinese people when you compare local to central due to that). I’ve spent a year working with one of their major pharmaceutical companies and I know how the relationships are between some of the provinces and central government, it’s certainly not a model I’d want to replicate whatsoever.

If you compare this to SARS, I’d argue they acted differently this time and China is very different to 2002. Numbers wise, I think it’s higher than they said but nowhere near some of the figures being banded about. I think some are underestimating the strength of their lockdown and how them being more culturally aware of how to limit the spread of disease due to (recent) past experience would have made a significant difference too. The latter point is also why SK have done well.

I’d definitely disagree they would have been complicit with the local authorities, simply for the reason that it’s nonsensical if you really think it through. The last thing central government wanted was for it to spread to other provinces for the exact same reason every other country wouldn’t want it to either. Their lockdown cost them billions. Any of the answers to “why would they” go too far into the realms of conspiracy theories for me that aren’t actually thought through.

 

[Ban-jani]

 

[Ban-jani]

The report actually used the term “China’s numbers are fake”.

 

[AlgarveBlu]

It will be discredited as it's from U.S. Intelligence and be packaged up as part of the U.S. counter operation to deflect from their own incompetence. Even when China finally come clean on these numbers through a whistle blower what the numbers really are that won't provide any cover for Trumps handling of the U.S. response.

This is what I was saying weeks ago - was Ms Brix coerced by the administration into saying out loud what every virologist in the world already knows but dare not say - yeah probably, but it doesn't change the fact that withholding critical data portrayed an inaccurate assessment of the situation at the time.

Deborah Birx, the State Department immunologist advising the White House on its response to the outbreak, said Tuesday that China’s public reporting influenced assumptions elsewhere in the world about the nature of the virus.

“The medical community made -- interpreted the Chinese data as: This was serious, but smaller than anyone expected,” she said at a news conference on Tuesday. “Because I think probably we were missing a significant amount of the data, now that what we see happened to Italy and see what happened to Spain.”

 

[George Hannah]

The BBC News report on China's state surveillance system just now was really quite chilling. Seems to have been highly effective in enforcing their lockdown with many countries set to follow. Starts with your compulsory ID card which is linked to your mobile phone. Can't find a link yet.

 

[meltonblue]

The BBC News report on China's state surveillance system just now was really quite chilling. Seems to have been highly effective in enforcing their lockdown with many countries set to follow. Starts with your compulsory ID card which is linked to your mobile phone. Can't find a link yet.

Yep, it's crazy what they can do.

Also crazy that people seemingly don't take that into account too.

 

[Ban-jani]

It will be discredited as it's from U.S. Intelligence and be packaged up as part of the U.S. counter operation to deflect from their own incompetence. Even when China finally come clean on these numbers through a whistle blower what the numbers really are that won't provide any cover for Trumps handling of the U.S. response.

This is what I was saying weeks ago - was Ms Brix coerced by the administration into saying out loud what every virologist in the world already knows but dare not say - yeah probably, but it doesn't change the fact that withholding critical data portrayed an inaccurate assessment of the situation at the time.

Deborah Birx, the State Department immunologist advising the White House on its response to the outbreak, said Tuesday that China’s public reporting influenced assumptions elsewhere in the world about the nature of the virus.

“The medical community made -- interpreted the Chinese data as: This was serious, but smaller than anyone expected,” she said at a news conference on Tuesday. “Because I think probably we were missing a significant amount of the data, now that what we see happened to Italy and see what happened to Spain.”

Of course it will be dressed up as excuses by some with a particularly biased view.

 

[meltonblue]

It’s more just that the actual truth will be somewhere in the middle of what both are saying. As much as there’s legitimate questions to be asked, there’s very obvious deflection and over-exaggeration too. Nothing should be taken at face value, the last five years has shown that on a lot of subjects!

https://amp.usatoday.com/amp/2938374001?__twitter_impression=true

That gives a bit more context as to why there’s a lot of incomparables. Virologists must have taken into account, even without the numbers being inflated, that China’s numbers were never likely be achieved elsewhere due to the scale of their lockdown, which just isn’t possible in western countries.

It would be interesting to know what our growth and numbers would look like with those exact same measures implemented. We’d never do it though, society just wouldn’t allow it (thankfully, I have to say)

 

[west didsblue]

Everyone with a brain should have distrusted the figures coming from China, Russia and other autocratic nations.

Even democracies such as the Americans and ourselves are not providing the full picture due to inadequate testing and a reluctance to attribute Covid as a factor in many non-hospital deaths. There seems to be far too much anecdotal evidence of this to dismiss it.