Discontent that will end the Tory Govt is coming

[halfmist]

Perhaps there might have been more opposition if Hancock had said "We are giving PPE contracts to Tory donors who have no experience of procuring PPE". With hindsight, of course.

So your saying they should not do deals with companies who are Tory donors.
OK fair point.
Does this principle extend to a Labour Government, should they get elected, that no deals should be done with a Trades Union who have donated to the Labour Party.
In the interest of objectivity of course.

 

[law74]

So your saying they should not do deals with companies who are Tory donors.
OK fair point.
Does this principle extend to a Labour Government, should they get elected, that no deals should be done with a Trades Union who have donated to the Labour Party.
In the interest of objectivity of course.4

Companies that didn't exist when "lobbying" ministers - pals for contracts?

 

[halfmist]

How the fuck do you oppose the existence of a VIPLane that Lord Agnew as late as the 8th this month denied in the Lords existed?? Go on - simple question answer awaited.

You call it a VIP lane others call it a triaging system.
The Government were desperate to acquire equipment to protect front line staff, fact.
They were inundated with 100’s of Companies offering their services, fact.
There simply wasn’t the time to undertake a full audit on them all, fact.
The Labour Party, at the time were clamouring for a quick solution, not for the applications to sit on a Ministers desk for months.
The VIP lanes were open to all MP’s,Ministers and Senior Officials, not just Tory MP’s,fact
Now with that wonderful thing called hindsight, things are emerging which had they been known at the time, of course, no Government would have sanctioned them.
No doubt it will all come out in the Enquiry that the Government has sanctioned.

 

[halfmist]

Companies that didn't exist when "lobbying" ministers - pals for contracts?

That’s a red herring.
It takes about 5 minutes to bring a company in to existence.
Very, very, few companies had experience in securing PPE contracts because there had not been the demand for them until Covid.
These companies were competing with other Governments and other companies throughout the world for the equipment so the negotiations were bound to be a bit take it or leave it.

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

You call it a VIP lane others call it a triaging system.
The Government were desperate to acquire equipment to protect front line staff, fact.
They were inundated with 100’s of Companies offering their services, fact.
There simply wasn’t the time to undertake a full audit on them all, fact.
The Labour Party, at the time were clamouring for a quick solution, not for the applications to sit on a Ministers desk for months.
The VIP lanes were open to all MP’s,Ministers and Senior Officials, not just Tory MP’s,fact
Now with that wonderful thing called hindsight, things are emerging which had they been known at the time, of course, no Government would have sanctioned them.
No doubt it will all come out in the Enquiry that the Government has sanctioned.

Hindsight?
If only they’d run an exercise in 2016, where they planned for a pandemic and where all the shortfalls were highlighted and a plan to address those shortfalls, including PPE provision amongst many others, were clearly identified. Then, imagine the government of the day didn’t ensure those gaps were closed and then there was a pandemic 3 years later?
If that had happened that would surely be negligence not something to be criticised, after the event, as only solvable with hindsight?

 

[halfmist]

Hindsight?
If only they’d run an exercise in 2016, where they planned for a pandemic and where all the shortfalls were highlighted and a plan to address those shortfalls, including PPE provision amongst many others, were clearly identified. Then, imagine the government of the day didn’t ensure those gaps were closed and then there was a pandemic 3 years later?
If that had happened that would surely be negligence not something to be criticised, after the event, as only solvable with hindsight?

If only they’d run an exercise in 2016.
Interesting theory.
Say they had, then bought a lot of stuff that was-
a)out of date by the time of the pandemic.
b)the wrong type of equipment
c) no pandemic at all and it all had to be thrown away
The opposition would have had a field day, moaning about wasting money,particularly if it was purchased by any company with even the remotest connection to the Tories.
As we say hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[law74]

That’s a red herring.
It takes about 5 minutes to bring a company in to existence.
Very, very, few companies had experience in securing PPE contracts because there had not been the demand for them until Covid.
These companies were competing with other Governments and other companies throughout the world for the equipment so the negotiations were bound to be a bit take it or leave it.

I can remember watching the news about April May time in 2020 and listening to companies that had stitches, sewing machines and experience of producing high quality produce that had offered to make PPE, the government never even got back to them to explore the potential.

 

[bluethrunthru]

You call it a VIP lane others call it a triaging system.
The Government were desperate to acquire equipment to protect front line staff, fact.
They were inundated with 100’s of Companies offering their services, fact.
There simply wasn’t the time to undertake a full audit on them all, fact.
The Labour Party, at the time were clamouring for a quick solution, not for the applications to sit on a Ministers desk for months.
The VIP lanes were open to all MP’s,Ministers and Senior Officials, not just Tory MP’s,fact
Now with that wonderful thing called hindsight, things are emerging which had they been known at the time, of course, no Government would have sanctioned them.
No doubt it will all come out in the Enquiry that the Government has sanctioned.

Testicles - there were a number of companies who were established tried and tested suppliers to the NHS who had access to manufacturers of PPE that met the required standards but they were frozen out because this lot were too bust lining their mates pockets. There were people from those companies complaining that was the situation at the time and that will come out in the upcoming investigations and reports. They were the quick solution but the grifters and spivs overlooked them.

Biggest PPE suppliers 'ignored' by Government while 'VIP' firms got contracts

MPs were told there was a "feeding frenzy" for opportunists with friends in high places - while established firms struggled to get the attention of the government

www.mirror.co.uk

Investigation into the management of PPE contracts - National Audit Office (NAO) press release

This investigation examines DHSC's performance in managing PPE contracts. It is a factual account of what has happened since November 2020.

www.nao.org.uk

 

[halfmist]

I can remember watching the news about April May time in 2020 and listening to companies that had stitches, sewing machines and experience of producing high quality produce that had offered to make PPE, the government never even got back to them to explore the potential.

No doubt under your rules, with the benefit of hindsight of course, they would have had to do full due diligence on them first.
My experience of Government contracts pre Covid was something like a 20 page booklet had to be completed, even worse when the EU had any connection with a project.

 

[The Light Was Yellow Sir]

If only they’d run an exercise in 2016.
Interesting theory.
Say they had, then bought a lot of stuff that was-
a)out of date by the time of the pandemic.
b)the wrong type of equipment
c) no pandemic at all and it all had to be thrown away
The opposition would have had a field day, moaning about wasting money,particularly if it was purchased by any company with even the remotest connection to the Tories.
As we say hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Or, they could have just stockpiled PPE and then rotated it through the system so it was never out of date. Sadly we’ve got governments with no ability to plan anything. ‘Just in time’ is brilliant until the day it isn’t, and then it’s catastrophic. Gas storage? No need. Spare capacity in hospitals? No need.
We have traded off resilience for risk and, without a pandemic, a supply chain shock like Brexit and a war in Ukraine, muddling through might have been possible. However in failing to prepare this government have prepared to fail and that, by any measure you could put in place, they have most assuredly done.

 

[halfmist]

Or, they could have just stockpiled PPE and then rotated it through the system so it was never out of date. Sadly we’ve got governments with no ability to plan anything. ‘Just in time’ is brilliant until the day it isn’t, and then it’s catastrophic. Gas storage? No need. Spare capacity in hospitals? No need.
We have traded off resilience for risk and, without a pandemic, a supply chain shock like Brexit and a war in Ukraine, muddling through might have been possible. However in failing to prepare this government have prepared to fail and that, by any measure you could put in place, they have most assuredly done.

The problem is there is not enough spare cash in the system to prepare for every possible contingency whether it be disease, war flood or any unforeseeable disaster.

 

[johnnytapia]

The problem is there is not enough spare cash in the system to prepare for every possible contingency whether it be disease, war flood or any unforeseeable disaster.

Or bankers. Hang on a minute...

 

[halfmist]

Or bankers. Hang on a minute...

Taxing bankers bonuses including NIC’ ER’s + NIC ‘EE’s raises far more in taxation than taxing companies.
But don’t let extra revenue get in the way of ideological principles.

 

[Vic]

So your saying they should not do deals with companies who are Tory donors.
OK fair point.
Does this principle extend to a Labour Government, should they get elected, that no deals should be done with a Trades Union who have donated to the Labour Party.
In the interest of objectivity of course.

Gosh, it's whataboutery gone mad! Of course they shouldn't do deals with trade unions on behalf of TU members who don't exist. That would be mad and corrupt. But they'll be abolishing the Lords rather than putting their corrupt donors in there.

If I thought you believed your nonsense, I'd be worried.

 

[Vic]

You call it a VIP lane others call it a triaging system.
The Government were desperate to acquire equipment to protect front line staff, fact.
They were inundated with 100’s of Companies offering their services, fact.
There simply wasn’t the time to undertake a full audit on them all, fact.
The Labour Party, at the time were clamouring for a quick solution, not for the applications to sit on a Ministers desk for months.
The VIP lanes were open to all MP’s,Ministers and Senior Officials, not just Tory MP’s,fact
Now with that wonderful thing called hindsight, things are emerging which had they been known at the time, of course, no Government would have sanctioned them.
No doubt it will all come out in the Enquiry that the Government has sanctioned.

The National Audit Office has already reported. Why am I not surprised that you hadn't noticed?

 

[Vic]

No doubt under your rules, with the benefit of hindsight of course, they would have had to do full due diligence on them first.
My experience of Government contracts pre Covid was something like a 20 page booklet had to be completed, even worse when the EU had any connection with a project.

And now goalpostery.

 

[johnnytapia]

Taxing bankers bonuses including NIC’ ER’s + NIC ‘EE’s raises far more in taxation than taxing companies.
But don’t let extra revenue get in the way of ideological principles.

What the fuck are u babbling on about? You said there’s not enough cash in the system to bail us out in an emergency. I offered the example of how quantitative easing was soon untapped to save the profligate banking system. There’s always money available - when and where it suits.

 

[halfmist]

What the fuck are u babbling on about? You said there’s not enough cash in the system to bail us out in an emergency. I offered the example of how quantitative easing was soon untapped to save the profligate banking system. There’s always money available - when and where it suits.

You really are showing yourself up in both your choice of language and your knowledge of how the Economy works in the real world.
The bail out was not done to save the individual banks, it was done to save the Economy.
Without an adequate banking system there is no economy.
Literally millions of companies, individuals, pension schemes would have gone bust had the Labour Government not stepped in.
They had literally run out of money.
Comparing spending money on saving the Banks with spending money to speculate against a future event which may or may not occur, well it’s just utter nonsense.
Anyway I have better things to do over the next couple of days and I am sure you have too.
So let’s just agree to disagree on how the Country should be run.

 

[Jazzyblue]

Tories borrow an obscene amount more than Labour ffs. Spouting unsubstantiated bollocks.

The Tories have always borrowed more than Labour, and always repaid less: they are the party of big deficit spending

It is often suggested that Labour is profligate and the Tories are the naturally ‘safe pair of hands’ when it comes to running the economy. The Tories, it is presumed, do not borrow as much as Labour. This is a hypothesis I have tested before. I thought it time to...

www.taxresearch.org.uk

The Tories doubled the national debt even before Covid. People cling to this idea that they are better managers but it’s all marketing.

The secret of Tory success is very simple - they have essentially become a pressure group for the interests of a particular generation. In 1979 a lot of young and youngish people voted for Thatcher and the Tories have provided what this generation have needed through different phases of life. If you are in this group, unless you're ideologically on the left, it's rational to see the Tories as 'better managers' overall because that's your experience. If you are out of it, it's not your experience, so it's rational to look to Labour for answers. My view is that the biggest faultline in politics, sadly, is generational.

The other politically powerful group the Tories represent is the wealthy donor class. The right wing press exists to represent the interests of the donor class, and older people still buy print newspapers, so the interests of those two groups converge. Younger people just don't bother to vote in the same numbers and are concentrated in cities rather than thinly dispersed across the country, so they are neutralised in a first past the post system, with votes piled up in places like Greater Manchester, where they won't make a difference to the national picture.

If you are comfortably off and belong to the generation to which the Tories are loyal, then they aren't necessarily an economically right-wing party. They will protect health spending and non-means tested entitlements as well as protecting the value of your home.

There is lots of evidence that Tory power comes far more these days from these powerful contracts than it does from market confidence. Austerity and Brexit all shook investor confidence in Britain, and the Truss budget - the one welcomed as the most Tory budget in decades - was totally rubbished by the markets. Capital is actually leaving the party behind. The existential problem for the Tories comes when voting milennials outnumber baby boomers and as high house prices push milennials out of cities and further into the shires.

 

[bluethrunthru]

I hope Kieran isn't trapped in a high rise office block thats ablaze waiting for Mike to rescue him any time soon