Discuss Pellegrini...(cont)

[Chippy_boy]

But you saw my hindsight reference, right?

You really don't need to teach me to suck eggs, mate. I've been in and around football my entire life.

If football was as easy as you say, there would be no transfer market. A stock trader also knows when the right time to sell is, when to freshen up his portfolio.

We bought our entire team, it's worked out pretty well these last few years?

Regardless of how you personally view that approach, the reality is that top players go for mammoth sums based on what they are doing now.

Every signing is a risk, whichever club is involved.

For the record, Marwood tried to sign Sterling when he was at QPR but the kid chose Liverpool because he didn't think he would get a chance at City.

I'd say any significant amount of money would get any club to consider selling their best assets.

As United are showing with Shaw and Lallana.

The fact is that we can't keep buying from Spain or Germany, due to the homegrown rules.

Even the youngsters we are recruiting from around the world, we are already speculating on with very big money.

No need to get defensive my friend, I am only expressing an opinion and in certain aspects I agree with you, but in other ways I think you are wrong.

I am not suggesting there is no room for buying some English talent and doubtless it should and will form part of an overall balanced strategy. But not a wholesale clear out of half our team in order to bring in a load of youngsters who are either unproven or overpriced or both, setting us back for 3 years in order to achieve some longer term goal. I am positive we won't be doing this, which is a relief.

To answer a specific comment of yours "We bought our entire team, it's worked out pretty well these last few years?", well yes but it's widely acknowledged that we paid way over the odds for some players which we could do then before FFPR was going to be a problem. We can't do it now. And we didn't go after a load of super talented young English players who we all know tend to be more expensive as well. And of the ones we did buy, how successful have they been?

No worries!

We have a fundamental problem which Pellegrini and Txiki must address, although plenty of posters don't think they will.

Half our squad is not good enough, hence me being a 'ruthless bastard' to create room for top homegrown talents, and still work within the contraints of FFPR.

To date, we have not signed one super talented young British player, so their lack of success is no surprise.

Sterling could end up with a title medal this season, having made a massive contribution :(
Barkley, for me, is the most exciting talent I have seen on these shores since Gascoigne.

Guarantees? No.

But there are players in this country who would be a much more educated punt than spending £30m on an Isco, for example, who looked way out of his depth the other night.

-- Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:34 pm --

Yep, there's different ways of thinking.

My original points remains, Pellegrini and Txiki should be looking to make some of our rivals weaker by going after their own top British assets. They are out there.

£12m was considered a lot for Bale.

What about Phil Jones for £16m? Or Ashley Young for £17m? Garbage.

As I previously stated re those players. I'm talking proper money.

Young was known to be average at best, Jones and Smalling were unknown quantities.

They are a few brackets down on some of the names I have highlighted.

But these other players, the ones a few brackets up, say Sterling or Barclay? What do you think they would cost?

Thanks to one Michel Platini, we don't have limitless spending power. We already have the highest wage bill in the league and have missed FFP targets. We could conceivably bring in one or two of the above, but they would have to be our marquee signings. It's not like we could buy half a team of them. And having given Liverpool £40m for Sterling, what would Brendan Rogers do with it? More damage than we would cause him by taking his top talent off him, I reckon.

I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this mate. Interesting debate though.

 

[allan harper]

No need to get defensive my friend, I am only expressing an opinion and in certain aspects I agree with you, but in other ways I think you are wrong.

I am not suggesting there is no room for buying some English talent and doubtless it should and will form part of an overall balanced strategy. But not a wholesale clear out of half our team in order to bring in a load of youngsters who are either unproven or overpriced or both, setting us back for 3 years in order to achieve some longer term goal. I am positive we won't be doing this, which is a relief.

To answer a specific comment of yours "We bought our entire team, it's worked out pretty well these last few years?", well yes but it's widely acknowledged that we paid way over the odds for some players which we could do then before FFPR was going to be a problem. We can't do it now. And we didn't go after a load of super talented young English players who we all know tend to be more expensive as well. And of the ones we did buy, how successful have they been?

No worries!

We have a fundamental problem which Pellegrini and Txiki must address, although plenty of posters don't think they will.

Half our squad is not good enough, hence me being a 'ruthless bastard' to create room for top homegrown talents, and still work within the contraints of FFPR.

To date, we have not signed one super talented young British player, so their lack of success is no surprise.

Sterling could end up with a title medal this season, having made a massive contribution :(
Barkley, for me, is the most exciting talent I have seen on these shores since Gascoigne.

Guarantees? No.

But there are players in this country who would be a much more educated punt than spending £30m on an Isco, for example, who looked way out of his depth the other night.

-- Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:34 pm --

What about Phil Jones for £16m? Or Ashley Young for £17m? Garbage.

As I previously stated re those players. I'm talking proper money.

Young was known to be average at best, Jones and Smalling were unknown quantities.

They are a few brackets down on some of the names I have highlighted.

No worries my arse

He's a pompous dicklick who's head needs to go in the vice

#tit

I was just going to post, what a good thread this has been to read with the posts this morning, without all the bitching, then up pops you Zim fucking lol

 

[toffee balls]

I just dont see that they are too mithered about the future, in 2/3 seasons time, more than likely they will be both back in Spain by then anyway.

That is not the plan at all.

I am sure they will be here a lot longer than that.

 

[flb]

I just dont see that they are too mithered about the future, in 2/3 seasons time, more than likely they will be both back in Spain by then anyway.

That is not the plan at all.

I am sure they will be here a lot longer than that.

Spanish guy goes back home to Spain shocker?

Maybe maybe not, I wouldn't like to put all my eggs in one basket though.

 

[Zin 'messiah' Zimmer]

No worries!

We have a fundamental problem which Pellegrini and Txiki must address, although plenty of posters don't think they will.

Half our squad is not good enough, hence me being a 'ruthless bastard' to create room for top homegrown talents, and still work within the contraints of FFPR.

To date, we have not signed one super talented young British player, so their lack of success is no surprise.

Sterling could end up with a title medal this season, having made a massive contribution :(
Barkley, for me, is the most exciting talent I have seen on these shores since Gascoigne.

Guarantees? No.

But there are players in this country who would be a much more educated punt than spending £30m on an Isco, for example, who looked way out of his depth the other night.

-- Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:34 pm --




As I previously stated re those players. I'm talking proper money.

Young was known to be average at best, Jones and Smalling were unknown quantities.

They are a few brackets down on some of the names I have highlighted.

No worries my arse

He's a pompous dicklick who's head needs to go in the vice

#tit

I was just going to post, what a good thread this has been to read with the posts this morning, without all the bitching, then up pops you Zim fucking lol

All in jest Alan, I knew you'd cotton on to the funny side #legend (:,

 

[Didsbury Dave]

But you saw my hindsight reference, right?

You really don't need to teach me to suck eggs, mate. I've been in and around football my entire life.

If football was as easy as you say, there would be no transfer market. A stock trader also knows when the right time to sell is, when to freshen up his portfolio.

We bought our entire team, it's worked out pretty well these last few years?

Regardless of how you personally view that approach, the reality is that top players go for mammoth sums based on what they are doing now.

Every signing is a risk, whichever club is involved.

For the record, Marwood tried to sign Sterling when he was at QPR but the kid chose Liverpool because he didn't think he would get a chance at City.

I'd say any significant amount of money would get any club to consider selling their best assets.

As United are showing with Shaw and Lallana.

The fact is that we can't keep buying from Spain or Germany, due to the homegrown rules.

Even the youngsters we are recruiting from around the world, we are already speculating on with very big money.

No need to get defensive my friend, I am only expressing an opinion and in certain aspects I agree with you, but in other ways I think you are wrong.

I am not suggesting there is no room for buying some English talent and doubtless it should and will form part of an overall balanced strategy. But not a wholesale clear out of half our team in order to bring in a load of youngsters who are either unproven or overpriced or both, setting us back for 3 years in order to achieve some longer term goal. I am positive we won't be doing this, which is a relief.

To answer a specific comment of yours "We bought our entire team, it's worked out pretty well these last few years?", well yes but it's widely acknowledged that we paid way over the odds for some players which we could do then before FFPR was going to be a problem. We can't do it now. And we didn't go after a load of super talented young English players who we all know tend to be more expensive as well. And of the ones we did buy, how successful have they been?

No worries!

We have a fundamental problem which Pellegrini and Txiki must address, although plenty of posters don't think they will.

Half our squad is not good enough, hence me being a 'ruthless bastard' to create room for top homegrown talents, and still work within the contraints of FFPR.

To date, we have not signed one super talented young British player, so their lack of success is no surprise.

Sterling could end up with a title medal this season, having made a massive contribution :(
Barkley, for me, is the most exciting talent I have seen on these shores since Gascoigne.

Guarantees? No.

But there are players in this country who would be a much more educated punt than spending £30m on an Isco, for example, who looked way out of his depth the other night.

-- Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:34 pm --

Yep, there's different ways of thinking.

My original points remains, Pellegrini and Txiki should be looking to make some of our rivals weaker by going after their own top British assets. They are out there.

£12m was considered a lot for Bale.

What about Phil Jones for £16m? Or Ashley Young for £17m? Garbage.

As I previously stated re those players. I'm talking proper money.

Young was known to be average at best, Jones and Smalling were unknown quantities.

They are a few brackets down on some of the names I have highlighted.

To be fair, Tolm, you've been advocating mass squad culls for the last three years every time we lose a game ;-)

It will happen organically, as it has been doing already. There's no squad in the world without weaknesses, that's why all the top clubs are in the market every summer. When we nail someone down who improves the squad, we let one go. The key elements of our squad are in place: the captain, the playmaker, the goalscorer, the engine, the stopper. These are the players that teams are usually desperate to sign. We have that core, we just need to tweak alongside them. A centre half, a central midfielder, one-in-one-outs where we can on a few other fringe players and we are there.

Injuries, the fixture list and rotten luck have stalked this season. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

 

[Damocles]

To be fair, Tolm, you've been advocating mass squad culls for the last three years every time we lose a game ;-)

It will happen organically, as it has been doing already. There's no squad in the world without weaknesses, that's why all the top clubs are in the market every summer. When we nail someone down who improves the squad, we let one go. The key elements of our squad are in place: the captain, the playmaker, the goalscorer, the engine, the stopper. These are the players that teams are usually desperate to sign. We have that core, we just need to tweak alongside them. A centre half, a central midfielder, one-in-one-outs where we can on a few other fringe players and we are there.

Injuries, the fixture list and rotten luck have stalked this season. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I'm more in agreement with this than the culling idea. Ignoring financial implications, replacing close to half of the squad due to a perceived underperformance isn't very sensible. It isn't the message to send to players; that if they have a bad run of form then they'll be immediately sold. Nobody can work under those constraints.

As Dave says, we already have our solid core and we already have our edge performers that can come in and still do a job. There are certain parts of the squad that do need a freshening up but we need controlled evolution rather than revolution.

Every signing is a risk, there's no guarantee that we'll get a more complete player than we sold. This type of squad upheavel carries immense risk with it and I don't think it really brings in much return. You just aren't going to get two Kompanys, three Yayas and four Agueros in a squad no matter how much you spend.

 

[paulchapo]

To be fair, Tolm, you've been advocating mass squad culls for the last three years every time we lose a game ;-)

It will happen organically, as it has been doing already. There's no squad in the world without weaknesses, that's why all the top clubs are in the market every summer. When we nail someone down who improves the squad, we let one go. The key elements of our squad are in place: the captain, the playmaker, the goalscorer, the engine, the stopper. These are the players that teams are usually desperate to sign. We have that core, we just need to tweak alongside them. A centre half, a central midfielder, one-in-one-outs where we can on a few other fringe players and we are there.

Injuries, the fixture list and rotten luck have stalked this season. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I'm more in agreement with this than the culling idea. Ignoring financial implications, replacing close to half of the squad due to a perceived underperformance isn't very sensible. It isn't the message to send to players; that if they have a bad run of form then they'll be immediately sold. Nobody can work under those constraints.

As Dave says, we already have our solid core and we already have our edge performers that can come in and still do a job. There are certain parts of the squad that do need a freshening up but we need controlled evolution rather than revolution.

Every signing is a risk, there's no guarantee that we'll get a more complete player than we sold. This type of squad upheavel carries immense risk with it and I don't think it really brings in much return. You just aren't going to get two Kompanys, three Yayas and four Agueros in a squad no matter how much you spend.

There is some truth in this and the bigger problem is if they are at that level they won't want to warm the bench either.

Our main problem is our best striker and to a lesser extent centre half and captain appear injury prone,which is a big part of the spine gone.Two of our back up players are permenant crocks in Rodwell and Richards and Jovetic is looking the same,so the latter two,if not three need replacing with similar quality but hardier players.

Where Pellegrini has cocked up in my humble opinion is instisting on playing the same way no matter what the personnel at his disposal.It is ok going on all out attack when you have your first choice eleven out there,we will outgun most teams as we did Spurs,Arsenal and the rags.When some are missing he needs a more conservative plan B to get the job done,something he seems to lack at times.

 

[supercity88]

To be fair, Tolm, you've been advocating mass squad culls for the last three years every time we lose a game ;-)

It will happen organically, as it has been doing already. There's no squad in the world without weaknesses, that's why all the top clubs are in the market every summer. When we nail someone down who improves the squad, we let one go. The key elements of our squad are in place: the captain, the playmaker, the goalscorer, the engine, the stopper. These are the players that teams are usually desperate to sign. We have that core, we just need to tweak alongside them. A centre half, a central midfielder, one-in-one-outs where we can on a few other fringe players and we are there.

Injuries, the fixture list and rotten luck have stalked this season. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I'm more in agreement with this than the culling idea. Ignoring financial implications, replacing close to half of the squad due to a perceived underperformance isn't very sensible. It isn't the message to send to players; that if they have a bad run of form then they'll be immediately sold. Nobody can work under those constraints.

As Dave says, we already have our solid core and we already have our edge performers that can come in and still do a job. There are certain parts of the squad that do need a freshening up but we need controlled evolution rather than revolution.

Every signing is a risk, there's no guarantee that we'll get a more complete player than we sold. This type of squad upheavel carries immense risk with it and I don't think it really brings in much return. You just aren't going to get two Kompanys, three Yayas and four Agueros in a squad no matter how much you spend.

There is some truth in this and the bigger problem is if they are at that level they won't want to warm the bench either.

Our main problem is our best striker and to a lesser extent centre half and captain appear injury prone,which is a big part of the spine gone.Two of our back up players are permenant crocks in Rodwell and Richards and Jovetic is looking the same,so the latter two,if not three need replacing with similar quality but hardier players.

Where Pellegrini has cocked up in my humble opinion is instisting on playing the same way no matter what the personnel at his disposal.It is ok going on all out attack when you have your first choice eleven out there,we will outgun most teams as we did Spurs,Arsenal and the rags.When some are missing he needs a more conservative plan B to get the job done,something he seems to lack at times.

I think his method this season has been to get his brand of football through to the players - getting them to play the way he wants them to and learn the systems and methods to attack and defend as a team. Most definitely we have dropped points because he has stuck with it, but on the flipside we have won games because of it too. The team struggled to adapt at first and we had a lot of issues at the start of the season but he stuck with it and it will put us in better stead for next season. We will have a core of players who know how Pellegrini wants to play and then we can fix the rest of the squad around that. I think it would have been detrimental in the long term to play a different way early on because we had players unavailable. You also have to accept that Pellegrini wasn't fully aware of the best combinations at first but has picked up on the pros and cons of certain personnel. You also have to accept that he is tactically astute despite criticism because of the way he played against Barcelona. We didn't have many other options when we played that fateful game against Chelsea - and our tactics were brilliant for the first 20 mins. I will be expecting a repeat from the Liverpool v Chelsea game this weekend and hope that Chelsea keep a clean sheet and win the game.

We will be much better next season with a settled core and a settled manager. 89pts is generally a title winning total. We can get 86pts despite various teething problems in early games. What games do you look at and say - yeah okay we lost that one fair and square, we were awful. The Sunderland game away from home and the Norwich game are the only two where I can say we never looked like winning. But we haven't had a Southampton away like last year, or an Arsenal away like the title winning season. Had we managed to take that point from Stamford Bridge, or keep the lead at Cardiff or Villa, we would be on 81pts with 4 games left... the future is bright. We are concentrating on the negatives too much.For me the biggest disappointment is because of how close we will be if we miss out. It will be difficult to accept - but there are so many positive signs there - for all our errors and Pellegrini's criticisms, we are very very close to being an excellent side.

 

[Chippy_boy]

I'm more in agreement with this than the culling idea. Ignoring financial implications, replacing close to half of the squad due to a perceived underperformance isn't very sensible. It isn't the message to send to players; that if they have a bad run of form then they'll be immediately sold. Nobody can work under those constraints.

As Dave says, we already have our solid core and we already have our edge performers that can come in and still do a job. There are certain parts of the squad that do need a freshening up but we need controlled evolution rather than revolution.

Every signing is a risk, there's no guarantee that we'll get a more complete player than we sold. This type of squad upheavel carries immense risk with it and I don't think it really brings in much return. You just aren't going to get two Kompanys, three Yayas and four Agueros in a squad no matter how much you spend.

There is some truth in this and the bigger problem is if they are at that level they won't want to warm the bench either.

Our main problem is our best striker and to a lesser extent centre half and captain appear injury prone,which is a big part of the spine gone.Two of our back up players are permenant crocks in Rodwell and Richards and Jovetic is looking the same,so the latter two,if not three need replacing with similar quality but hardier players.

Where Pellegrini has cocked up in my humble opinion is instisting on playing the same way no matter what the personnel at his disposal.It is ok going on all out attack when you have your first choice eleven out there,we will outgun most teams as we did Spurs,Arsenal and the rags.When some are missing he needs a more conservative plan B to get the job done,something he seems to lack at times.

I think his method this season has been to get his brand of football through to the players - getting them to play the way he wants them to and learn the systems and methods to attack and defend as a team. Most definitely we have dropped points because he has stuck with it, but on the flipside we have won games because of it too. The team struggled to adapt at first and we had a lot of issues at the start of the season but he stuck with it and it will put us in better stead for next season. We will have a core of players who know how Pellegrini wants to play and then we can fix the rest of the squad around that. I think it would have been detrimental in the long term to play a different way early on because we had players unavailable. You also have to accept that Pellegrini wasn't fully aware of the best combinations at first but has picked up on the pros and cons of certain personnel. You also have to accept that he is tactically astute despite criticism because of the way he played against Barcelona. We didn't have many other options when we played that fateful game against Chelsea - and our tactics were brilliant for the first 20 mins. I will be expecting a repeat from the Liverpool v Chelsea game this weekend and hope that Chelsea keep a clean sheet and win the game.

We will be much better next season with a settled core and a settled manager. 89pts is generally a title winning total. We can get 86pts despite various teething problems in early games. What games do you look at and say - yeah okay we lost that one fair and square, we were awful. The Sunderland game away from home and the Norwich game are the only two where I can say we never looked like winning. But we haven't had a Southampton away like last year, or an Arsenal away like the title winning season. Had we managed to take that point from Stamford Bridge, or keep the lead at Cardiff or Villa, we would be on 81pts with 4 games left... the future is bright. We are concentrating on the negatives too much.For me the biggest disappointment is because of how close we will be if we miss out. It will be difficult to accept - but there are so many positive signs there - for all our errors and Pellegrini's criticisms, we are very very close to being an excellent side.

Lots of good comments in there I think. Without going through it line by line I will only say that we are too inconsistent for me. You just don't know which City is going to turn up. The City at the Swamp is absolutely fantastic, bossing the game from the 1st minute and terrific to watch, fast with crisp passing, movement, resolute defending. In a word, brilliant. But then we have the Sunderland at home City. Ponderous, dull, slow, shambolic defending, lacking in invention, loose with possession. In a word, shocking.

Now I know I pick two extremes, but our "good days" and "bad days" should not differ that much. Thank God we have had much more of the former than the latter. I hope we can be a bit more consistent next season. No more "we don't get going until the 2nd half".