Discuss Pellegrini (Pt 2)

[OB1]

Ah. Well explains a lot. So what do you expect from Pellegrini this season given the resources he has available to him? For example what would be decent and what would be excellent?

Well firstly, and this isn't a cop out, just common sense (imo) I'd say it isn't as simple as winning this or that, it is more complex than that in terms of this season. He has just joined a new club and so he needs to be given some time, just as Mancini needed to be given time when he first arrived. As I have said a number of times in this thread, it is easy to forget that after about 16 months, many people were not remotely impressed with Mancini but things suddenly clicked into place with that semi final win over united. I distinctly remember being at Anfield a few days before Wembley and I honestly feared for Mancini's future at the club after the match, top 4 looked very dodgy and the knives seemed to be well and truly out. Once Pellegrini has been given some time to manage the inevitable transition then I expect us to be genuine title challengers every season and I expect us to be able to win titles with some regularity. I also expect us to be competitive in Europe. I think that is the least we should expect with our resources, whoever is the manager. In terms of what I expect from this first season, well I would obviously hope that we can hit the ground running and win things immediately but I'm pragmatic enough to realise that this might not happen and that there could be some issues in transition. As long as by the end of the season there hasn't been anything truly catastrophic (like finishing outside the top 3/4 or not getting through the group stage of the CL) then as long as through the season there have been obvious signs of progression that suggest that next season will be a genuine title challenge then I would keep faith in Pellegrini. At this point though, I think it's way too early to say how we are going to do this season. It has been a mixed bag so far and clearly Pellegrini hasn't come in and instantly made everything brilliant, which is what we all hoped he could do (well most of us did). But I think we are seeing at Chelsea and united too that when you change manager it has to be given some time.

Fair enough. You nearly lost me at 'this isn't a cop out' :) but it would be churlish of me not to acknowledge you put forward a reasonable point of view.

It would: he did.

 

[OB1]

Was too busy at work to comment in last few hours but one point on achievements: I would rate finishing second in La Liga with Villareal as more of an achievement than getting relegated with Wigan but winning the FA Cup.

One thing we can all agree on is that all that matters now is what Pellegrini achieves with City.

 

[gordondaviesmoustache]

One thing we can all agree on is that all that matters now is what Pellegrini achieves with City.

Most optimistic statement of the year I reckon, OB.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Well that's mere semantics. Your idea of excellent may be my idea of decent anyway when it comes to judging a manager's achievements. For instance some people think Mancini's achievements at City were excellent, whereas I think they were just decent, given the resources he had available to him.
I'm sure there are plenty of Villarreal and Malaga fans who think Pellegrini's record with them was excellent.

Ah. Well explains a lot. So what do you expect from Pellegrini this season given the resources he has available to him? For example what would be decent and what would be excellent?

Well firstly, and this isn't a cop out, just common sense (imo) I'd say it isn't as simple as winning this or that, it is more complex than that in terms of this season. He has just joined a new club and so he needs to be given some time, just as Mancini needed to be given time when he first arrived. As I have said a number of times in this thread, it is easy to forget that after about 16 months, many people were not remotely impressed with Mancini but things suddenly clicked into place with that semi final win over united. I distinctly remember being at Anfield a few days before Wembley and I honestly feared for Mancini's future at the club after the match, top 4 looked very dodgy and the knives seemed to be well and truly out. Once Pellegrini has been given some time to manage the inevitable transition then I expect us to be genuine title challengers every season and I expect us to be able to win titles with some regularity. I also expect us to be competitive in Europe. I think that is the least we should expect with our resources, whoever is the manager. In terms of what I expect from this first season, well I would obviously hope that we can hit the ground running and win things immediately but I'm pragmatic enough to realise that this might not happen and that there could be some issues in transition. As long as by the end of the season there hasn't been anything truly catastrophic (like finishing outside the top 3/4 or not getting through the group stage of the CL) then as long as through the season there have been obvious signs of progression that suggest that next season will be a genuine title challenge then I would keep faith in Pellegrini. At this point though, I think it's way too early to say how we are going to do this season. It has been a mixed bag so far and clearly Pellegrini hasn't come in and instantly made everything brilliant, which is what we all hoped he could do (well most of us did). But I think we are seeing at Chelsea and united too that when you change manager it has to be given some time.

A good and sensible take on it, lancet. Something we can always expect from you. I've posted many times before that mancini's entire city career hinged on that wembley semi final, and in particular half time. It flushed the whole club with belief. But you've hit the nail on the head: People saying "Pellegrini has to do better than second and a cup final" don't know what they are talking about. What he has to do is demonstrate that he is the man to hit city's "phase 3" objectives for the project. And there can be little doubt what they are from the way the club's top brass, and Pellegrini himself, are talking: he is tasked with making city one of europe's top clubs. Now to be one of europe's top clubs we have to do well in the champions league, in fact to win it one day, along with winning plenty of domestic honours including league titles.

He will be evaluated, like most managers in Europe, at the end of the season. And city's top brass won't base their decision on what he's won or not won, because there are too many variables. They'll base their decision on the future. Has this man shown he has what it takes to take city to where we want them to be? Results will of course be a big indicator. But they won't be the only one.

As it stands this squad is marginally the best in England and the fourth or fifth best in Europe in my opinion. That's what he is working with. But if he misses out on the title by a few points because we get distracted by a champions league and domestic cup run, or he loses in the cl last 16 but wins the league, or whatever, and shapes a culture around the club that we and he can build on, then he's going to have the sheikh eating out of his hand. And the fans, including the last few ostriches still pining for their fallen hero.

I have a feeling he will. But you're damn right that its far too early to say.

 

[andyhinch]

Ah. Well explains a lot. So what do you expect from Pellegrini this season given the resources he has available to him? For example what would be decent and what would be excellent?

Well firstly, and this isn't a cop out, just common sense (imo) I'd say it isn't as simple as winning this or that, it is more complex than that in terms of this season. He has just joined a new club and so he needs to be given some time, just as Mancini needed to be given time when he first arrived. As I have said a number of times in this thread, it is easy to forget that after about 16 months, many people were not remotely impressed with Mancini but things suddenly clicked into place with that semi final win over united. I distinctly remember being at Anfield a few days before Wembley and I honestly feared for Mancini's future at the club after the match, top 4 looked very dodgy and the knives seemed to be well and truly out. Once Pellegrini has been given some time to manage the inevitable transition then I expect us to be genuine title challengers every season and I expect us to be able to win titles with some regularity. I also expect us to be competitive in Europe. I think that is the least we should expect with our resources, whoever is the manager. In terms of what I expect from this first season, well I would obviously hope that we can hit the ground running and win things immediately but I'm pragmatic enough to realise that this might not happen and that there could be some issues in transition. As long as by the end of the season there hasn't been anything truly catastrophic (like finishing outside the top 3/4 or not getting through the group stage of the CL) then as long as through the season there have been obvious signs of progression that suggest that next season will be a genuine title challenge then I would keep faith in Pellegrini. At this point though, I think it's way too early to say how we are going to do this season. It has been a mixed bag so far and clearly Pellegrini hasn't come in and instantly made everything brilliant, which is what we all hoped he could do (well most of us did). But I think we are seeing at Chelsea and united too that when you change manager it has to be given some time.

A good and sensible take on it, lancet. Something we can always expect from you. I've posted many times before that mancini's entire city career hinged on that wembley semi final, and in particular half time. It flushed the whole club with belief. But you've hit the nail on the head: People saying "Pellegrini has to do better than second and a cup final" don't know what they are talking about. What he has to do is demonstrate that he is the man to hit city's "phase 3" objectives for the project. And there can be little doubt what they are from the way the club's top brass, and Pellegrini himself, are talking: he is tasked with making city one of europe's top clubs. Now to be one of europe's top clubs we have to do well in the champions league, in fact to win it one day, along with winning plenty of domestic honours including league titles.

He will be evaluated, like most managers in Europe, at the end of the season. And city's top brass won't base their decision on what he's won or not won, because there are too many variables. They'll base their decision on the future. Has this man shown he has what it takes to take city to where we want them to be? Results will of course be a big indicator. But they won't be the only one.

As it stands this squad is marginally the best in England and the fourth or fifth best in Europe in my opinion. That's what he is working with. But if he misses out on the title by a few points because we get distracted by a champions league and domestic cup run, or he loses in the cl last 16 but wins the league, or whatever, and shapes a culture around the club that we and he can build on, then he's going to have the sheikh eating out of his hand. And the fans, including the last few ostriches still pining for their fallen hero.

I have a feeling he will. But you're damn right that its far too early to say.

Good posts by the two of you.

 

[Chillipeppa62]

Anyone think that Pellegrini is an absolute spit for Dave Allen (for younger folk he was an Irish comic from 70's). We should petition for the theme from his show to be played before the home games.

 

[BluessinceHydeRoad]

Well that's mere semantics. Your idea of excellent may be my idea of decent anyway when it comes to judging a manager's achievements. For instance some people think Mancini's achievements at City were excellent, whereas I think they were just decent, given the resources he had available to him.
I'm sure there are plenty of Villarreal and Malaga fans who think Pellegrini's record with them was excellent.

Ah. Well explains a lot. So what do you expect from Pellegrini this season given the resources he has available to him? For example what would be decent and what would be excellent?

Well firstly, and this isn't a cop out, just common sense (imo) I'd say it isn't as simple as winning this or that, it is more complex than that in terms of this season. He has just joined a new club and so he needs to be given some time, just as Mancini needed to be given time when he first arrived. As I have said a number of times in this thread, it is easy to forget that after about 16 months, many people were not remotely impressed with Mancini but things suddenly clicked into place with that semi final win over united. I distinctly remember being at Anfield a few days before Wembley and I honestly feared for Mancini's future at the club after the match, top 4 looked very dodgy and the knives seemed to be well and truly out. Once Pellegrini has been given some time to manage the inevitable transition then I expect us to be genuine title challengers every season and I expect us to be able to win titles with some regularity. I also expect us to be competitive in Europe. I think that is the least we should expect with our resources, whoever is the manager. In terms of what I expect from this first season, well I would obviously hope that we can hit the ground running and win things immediately but I'm pragmatic enough to realise that this might not happen and that there could be some issues in transition. As long as by the end of the season there hasn't been anything truly catastrophic (like finishing outside the top 3/4 or not getting through the group stage of the CL) then as long as through the season there have been obvious signs of progression that suggest that next season will be a genuine title challenge then I would keep faith in Pellegrini. At this point though, I think it's way too early to say how we are going to do this season. It has been a mixed bag so far and clearly Pellegrini hasn't come in and instantly made everything brilliant, which is what we all hoped he could do (well most of us did). But I think we are seeing at Chelsea and united too that when you change manager it has to be given some time.

Personally I would settle for top 3 in the PL and the last 16, preferably the last 8 (thought we clearly have to take account of who we meet in the knock out stages) this season with the expectation of stronger performances in the seasons to come. I think we're being naive if we think that the owner and the board haven't laid down to Pellegrini exactly what the minimum requirements this season are as well as those for the future, though they will be subject to revision/submission each season. History has shown us that they will back every manager of the club, but they do expect results and I don't think any manager who doesn't finish in the top three will survive now. We have seen twice now that they are absolutely ruthless when they fear the minimum target is not going to be hit. We still don't know exactly what got Mancini the sack, but I suspect it's some cold, dispassionate statistics at bottom. They don't get lost in vague, imprecise impressions but deal in cold, hard statistics. Hughes's dismissal is instructive in this. When he was sacked he had agreed a target of 70 points for the season. The board had backed him with about £100 million, and when they sacked him City had played 17, won 7, drawn 8 and lost only 2. They had 29 points, which would suggest a total of 65 for the season. By December he was about 2 points off the pace - but of the first 7 games he won 6 and lost 1: of his last 10 games he won 2 (including the hardest, v Chelsea!), drew 8 and lost 1 (3 - 0 at Spurs). This was the "trajectory" that suggested City would fall well short. Now, this shows that the board, especially Khaldoon and the owner, don't muck about - the manager has an overall season target, but it's monitored at all times and woe betide the manager who falls off the pace too much! I think Pellegrini will get a whole season unless he drops off too much, but I don't think our owner has too much patience with "transition". We need about 75 points to be sure of the top 3, and that means 19-20 points after 10 games, 39-40 after 20 games. Mancini's results for the rest of the season suggested a total of 72 points for the season. The next season there was a lot of dissatisfaction with the style of play, but his results always kept him on track for the top 4. The Liverpool result was a bad result and a very poor performance, but turned out to be an isolated defeat, being the Monday before the semi. Of course we beat the rags, our only other defeat was at Goodison the Saturday before the final, which meant we won 5 of our last 6 league games and finished 3rd, 3 points clear of Arsenal and 10 clear of Spurs.

Now, this is not an anti-Pellegrini post - I'm a City fan of nearly 60 years standing, so I'd wish the devil himself the best of luck if he came to manage City! But we all need to realise that no-one gets a free ride at City. Pellegrini is well paid, the club has backed him with big money. But they expect a minimum level of achievement, and won't tolerate failure. Personally I can't see how City can't finish in the top 3 - as Souness said last night, "after ten games or so the cream rises to the top..". At City eyebrows will be raised if it hasn't.

 

[IcriedwhenTueartleft]

He seems a thoroughly decent guy with a very decent record given the level of resources he has generally had at his disposal...

Agreed. If you like 'decent'. I prefer 'good' or 'excellent' as 'decent' doesn't quite cut it for me. Which is fine. We all have different standards.

Well that's mere semantics. Your idea of excellent may be my idea of decent anyway when it comes to judging a manager's achievements. For instance some people think Mancini's achievements at City were excellent, whereas I think they were just decent, given the resources he had available to him.
I'm sure there are plenty of Villarreal and Malaga fans who think Pellegrini's record with them was excellent.

Extremely well put

 

[St Helens Blue (Exiled)]

Evening all.
I thought Pellers got his tactics spot on last night..No issues from me at all.
Really pleased for the boss.
Lets go again Sunday Manuel and I can really start to believe in the future.

 

[cibaman]

Anyone think that Pellegrini is an absolute spit for Dave Allen (for younger folk he was an Irish comic from 70's). We should petition for the theme from his show to be played before the home games.

Too many fingers