Discuss Pellegrini (Pt 3)

[FantasyIreland]

The best squad we've had? i'd probably agree.

However,that fact is largely irrelevant when half of it is unavailable.

Aguero and Kompany started less than two-thirds of our Premier League games last season through injury.

Yep,and last season was a cluster fuck.

This year we seem to have been hit even harder by the injury bug,the lack of form/loss of ability with some individuals is also a factor.

 

[Skashion]

Yep,and last season was a cluster fuck.

This year we seem to have been hit even harder by the injury bug,the lack of form/loss of ability with some individuals is also a factor.

Cluster fuck is a bit harsh, second and an FA Cup final is not too shabby for what I called a disappointing season. We must improve on that. Attain more points or win a trophy (not including the Capital One Cup).

 

[mancity1]

Scott Sinclair? He barely played and there's no chance on this Earth you can argue Navas is a downgrade on Scott bloody Sinclair. He is a huge upgrade, and a bump up on Johnson too. Balotelli sold in January. Tevez for Negredo. Personally, I think Negredo gives us a lot more than Tevez, but ok, let's call that a straight swap. Fernandinho, upgrade on Barry.

As far as I'm concerned we're one-and-a-half players up on last season, Navas and Jovetic, with Fernandinho and Negredo representing a further improvement to the balance of the squad. This squad is better than last season's, I don't know how it can be argued. 11/12 is more debatable but not last season.

I'll agree to disagree on that point. We'll know if I'm right or not depending on whether we keep conceding more goals. If we can get it down to a goal a game average, I'll be satisfied.

It's interesting ... you seem to be getting hold of the wrong end of the stick. I happen to believe that all the players we signed last summer are an upgrade on the outgoing players for various reasons, so yes our squad is stronger than last season, and arguably stronger than the title winning squad. However the constant references to how we've added 100 million pounds worth of talent without any reference to the players who went out is wildly disingenuous when it's used as a stick with which to beat the manager. Especially when he's had barely a few months with those players.

Its more the point we haven't hit the ground running BS.

It's our worst start since the takeover all things considered.

11 games in almost 30 per cent of games is not a small chunk.

The games start to pile up quickly.

We will have to win a few away games against sides we didn't expect we would now.

No one would have thought we would get one point against Stoke , Cardiff , Villa , Sunderland and Chelsea.

Three of those would have been considered bankers.

We will probably have to get wins at Southampton , Swansea and, Everton now and pick two wins away from Manure, Liverpool , Arsenal , Spurs to get back on track.

Can we do that BS?

 

[Anonymous]

It's interesting ... you seem to be getting hold of the wrong end of the stick. I happen to believe that all the players we signed last summer are an upgrade on the outgoing players for various reasons, so yes our squad is stronger than last season, and arguably stronger than the title winning squad. However the constant references to how we've added 100 million pounds worth of talent without any reference to the players who went out is wildly disingenuous when it's used as a stick with which to beat the manager. Especially when he's had barely a few months with those players.

Might be because you said the players we bought were a downgrade (which you're now contradicting) thereby making the money spent irrelevant.

The ones we bought in the summer were all classed as a downgrade on the outgoing players. Whichever way you cut it, the money spent/players bought is an irrelevance and a total red herring.

Well, it's not irrelevant. We improved the squad so we should do better than last season. Okie dokie.

What I meant by "were all classed as a downgrade" was that people on this forum, those same people unsurprisingly who are unprepared to give Pellegrini a fair shake, were unprepared to give our new signings a new chance. Hence names like Flopinho for Fernandinho, or the Spanish Grant Holt for Negredo. Hope that clears up why I wasn't by any stretch contradicting myself.

With respect to "stronger squad = better finish than last season" - that assumes everyone else stands still. Which they patently haven't. This season is comfortably the most competitive PL season I can remember. That's because it's much stronger than last season, or our title winning season. Therefore, yes we've improved the squad, but the idea that we will automatically collect more points than last season, or should collect more points that last season, is just dumb.

 

[Matty]

It's interesting ... you seem to be getting hold of the wrong end of the stick. I happen to believe that all the players we signed last summer are an upgrade on the outgoing players for various reasons, so yes our squad is stronger than last season, and arguably stronger than the title winning squad. However the constant references to how we've added 100 million pounds worth of talent without any reference to the players who went out is wildly disingenuous when it's used as a stick with which to beat the manager. Especially when he's had barely a few months with those players.

Might be because you said the players we bought were a downgrade (which you're now contradicting) thereby making the money spent irrelevant.

The ones we bought in the summer were all classed as a downgrade on the outgoing players. Whichever way you cut it, the money spent/players bought is an irrelevance and a total red herring.

Well, it's not irrelevant. We improved the squad so we should do better than last season. Okie dokie.

What I meant by "were all classed as a downgrade" was that people on this forum, those same people unsurprisingly who are unprepared to give Pellegrini a fair shake, were unprepared to give our new signings a new chance. Hence names like Flopinho for Fernandinho, or the Spanish Grant Holt for Negredo. Hope that clears up why I wasn't by any stretch contradicting myself.

With respect to "stronger squad = better finish than last season" - that assumes everyone else stands still. Which they patently haven't. This season is comfortably the most competitive PL season I can remember. That's because it's much stronger than last season, or our title winning season. Therefore, yes we've improved the squad, but the idea that we will automatically collect more points than last season, or should collect more points that last season, is just dumb.

Must admit, I initially thought you were saying you personally felt we'd downgraded in the Summer as well! Remember thinking I didn't really understand where you were coming from. I was too "involved" in the Dzeko thread to get involved here too though!

 

[BobKowalski]

We spent money on players to replace outgoing ones. The ones we bought in the summer were all classed as a downgrade on the outgoing players. Whichever way you cut it, the money spent/players bought is an irrelevance and a total red herring.

I agree though that it'd be nice to talk about football rather than Mancini or dissecting stats to try and prove our away form is a shit. It is and it has been for a while, certainly in comparison to our home form.

Something OB1 has repeatedly posted but has been repeatedly ignored is that we are conceding a very small amount of shots on our own goal, and that you would expect over the course of a season for this to be reflected in the results away from home. The anomalous results this season (Cardiff/Villa) have been down to individual mistakes which for the players involved were uncharacteristic.

Of course this doesn't excuse anything because ultimately you either pick up the points or you don't. However it does go some way to showing that although the form is bad, it's fixable and I suspect by the end of the season it will be.

If you're talking about replacing players not replaced last season, yes, perhaps. Navas for Adam Johnson. Jovetic for Balotelli. That's fine, but then we cannot compare to last season's results. I'd be happy to say 11/12 is the benchmark to beat, we've got to improve from there. Otherwise, if we're comparing to last season undoubtedly this squad is better than last season's. In my opinion this squad is the best balanced squad we've had. We got pace on one of the wings. We have an aerial threat who is also a workhorse up front, and we've certainly got more quality long passes coming in from Fernandinho. Those all give us extra dimensions that we've not had before. If you don't agree that we've got a squad better than 11/12 (with Tevez missing for six months), ok, fair enough, matter of opinion, but there's no chance this squad isn't better than last season's.

I don't see it as an anomaly. We've talked about this before. I think the chances the opposition getting now are clearer cut, if you play a high line and use wing-backs there is more space and less players back to cover it. Ergo, we concede more.

Agreed. The number of chances versus quality of chances issue has been debated extensively. Chelsea's 2 goals were both into an empty net, the first from 1 yard out. Sunderland 1 on 1 with the GK. Villa clean through on goal. The long punt upfield and the defence at sea has been a common sight. Arsenal pre-season and losing 3-0 was a warning sign that was airily dismissed by everyone. I still wince at Vincent's post game comments.

I also agree that we should be using the 11/12 season as our benchmark. Instead we console ourselves that 'its better than last season'. Well duh. A season that was ultimately disappointing so yes the whole idea was to make it better than last season. That surely is a minimum. Our aim must be to do better than 11/12. Concede the least, score the most, play good football and win the PL. By any measure we have the best squad even if we are seeing media reports of shipping players in and out (which is no great surprise as I said the other day Pellers cannot be seen to fail so the players will carry the can).

The fact that results wise its actually worse than last season is a legitimate cause for concern. The fact that we seem to be stuck in a sea of uncertainty between what we used to do previously and what Pellers (allegedly) wants us to do this year is also grounds for concern . I say 'allegedly' because I'm not actually seeing what Pellers wants us to do or why the 'Pellers way' still seems to be a riddle wrapped in an enigma as far as the players are concerned. I have asked before, including before the season started, what exactly is the 'Pellers way' and never quite got a straight answer. This I suspect is partly due to Pellers playing a formation that no one foresaw and sticking to that formation bar one game. Pep has Bayern playing his way. Martinez has Everton playing his way. Jose is trying to do as he is told in not having Chelsea play his way (which is funny). So why isn't Pellers having City play his way? What is so fucking difficult about his system that after a full pre-season and what 17 competitive games?... we still pretty much play like we have for the last 2 seasons. Intricate passing around the box, Silva and Nasri coming in narrow and Yaya strolling imperiously around midfield. There are positives. Aguero has got his mojo back and is playing his best football. Ditto Silva. Nasri yes so far (still think he goes missing when it matters). Free kicks much better but corners still on a steady decline and the defence gone to shit. And I'm not even going to mention 'mentality'.

But back to the question I have asked before. Just what is the Pellers way and why is it proving so difficult for the players to comprehend when other teams with new managers either with better squads or worse squads are managing to implement their 'philosophies' with comparative success?

 

[porkchopsaplenty]

Re: Clueless manager

Can I ask a question, why the fuck are people complaining about Pellegrini for losing games like this when we've had the same underlying problem for nearly 5 years now.

We just can't break teams down that park the bus. We couldn't 4 years ago, we can't now. The Sunderland away fixture has been a fucking carbon copy three years running.

Our style of play and wastefulness is what is hurting us. The players have to take responsibility. Too much blame is thrown at the management. Both Mancini and Pellegrini have fielded teams more than capable of beating Sunderland away yet the players just haven't performed. It's their fault, nobody elses. A manager can prepare, pick a team, shape, tactics (we dominated them and never looked under that much pressure) but it's the players that can't beat the first man at corners, that waste clear chances, that choose the wrong pass or overhit it.

Fans are quick to jump on the manager and it's ridiculous, he can only do so much. Now he's being criticised for not playing Zabba. A fortnight ago people we're looking forward to Richards being back. He plays shit and suddenly its Pellegrini's fault for not playing Zabba. If Richards had scored the winner would he have been lamented for playing him over Zabba then? Of course he wouldn't.

I'm not defending Pellegrini, he didn't choose the team I would have but it doesn't matter a toss, he chose a team capable of beating Sunderland. The players didn't perform. Same at Cardiff & Villa.

The players are grown men that shouldn't need someone on the bench dictating their every move and making decisions for them, they are given a general plan and then have to perform. They haven't performed and that is it.
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This guy is completely right.

Mancini & Pellegrini are not faultless & make mistakes but for me at least 80% of the blame for last season & this lie with the players. Like he says the team he selected should not be getting beat by Sunderland.
So tired of hearing lazy clowns like Dzeko talking the talk but not walking the walk. For me Kolarov, Dzeko & Garcia are simply not good enough ability wise or attitude wise (amongst others as well in terms of attitude)

I was watching Everton play a few weeks ago V Chelsea (& i have said it b4 at times last season about City) & i said to my dad "watch how EVERY player hussles & harries Chelseas players, if City had their attitude we would win the league nearly every year, City have the ability BUT not the Heart for a fight"
Not being arrogant but this has been shown on numerous occasions this season.
It is frustrating because we all know how city can play- we see this home games every other week. For me they do not play the same away because too many players lack the right attitude & commitment.
IF Pellegrini is still here in Jan & June i think we will/should have a clear out of at least 5 players.
SO here is a message to ur beloved team> shut up & do your talking on the pitch!

 

[Anonymous]

Must admit, I initially thought you were saying you personally felt we'd downgraded in the Summer as well! Remember thinking I didn't really understand where you were coming from. I was too "involved" in the Dzeko thread to get involved here too though!

Haha yeah - seemed pretty obvious to me at the time but then I guess I knew what I was trying to say!

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

If you're talking about replacing players not replaced last season, yes, perhaps. Navas for Adam Johnson. Jovetic for Balotelli. That's fine, but then we cannot compare to last season's results. I'd be happy to say 11/12 is the benchmark to beat, we've got to improve from there. Otherwise, if we're comparing to last season undoubtedly this squad is better than last season's. In my opinion this squad is the best balanced squad we've had. We got pace on one of the wings. We have an aerial threat who is also a workhorse up front, and we've certainly got more quality long passes coming in from Fernandinho. Those all give us extra dimensions that we've not had before. If you don't agree that we've got a squad better than 11/12 (with Tevez missing for six months), ok, fair enough, matter of opinion, but there's no chance this squad isn't better than last season's.

I don't see it as an anomaly. We've talked about this before. I think the chances the opposition getting now are clearer cut, if you play a high line and use wing-backs there is more space and fewer players back to cover it. Ergo, we concede more.

It's pretty straight forward. Tevez, Balotelli, Barry, and Scott Sinclair out. Navas, Jovetic, Negredo, Fernandinho in.

In terms of the conclusion you draw regarding the goals we're conceding, although in theory it's true, in practice the majority of goals we've conceded have had everything to do with individual error rather than a high defensive line. That's why it's anomalous and that's why the shot we're conceding on our goal is relevant in terms of analysing what's going on and what's going wrong IMO.

the high line is a causal factor because there is no margin for error, so once there is an error because we have a high line we invariably get punished.

 

[Skashion]

What I meant by "were all classed as a downgrade" was that people on this forum, those same people unsurprisingly who are unprepared to give Pellegrini a fair shake, were unprepared to give our new signings a new chance. Hence names like Flopinho for Fernandinho, or the Spanish Grant Holt for Negredo. Hope that clears up why I wasn't by any stretch contradicting myself.

With respect to "stronger squad = better finish than last season" - that assumes everyone else stands still. Which they patently haven't. This season is comfortably the most competitive PL season I can remember. That's because it's much stronger than last season, or our title winning season. Therefore, yes we've improved the squad, but the idea that we will automatically collect more points than last season, or should collect more points that last season, is just dumb.

Hang on, how am I to know that's what you meant. More to the point, how can you tell me the money spent is a red herring (you said that to me), when I certainly never said the players are a downgrade. I was very happy with our transfer business in summer. Bought early, bought well, added balance. So you can't tell me the money is an irrelevance when I've always said the money spent improved our squad.

I'd disagree with you there. I think Chelsea have been poor. They haven't been playing well for the most part, glimpses of very good football but not consistent. Ditto the rags. The league hasn't suddenly gotten so competitive that the rags should have lost twice at home already. Only Liverpool and Arsenal have significantly improved for my money. Everyone else seems thrown off by the change in manager, not by the improvement of every other fucking team in the division. However, let's just say you're right, we outspent our rivals, so unless Txiki and Soriano didn't spend wisely - which I think they did, we should have improved our squad the most. May not work out exactly like that, but good rule of thumb is that if we've spent well and spent most, we should improve the most.

Well, you know me, I'm thick as fuck me. I prove that by talking to you when it is utterly pointless.