Discuss Pellegrini (Pt 3)

[OB1]

If you're talking about replacing players not replaced last season, yes, perhaps. Navas for Adam Johnson. Jovetic for Balotelli. That's fine, but then we cannot compare to last season's results. I'd be happy to say 11/12 is the benchmark to beat, we've got to improve from there. Otherwise, if we're comparing to last season undoubtedly this squad is better than last season's. In my opinion this squad is the best balanced squad we've had. We got pace on one of the wings. We have an aerial threat who is also a workhorse up front, and we've certainly got more quality long passes coming in from Fernandinho. Those all give us extra dimensions that we've not had before. If you don't agree that we've got a squad better than 11/12 (with Tevez missing for six months), ok, fair enough, matter of opinion, but there's no chance this squad isn't better than last season's.

I don't see it as an anomaly. We've talked about this before. I think the chances the opposition getting now are clearer cut, if you play a high line and use wing-backs there is more space and fewer players back to cover it. Ergo, we concede more.

It's pretty straight forward. Tevez, Balotelli, Barry, and Scott Sinclair out. Navas, Jovetic, Negredo, Fernandinho in.

In terms of the conclusion you draw regarding the goals we're conceding, although in theory it's true, in practice the majority of goals we've conceded have had everything to do with individual error rather than a high defensive line. That's why it's anomalous and that's why the shot we're conceding on our goal is relevant in terms of analysing what's going on and what's going wrong IMO.

Yes,the individual errors have resulted in clear cut goalscoring opportunities.A fair few of the goals conceded have come from us losing the ball in the opposition half and the opponents by passing our midfield with a punt forward.
If we are playing a high line we are going to be caught short.
The shots conceded stat is interesting,but you can also argue because we play more openly,our opponents can afford to wait for the better chances our system allows them.

The goals that we have conceded are not down to concede lots more clear cut chances. A quarter of the goals conceded should have been disallowed. I wouldn't catergorise the goals at Cardiff as more clear cut chances in the sense that I think you mean. The Villa free kick hardly counts as clear cut.

 

[mancity1]

Couldn't agree more and Billy I reckon you have a lot of explaining to do unless when you mean others haven't stood still you are referring to the Hulls Newcastles , Evertons and Southamptons of the league.

Arsenal, Spurs, Liverpool, Chelsea, Southampton, Swansea, and Everton are all stronger than last season. They are the teams who were immediately below us last season. Our squad is also stronger, I don't dispute that. But the overall competition in the league is reflected in the way the league table looks, and currently it looks wide open.

As I've said before I think whoever reaches 80 points this season will win the league.

Most think only one of Manure , Man City , Arsenal and Chelsea can win the title.

I am not sure if you include Liverpool or Spurs as title chances this year but taking them aside for the time being where do you think Manure ( who I think you didn't include because you don't think they have improved on or off field this season ) , Arsenal and Chelsea have improved their squads from last season to make them genuine title contenders this season and get that 80 points.?

Arsenal as I said have Ozil but to date no new blood that Chelsea have bought in has inspired me at all , its still the same old same old.

 

[Danamy]

But back to the question I have asked before. Just what is the Pellers way and why is it proving so difficult for the players to comprehend when other teams with new managers either with better squads or worse squads are managing to implement their 'philosophies' with comparative success?

This is the one thing that's bugging me about the whole set up, i have in fact answered that question in the past Bob but it obviously got lost in the abyss.

"The Pellers Way" with Malaga and Real the majority of his time was 4-2-3-1, when he's used it here has been effective, it's also (i believe) included our best performances.

I think he's tinkering too much reverting back to 4-4-2 when it's not needed, we have the players to play to his "preferred system" (4-2-3-1) so why change it?

It's starting to bug me as much as Mancini with his persistance with three at the back, why?

Pellegrini has to play Aguero - who is not suited to the lone striker role. He feels he can't depart from two up front even when the personnel to make it work aren't available or are outnumbered.

This:

.......................Hart.......................

Zabba.......Kompany........Nasty..........Clichy

.............Yaya..............Dinho...........

....Nasri..............Aguero...............Silva.....

.......................Negredo.......................

 

[Anonymous]

Most think only one of Manure , Man City , Arsenal and Chelsea can win the title.

I am not sure if you include Liverpool or Spurs as title chances this year but taking them aside for the time being where do you think Manure ( who I think you didn't include because you don't think they have improved on or off field this season ) , Arsenal and Chelsea have improved their squads from last season to make them genuine title contenders this season and get that 80 points.?

Arsenal as I said have Ozil but to date no new blood that Chelsea have bought in has inspired me at all , its still the same old same old.

My point, which I didn't think was that difficult to understand, was that all the teams immediately below us have improved over the summer. This has made the league more competitive because we have a greater number of good teams capable of beating anyone than we did last season. This improvement has meant that the traditional top 3 are likely to drop more points than normal as the challenge they face outside of each other is greater than normal. It also means that the competition for the CL places will be much greater than it was last season.

Clearly there's those who don't agree which of course they're entitled to. However my point regarding how tight the top of the table is does tend to lend itself to the idea that the league overall is tougher than in previous seasons.

 

[BobKowalski]

If you're talking about replacing players not replaced last season, yes, perhaps. Navas for Adam Johnson. Jovetic for Balotelli. That's fine, but then we cannot compare to last season's results. I'd be happy to say 11/12 is the benchmark to beat, we've got to improve from there. Otherwise, if we're comparing to last season undoubtedly this squad is better than last season's. In my opinion this squad is the best balanced squad we've had. We got pace on one of the wings. We have an aerial threat who is also a workhorse up front, and we've certainly got more quality long passes coming in from Fernandinho. Those all give us extra dimensions that we've not had before. If you don't agree that we've got a squad better than 11/12 (with Tevez missing for six months), ok, fair enough, matter of opinion, but there's no chance this squad isn't better than last season's.

I don't see it as an anomaly. We've talked about this before. I think the chances the opposition getting now are clearer cut, if you play a high line and use wing-backs there is more space and less players back to cover it. Ergo, we concede more.

But back to the question I have asked before. Just what is the Pellers way and why is it proving so difficult for the players to comprehend when other teams with new managers either with better squads or worse squads are managing to implement their 'philosophies' with comparative success?

This is the one thing that's bugging me about the whole set up, i have in fact answered that question in the past Bob but it obviously got lost in the abyss.

"The Pellers Way" with Malaga and Real the majority of his time was 4-2-3-1, when he's used it here has been effective, it's also (i believe) included our best performances.

I think he's tinkering too much reverting back to 4-4-2 when it's not needed, we have the players to play to his "preferred system" (4-2-3-1) so why change it?

It's starting to bug me as much as Mancini with his persistance with three at the back, why?

Sorry I missed your answers but thanks for that. I'm not big on tactical analysis or formations but I share your puzzlement. Its like having a huge build up with fanfare and when its unveiled you sort of go "Yeah. And?"

I do get the feeling that I was being media managed with the whole 'brand of football you have never witnessed before'. I've doled out enough bullshit in my time to know when its being handed on a plate to me with an invite to tuck in.

 

[mancity1]

What I meant by "were all classed as a downgrade" was that people on this forum, those same people unsurprisingly who are unprepared to give Pellegrini a fair shake, were unprepared to give our new signings a new chance. Hence names like Flopinho for Fernandinho, or the Spanish Grant Holt for Negredo. Hope that clears up why I wasn't by any stretch contradicting myself.

With respect to "stronger squad = better finish than last season" - that assumes everyone else stands still. Which they patently haven't. This season is comfortably the most competitive PL season I can remember. That's because it's much stronger than last season, or our title winning season. Therefore, yes we've improved the squad, but the idea that we will automatically collect more points than last season, or should collect more points that last season, is just dumb.

Is it "that" much stronger than last season, though?

Arsenal being the obvious exception, the likes of Chelsea & United have certainly failed to inspire so far this season.

Whichever way you look at it, and no matter how much you look at Arsenal/United/Chelsea/Spurs/Liverpool, they've had no effect on your results against Cardiff, Villa, Stoke & Sunderland.

I don't necessarily agree with those who say the Premier League is much harder this season. This season it needs one team to take the bull by the horns and go on a winning run, and you could quite easily build up a lead. Arsenal have done that so far, but whether it'll continue, who knows.

Chelsea & United have been distinctly average this season, so to find yourselves below them is not down to the league being harder to navigate than last season, but more down to your own performances.

It isn't stronger or the most competitive. ManU lost Taggart which weakened them plus the midfield is still average. Jose still doesn't fancy his squad and has no decent striker. Arsenal have improved but lack depth especially upfront. Liverpool are top 4 challengers at best and the Suarez issue still hanging over them. Spurs lost Bale and invested well but it will take time for it to bed and its a race between this happening and AVB reverting to his gibbering Chelsea days (my money is on AVB physically attacking a Spurs fan with a sawn off clipboard).

Everyone (bar Arsenal) is pretty much muddling around in a sea of mediocrity. We are have comfortably the best team and arguably the best squad in the PL. That we are not woman smacking the PL into submission is, putting it politely, mildly annoying.

Players mindset , the character of the players and dare I say it MP still finding his feet are some of the reasons.

They can all be changed for the better from within and from without.

Lets face this lot lacks a fair bit of bottle and invention when inferior opposition want to graft and press us a bit.

It was there for all to see on Sunday , we didn't know how to open up a defense that didn't want to come at us once they had the lead.

In saying that Poyet outsmarted MP to a tee.

We would have been better letting them come at us and getting them on the break ala West Brom with 10 men last season.

I can guarantee you that if the possession stats had been 65 v 35 the worst we would have done is lose 1-0.

We played a dumb game and MP has to take some of the blame for this.

Rather than shaking his head and wondering why we couldn't break them down he should have said ok we will give up possession and when they fuck up lets go at them and with Navas , Richards and co we were perfectly set up for this.

 

[BlueAnorak]

The best squad we've had? i'd probably agree.

However,that fact is largely irrelevant when half of it is unavailable.

Aguero and Kompany started less than two-thirds of our Premier League games last season through injury.

Yep,and last season was a cluster fuck.

This year we seem to have been hit even harder by the injury bug,the lack of form/loss of ability with some individuals is also a factor.

Goodness knows what this one is then.
2013-14 Pld11 W6 D1 L4 F28 A12 Home(W5 D0 L0 F20 A2) Away (W1 D1 L4 F8 A10) GD+16 Pts 19
compared with:
2012-13 Pld11 W7 D4 L0 F20 A10 Home(W5 D1 L0 F13 A5) Away(W2 D3 L0 F7 A5) GD+10 Pts 25

In short:
- Double the number of goals conceded both home and away -playing a defensive system that is guaranteed to fail. I said so early doors and I haven't seen ANYTHING to make me change my mind - QUITE the reverse actually.
- Scoring 1/3 more goals at home. Irrelevant to winning the title (though good viewing fayre at home).

And we haven't even got to the awful, chilly wet and windy Feb & March where foreign players don't play to their full potential.

We had as many injuries last season. I should also point out that - like Bob Paisly once said; " I'd rather be a lucky manager than one who isn't". Not only is Pellegrini inept he is unlucky as well.

Get rid. The sooner the better too, because he isn't going to be successful here.

 

[supercity88]

Everyone makes valid points. To me the Premiership has not got stronger and more competitive by any means. The Rags are weaker than last season because Fergiescum was the key ingredient. Chelsea have bought several players and most have not worked with Mourinho, they are under transition and you would expect them to be inconsistent so whilst Mourinho will improve things they are not the finished article by a long shot. Spuds have lost their star player, the reason they performed so well last season. Added to that they have bought a lot of new signings who lack Premiership experience. They will take time to gel and for me they are at a similar level to last season but looking ahead to next season or the one after, they will be stronger. Arsenal have been on a good run of form and have added a major talent in Ozil but we all are aware defensively and in attack they lack strength in depth and most would say they have improved but would not be a major threat for the title. Then you have Liverpool who again have gradually improved and are looking good but will fall short due to that lack of strength in depth.

I think had we stuck with Mancini we would have been in a better position this season domestically and would probably win the league. The Premiership has actually got more competitive because the top teams have dropped a level and the middle teams have stepped up. Had we have kept Mancini I do believe we would have stayed at a higher level.

Now before people jump on my back about that statement, I am looking at the short term situation and on a domestic level. I also believe had we kept Mancini we would have a squad that was largely unhappy and that we would struggle on the European front. I think Mancini would have struggled to improve the squad had we said no to Cavani like we did with Pellegrini, Mancini was a "my way or the highway" kind of operator and it was clear he was unwilling to look outside the box.

What we have done this season is made a change that will suit us for the long term. We will still be there or there abouts this season, we can still win the league and our away form will improve. We have made huge strides forward in Europe and we have played some excellent football. Defensively we are looking weak and we are not showing anywhere near the level of consistency required. However, we have a happier squad, the players seem to be liking life under the manager, Pellegrini handles the media perfectly and everything is done in house. He has taken us to the knock out stages for the first time in our history and he has the beginnings of a fantastic squad of players. He will work on things defensively and once he does we will be a major threat for years and years to come. Pellegrini has managed to implement a style and philosophy and will work under our new financial constraints. Like it or not the club had to adapt, by making it to the next stage of the Champions League we have stepped up a level and we will be able to sign top players without paying unsustainable wages. This summer we bought players on performance related pay and we have addressed what was an unsustainable business model. Mancini would not have liked this financial impact. We saw how he was when we failed to sign Van Persie, he put the title loss down to that. But that was an easy excuse, we still has Aguero, Tevez, Dzeko and Balotelli.

In terms of the bigger picture we have made a change for the better in my opinion, give Pellegrini time and I am fully confident he has the right mentality and characteristics to lead this club forward. As I mentioned earlier though, if we had have kept Mancini for this season I actually do think we would have been in a better position to win the league, but at the detriment to long term improvement and European improvement too.

 

[Danamy]

But back to the question I have asked before. Just what is the Pellers way and why is it proving so difficult for the players to comprehend when other teams with new managers either with better squads or worse squads are managing to implement their 'philosophies' with comparative success?

This is the one thing that's bugging me about the whole set up, i have in fact answered that question in the past Bob but it obviously got lost in the abyss.

"The Pellers Way" with Malaga and Real the majority of his time was 4-2-3-1, when he's used it here has been effective, it's also (i believe) included our best performances.

I think he's tinkering too much reverting back to 4-4-2 when it's not needed, we have the players to play to his "preferred system" (4-2-3-1) so why change it?

It's starting to bug me as much as Mancini with his persistance with three at the back, why?

Sorry I missed your answers but thanks for that. I'm not big on tactical analysis or formations but I share your puzzlement. Its like having a huge build up with fanfare and when its unveiled you sort of go "Yeah. And?"

I do get the feeling that I was being media managed with the whole 'brand of football you have never witnessed before'. I've doled out enough bullshit in my time to know when its being handed on a plate to me with an invite to tuck in.

When it clicks it clicks and we've seen glimpses of what we can do when that happens, it's getting the right balance and i think that's why he's tinkering.

I believe our best formation and performances have been when Negredo and Aguero interchange and drop deep with the three behind, West Ham's an example of this with the three behind being fluid.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

Is it "that" much stronger than last season, though?

Arsenal being the obvious exception, the likes of Chelsea & United have certainly failed to inspire so far this season.

Whichever way you look at it, and no matter how much you look at Arsenal/United/Chelsea/Spurs/Liverpool, they've had no effect on your results against Cardiff, Villa, Stoke & Sunderland.

I don't necessarily agree with those who say the Premier League is much harder this season. This season it needs one team to take the bull by the horns and go on a winning run, and you could quite easily build up a lead. Arsenal have done that so far, but whether it'll continue, who knows.

Chelsea & United have been distinctly average this season, so to find yourselves below them is not down to the league being harder to navigate than last season, but more down to your own performances.

It isn't stronger or the most competitive. ManU lost Taggart which weakened them plus the midfield is still average. Jose still doesn't fancy his squad and has no decent striker. Arsenal have improved but lack depth especially upfront. Liverpool are top 4 challengers at best and the Suarez issue still hanging over them. Spurs lost Bale and invested well but it will take time for it to bed and its a race between this happening and AVB reverting to his gibbering Chelsea days (my money is on AVB physically attacking a Spurs fan with a sawn off clipboard).

Everyone (bar Arsenal) is pretty much muddling around in a sea of mediocrity. We are have comfortably the best team and arguably the best squad in the PL. That we are not woman smacking the PL into submission is, putting it politely, mildly annoying.

Players mindset , the character of the players and dare I say it MP still finding his feet are some of the reasons.

They can all be changed for the better from within and from without.

Lets face this lot lacks a fair bit of bottle and invention when inferior opposition want to graft and press us a bit.

It was there for all to see on Sunday , we didn't know how to open up a defense that didn't want to come at us once they had the lead.

In saying that Poyet outsmarted MP to a tee.

We would have been better letting them come at us and getting them on the break ala West Brom with 10 men last season.

I can guarantee you that if the possession stats had been 65 v 35 the worst we would have done is lose 1-0.

We played a dumb game and MP has to take some of the blame for this.

Rather than shaking his head and wondering why we couldn't break them down he should have said ok we will give up possession and when they fuck up lets go at them and with Navas , Richards and co we were perfectly set up for this.

Reminded me of Moyes's cock-up in the derby even though on that day it was because he matched up that cost him, whereas it was Pelle's failure to that cost him.

Like I said there were occassions in the first half on saturday where there were 4 Sunderland players with only Yaya anywhere near them. There were gaping holes for Fletcher to exploit.

Poyet used tactical nous, Pelle gave him every opportunity a bottom of the table manager with a bobbins team needed.