Discuss Pellegrini (Pt 3)

[FantasyIreland]

Indeed,he'd have made an excellent Italian tank commander.

 

[greasedupdeafguy]

Pellegrini is an intelligent and thoughtful man and he knows exactly what he wants from his teams. He doesn't get involved in the game to the extent Mourinho does, which is down right disrespectful and idiotic at times. Sliding on his knees etc, he is the manager and not a player. Pellegrini is held in high regard by his colleagues, by players and by those that know him. The media in this country has not been massively negative about him, they have questioned his lack of experience in the league etc and they question his rotation claiming he hasn't realised this is such a tough league etc. That is not true. Being a good manager requires knowledge of football and of what you want from a team, and ability to manage players and situations. He is methodical, intelligent and has an engineering degree. Therefore he is a problem solver. Whilst not related to football, for me it is evidence that he will solve the issues that have arisen so far. Given time he will make City a fantastic side that can challenge both domestically and in Europe. Mourinho has a life cycle at a club, he buys as many players and he can wins a few trophies and then leaves the club behind to struggle with the factions he has created. He does take pressure off his players at times, as Mancini did at the end of the title winning season. But he also is critical and not afraid to step on toes, give it a couple of years and yet again he will leave Chelsea in a horrible state of affairs.

What Pellegrini will do is implement a philosophy and model that is exactly how Fergiescum conducted things at the swamp. We are City, this is how we play, this is what we are about. The model that Guardiola takes wherever he goes and the type of thing Txiki and Sorriano see as key. We can change players and the system and the philosophy will remain. We will have a squad that can play all the required parts to make the system work. He has proven that this works both on paper and in practice. He took a Malaga side far below our City team in terms of talent, to the brink of the semi finals. They knew their roles and had faith in the system. It was adapted home and away and it worked. He has better players here at City, when the players learn the system and mistakes are eradicated as I have mentioned before then it will work. It is the perfect football philosophy and he is a methodical man. He gives players time and keeps the faith. He motivates them and lets them know they will get an opportunity. If they mess up he offers support but if he continues to mess up he will give them a kick up the arse and tell them they need to go away and improve.

The key to management is to improve productivity and get results. Don't tell someone they are shit. Tell them that what they did was shit considering how much talent they have and how good they normally are. Give them a boost despite being negative. Everything I have seen from Pellegrini has been positive. The Bayern game was the only match we were completely destroyed in. Cant complain too much considering Barca were beaten 3-0 and 4-0 by that side. Comments from Baines after the Everton win alluded to the fact we were well rehearsed and playing to counter their weaknesses. It worked. And that is a tactically strong side under a brilliant young manager.

Things will improve. We will be in the mix for the title and we will qualify from our champions league group and who knows what could happen. Pellegrini is most certainly the man to take us to where we want to be.

brilliant post

 

[Exeter Blue I am here]

And the result that night was?
Oh blow me down with a feather it was 1-1
It's about results fella and nothing but results.

Curious, I thought when you claimed we had the best defence in Europe, the inference was that teams were unable to ever circumvent the impenetrable sky blue wall, and the fact that the opposition might have been unfeasibly profligate in front of goal having cut through us, would have been disregarded as the irrelevance that it is. Still never mind, eh, perhaps you could account for Southampton, Everton, Spurs, Wigan, Norwich etc etc instead.......

Norwich I blame Kiddo...

I am still amused by the way people bring up the same games where we stunk the place out either defensively or collectively under Mancini. The inference being, especially with the 'etc, etc', is that it happened every other week instead of over a two year period (if you want to make it three you can chuck in Liverpool away). Perhaps I should start referencing Pellers defensive record in a similar manner 'Cardiff, Villa, Bayern, Chelsea etc etc'. The irony is that it is nigh on every other week under Pellers.

I know in an effort to make the current incumbent look good it does involve a copious amount of shitting on the last 3 years but there is little to no milage in attacking Mancini on his defensive record. No one denies that we didn't have bad days defensively but they were the exception not the rule. Live with it. Accept it. Then let it go. You will feel better for it.

[Sigh] I was responding to an outlandish claim that we had the best defence in Europe, and put forth several examples to demonstrate that this was wishful thinking. What we had was a very good defence in domestic terms, but in truth one that often didn't have a great deal to do thanks to Ya Ya, Spanish Dave, Tevez and Co monopolising the ball for long periods. When it did get put under pressure, usually via a high press, it frequently came apart at the seams. That isn't intended to denigrate anything Mancini did, nor big up anything Pellers does. A trawl through contemporary posts will show you that I was only (as I recall) about 60:40 in favour of sacking the former City manager, and that I have certainly no personal grudge against the man (as is the frequent allegation levelled at some other posters more staunchly in favour of change at the time). To be told to 'accept it' and 'let it go' on a thread stuffed with ex-Mancini inners (including the poster I was responding to) all seemingly desperate to nit pick over Pellegrini after just 9 games in charge, is ironic in the extreme......

 

[Didsbury Dave]

Let me know when you look like taking your own advice.

Personally I suspect 'moving on' means don't pick on Pellers or dwell on the fact that out of 9 PL games we have lost 3 of them. I would guarantee that if I had predicted at season start that this would be Pellers PL record on 29th Oct the amount of abuse, scoffing and derision about how little I know about football would have filled a book.

I could talk about Cardiff (again) and how significant the manner of that defeat was (again) but no I'll resist temptation for it be the sin of all fucking sins to be a total smarty pants.

Instead I shall proffer the hand of forgiveness so please all join me...

"Kumbaya my lord, Kumbaya
Kumbaya my lord, Kumbaya
O Lord Kumbaya"

#holistic

But you don't know anything about football. You cover it by being silly and you've ended up as the pin-up boy the forum know-nowts who believed your raucous laughter last season at the merest notion of a change of manager.

You were telling us all a week or two ago that Pellegrini was being forced to use the same formation week in week out by our Director of Football, too.

I noticed you've quietly dropped that beauty too. ;-)

You mean have I amended my views based on Pellers embracing the dark side namely pragmatism in the last 2 Pl matches? Well of course I have. If I posit a theory based on what I am seeing and then see a change in what I am seeing I am more than happy to change my view. It does beg the question why it took him so long or what possessed him in the Bayern match but better late than never. Equally it doesn't change the fact that Ferran and Txiki are determined to implement a City style of play and that our default position will be what we have seen most of the season especially as a blind man can see that our squad is structured on this basis. That Pellers has now shifted his stance to accommodate a more conservative, ie sensible, formation for big away matches is one I agree with.

Its called discussion, debate and discourse. Views are formulated and then reviewed and/or revised based on further events. Its a fairly adult concept and one you seem to struggle with. Name calling you have down pat so its not all bad news.

Good. In glad you've changed your views. I told you at the time that they were silly.

The problem with your comment that the manager has changed his stance on the formation for big away matches does pose the rather obvious question of which big away matches we had before Chelsea of course.

But you carry on being 'amused'. Most of the cheap seats are empty now but TGR is still around, so all is not lost.

 

[BobKowalski]

Curious, I thought when you claimed we had the best defence in Europe, the inference was that teams were unable to ever circumvent the impenetrable sky blue wall, and the fact that the opposition might have been unfeasibly profligate in front of goal having cut through us, would have been disregarded as the irrelevance that it is. Still never mind, eh, perhaps you could account for Southampton, Everton, Spurs, Wigan, Norwich etc etc instead.......

Norwich I blame Kiddo...

I am still amused by the way people bring up the same games where we stunk the place out either defensively or collectively under Mancini. The inference being, especially with the 'etc, etc', is that it happened every other week instead of over a two year period (if you want to make it three you can chuck in Liverpool away). Perhaps I should start referencing Pellers defensive record in a similar manner 'Cardiff, Villa, Bayern, Chelsea etc etc'. The irony is that it is nigh on every other week under Pellers.

I know in an effort to make the current incumbent look good it does involve a copious amount of shitting on the last 3 years but there is little to no milage in attacking Mancini on his defensive record. No one denies that we didn't have bad days defensively but they were the exception not the rule. Live with it. Accept it. Then let it go. You will feel better for it.

[Sigh] I was responding to an outlandish claim that we had the best defence in Europe, and put forth several examples to demonstrate that this was wishful thinking. What we had was a very good defence in domestic terms, but in truth one that often didn't have a great deal to do thanks to Ya Ya, Spanish Dave, Tevez and Co monopolising the ball for long periods. When it did get put under pressure, usually via a high press, it frequently came apart at the seams. That isn't intended to denigrate anything Mancini did, nor big up anything Pellers does. A trawl through contemporary posts will show you that I was only (as I recall) about 60:40 in favour of sacking the former City manager, and that I have certainly no personal grudge against the man (as is the frequent allegation levelled at some other posters more staunchly in favour of change at the time). To be told to 'accept it' and 'let it go' on a thread stuffed with ex-Mancini inners (including the poster I was responding to) all seemingly desperate to nit pick over Pellegrini after just 9 games in charge, is ironic in the extreme......

Frequently? Christ if the past 3 years was spent frequently coming apart at the seams then its a pandemic of seam popping this season...and how are we desperately nit picking after 9 games? Are we top and I missed it? Have we won all 9 games and romping away with the title? Are people still in tears of joy about how liberated the players are as they revel in the freedom to....allow the opposition to tap the ball in to an empty net not once but twice in the same game?

Losing 1 game early on is unfortunate. Losing 2 is careless. Losing 3 is just taking the piss.

I get that people are painting a positive picture and its a nice picture. Its got flowers, cherubs and lambkins and everything. But when the most dangerous thing the opposition can do is lump an aimless ball forward and watch mayhem and panic unfold people are going to be a tad nit-picky. On the bright side if it was the previous incumbent as opposed to the current incumbent this forum would have melted into a puddle on Ric's living room floor. In that respect nit-picky is a major fucking progress.

 

[BluessinceHydeRoad]

Many, if not most, supporters were prepared to give Pellegrini "time", but the situation is now beginning to cause concern. The mantra was that after ten games the class would show, and City would be up there with Chelsea. On Sky they still maintained that these were the two best teams in the PL. But City are not "up there",we are actually back in seventh, and this is nowhere near what was expected after 9 games.

We have given some good performances, it's hard to say we haven't played very well at times and the new signings have looked good and are getting better, but not only have we not won enough matches, we have lost too many. If draws were the curse of last season... And there's no sign any of our problems are getting any better. We can say that we lost to Chelsea, a top team with a top manager, and that few teams will leave SB unbeaten. We can say it was a stupid error that cost us a point, but this does not change the fact that we lost a match should at least have drawn. Champions "win ugly": we are losing while playing well! And not for the first time. And the manner of the defeat is becoming depressingly familiar. On Sunday a hacked clearance straight down the middle provoked an act of madness from Joe Hart. Against Villa a punt down the middle provoked incompetence from Vinnie and Nastasic and madness from Joe. In Moscow a long high ball caused panic and incompetence, Joe charged out and Tosic scored with a lob! In Cardiff any high ball into our box caused trouble and a lad 5' 8" tall scored with two headers. Fairly poor crosses brought Chelsea three wasted chances on Sunday, as our back four stood arms in air Arsenal style appealing for an offside that never was. We can analyse every game we have played this season and say that our defence is poor. "Pellegrini let down by his players" is the claim. Yes, but which player in our defence has not let him down? And more than once? And why do all five look pale shadows of the players they were last season? They look as though they don't trust each other, and they don't know what the others are doing or what the others should be doing. They are a disorganised rabble at times. Some of that is because we haven't had a settled back four. Only in part is this due to injury. At times it is down to the manager's choice. But whoever plays there is a lack of organisation which is down to a lack of adequate coaching, and a failure to get across to the players what they are expected to do. Even Vinnie has looked uncertain and plain poor at times this season.

It is no good consoling ourselves that we play attractive football and score goals. Those are not the ambitions of a manager of the most expensive squad in the Pl. He has to do that of course - but he has to beat the Cardiffs and Villas of this world, and not see draws at Chelsea thrown away.

You don't think that making changes to our approach to defending and being blighted by injuries to defenders might make it difficult to get the level of defensive organisation and performance that we are ultimately aiming for? You have just highlighted a number of errors; many of which are not necessarily systematic ones. The system will though go wrong, more so when it is being implemented. Furthermore, the higher line and more aggressive use of the offside trap, mean that when it goes wrong it will look bad; just like it looks particularly horrible when you get zonal marking at a corner wrong.

I'll reiterate that City are actually conceding less shots per game than any other team in the division. Unfortunately we are allowing an abnormally high conversion rate from those shots and I put that down to the level of errors that players are making; not the system of play that Pellegrini is trying to install.

Pellegrini was not employed to replicate Mancini's approach and if some of the players that he inherits are not up to the job of playing Pellegrini's way , which may be part of the problem, they will have to be changed. At the moment, it is not entirely clear how much is down, to poor form, inability to adapt, an abnormal cluster of fuck-ups or what. That is why the manager needs to be given time.

Pellegrini is the manager and he has the responsibility of deciding the approach of the team to defending our goal. I don't dispute that because I have no use for a manager who doesn't manage! My concern is that he doesn't seem to be succeeding in his quest to get them to apply his principles successfully. Is he being helped by losing players to injury? Of course not! I assume his preferred CB partnership is Kompany and Nastasic and I think these two have only managed two full games this season - United at home and Villa away. Nastasic missed the first two games and Vinnie has, so far, misses 5 PL matches and gone off injured in 2 others. Last season we were heavily dependent on Vinny, and this gives support to your view. BUT, after a display against United which, rightly had us all drooling, he and Nastasic conspired with Joe Hart to commit such a basic series of blunders which cost us the match. I do not think that injuries, even to such key personnel are the complete answer to our problems.

Nastasic has been available for all but the first two PL games. He did not start against Everton because Lescott was considered more suited for the physical Lukaku. But we pretty soon saw Lescott caught out by a simple high ball, trying to play the offside game while the rest of the defence fell back: 1-0 to Everton. Apart from that game, and the two Nasti missed, the left side CB has not been a problem, but the right side, with both Vinnie and Dimichaelis out, has. Pellegrini's answer has been Javi Garcia, not a CB at all, but a DM. This to my mind was a grave mistake and is coupled with his decision to "rotate" the fullbacks at times. Coping with injuries is one thing, learning a new defensive system is another, and changing personnel when you have the choice is quite another. The result is that we defend a high line and play offside, but can't do it anything like effectively because the players don't know each other well enough and, apparently, no longer trust each other. Morale amongst some of those defenders looks pretty low and it's not hard to see why. And these are not bad defenders, as some on here claim. I think injuries and the demands of a new system are certainly making things much more difficult, but the manager is not making them any easier.

The opinion on here appears to be that, as one poster said, that our position is no cause for concern - 6 points adrift and 29 to play. I hope that's right. But it assumes improvement quickly enough to make up the gap whereas at the moment we're still dropping points we shouldn't and there's little sign the we are not going to keep on repeating these mistakes. Those defenders need much more coaching - all of them.

 

[BobKowalski]

But you don't know anything about football. You cover it by being silly and you've ended up as the pin-up boy the forum know-nowts who believed your raucous laughter last season at the merest notion of a change of manager.

You were telling us all a week or two ago that Pellegrini was being forced to use the same formation week in week out by our Director of Football, too.

I noticed you've quietly dropped that beauty too. ;-)

You mean have I amended my views based on Pellers embracing the dark side namely pragmatism in the last 2 Pl matches? Well of course I have. If I posit a theory based on what I am seeing and then see a change in what I am seeing I am more than happy to change my view. It does beg the question why it took him so long or what possessed him in the Bayern match but better late than never. Equally it doesn't change the fact that Ferran and Txiki are determined to implement a City style of play and that our default position will be what we have seen most of the season especially as a blind man can see that our squad is structured on this basis. That Pellers has now shifted his stance to accommodate a more conservative, ie sensible, formation for big away matches is one I agree with.

Its called discussion, debate and discourse. Views are formulated and then reviewed and/or revised based on further events. Its a fairly adult concept and one you seem to struggle with. Name calling you have down pat so its not all bad news.

Good. In glad you've changed your views. I told you at the time that they were silly.

The problem with your comment that the manager has changed his stance on the formation for big away matches does pose the rather obvious question of which big away matches we had before Chelsea of course.

But you carry on being 'amused'. Most of the cheap seats are empty now but TGR is still around, so all is not lost.

Well going by results Cardiff and Villa. And Bayern. We will always have Bayern. They bleeding well owned us that night so it felt like away.

And I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Ferran and his goal of a 'City style of play' irrespective of the opposition. You need to have more faith in our CEO.

 

[franksinatra]

More hearsay and speculation.

Neither heresy nor speculation anymore mate. The papers were full of how much Mancini was loathed after he was sacked. Only a fool would currently try and argue that there was no problem between him and the players last season.

I make my judgements based on what I see on the pitch. I was reliably informed Jo Harts form would improve now Manicni has left on this forum. How is that working out?

Well, all I can say is that whilst Joe's form has continued to be poor, players like Nasri and Kolarov are playing out of their skins, Yaya, Aguero and Silva are showing form they've not shown since 2011, and generally we look for the first time in well over a year like a team going in the right direction and pulling in the same direction.

Sergio Aguero said there was no problem, I am happy with that.

As I say above, whether you choose to accept the facts or not, the facts are Mancini's relationship with his squad of players killed his chances of keeping his job last summer. Not our forwards not scoring which you said was the "only" problem we had last season.

No what is hearsay and speculation is your ridiculous claim that Mancini had "mentally checked out of the club already". Just another attempt at mud slinging or do we have some evidence that Mancini had "mentally checked out" ?. I doubt even his closest colleagues would know that with any certainty and knowing Mancinis character and the type of player he was I found that an extraordinary claim.

Players form varies over the course of a season like at any club. For improvements in some players see the worsening forms of the likes of Hart, Clichy, Nastasic etc. It would be ridiculous to blame this on Pellegrini at this stage, as it would be to laud Pellegrini for an improvement in the form of others. When you have a balanced opinion this would be quite explanatory but when you are desperate for evidence of improvement and a desire to besmirch the previous incumbent , particularly when we lie seventh, I understand you have to grab onto any crumbs of comfort.

No billy what I actually said was "Last season the big issue was the form of the strikers. We regularly created chances but the finishing was poor" and this was in response to a debate about the team giving the opposition a hammering. I never said "Only" and this statement was not in relation to all aspects of the season, just why we did not hammer teams more frequently. Again you have chosen to misquote to give your point more validity.

 

[OB1]

You mean have I amended my views based on Pellers embracing the dark side namely pragmatism in the last 2 Pl matches? Well of course I have. If I posit a theory based on what I am seeing and then see a change in what I am seeing I am more than happy to change my view. It does beg the question why it took him so long or what possessed him in the Bayern match but better late than never. Equally it doesn't change the fact that Ferran and Txiki are determined to implement a City style of play and that our default position will be what we have seen most of the season especially as a blind man can see that our squad is structured on this basis. That Pellers has now shifted his stance to accommodate a more conservative, ie sensible, formation for big away matches is one I agree with.

Its called discussion, debate and discourse. Views are formulated and then reviewed and/or revised based on further events. Its a fairly adult concept and one you seem to struggle with. Name calling you have down pat so its not all bad news.

Where you honestly surprised that Pellegrini is prepared to be more pragmatic when he thinks it is warranted?

 

[OB1]

I assume his preferred CB partnership is Kompany and Nastasic and I think these two have only managed two full games this season

Well, let’s see if he starts playing Kompany and Demichelis before assuming too much.

Last season we were heavily dependent on Vinny, and this gives support to your view. BUT, after a display against United which, rightly had us all drooling, he and Nastasic conspired with Joe Hart to commit such a basic series of blunders which cost us the match. I do not think that injuries, even to such key personnel are the complete answer to our problems.

Do you think the system is to blame for basic blunders? As I keep saying, the system overall means we are allowing fewer shots at goal than any other team. Blunders like the ones that led to the final goals against Villa and Chelsea had nothing to do with a poor system or poor management: they were player error.

the left side CB has not been a problem, but the right side, with both Vinnie and Dimichaelis out, has. Pellegrini's answer has been Javi Garcia, not a CB at all, but a DM. This to my mind was a grave mistake

Because that was to blame for which defeats?

and is coupled with his decision to "rotate" the fullbacks at times.

Really not sure how much the rotation of the fullbacks has cost us; although there is a case for saying that Clichy has been picked too much.
The full backs in Pellegrini’s system have to do an awful lot of work and rotating them is part of good husbandry of the playing resources. Also, you have the Catch-22 situation that if you do not give everyone their turn, they can’t get used to playing the new system for real.