Discuss Pellegrini (Pt 4)

[blueinsa]

I'd disagree with that. They should have been down to 10 men and their goal was as the result of a foul. But even leaving that aside, we absolutely dominated that game after the goal. The BBC report talks about us being thwarted by a well-organised defence and exerting incessant pressure. The number of times bodies blocked goal-bound shots was into double figures.

Colin, your improvement was my confirmation of no improvement. As the Duke of Wellington once said: "They came on in the same old way and we defeated them in the same old way."

We really need to mix things up more. This was my problem with Mancini and it has not been addressed by Pellegrini away from home either.
- Better corners and set piece delivery from the flanks is required. Clearing the first man would be a start.
- More shots required from the edge of the box and further out.
- Run at the opposition more. Drive into the penalty area.
Continual play across the front of the opposition does not a parked bas move.

I saw against Spurs the way forward away from home: The brutal quick counter attack. we did it for half a season (2011-12 till Christmas) under Mancini then withdrew into our shells till the last 7 games. Against Spurs it was back with a vengence. We need to do this away from home. as the primary mode of attack. It they attack us we need to be absolutely brutal on the counter attack. It is the way Utd have won away from home in the Prem for the last 4 or 5 seasons - often when under the cosh. We need to learn the lesson.

You don't seem to take much account of the opposition in your simplistic analyses do you?! Revelling in oceans of counterattacking space is a bit difficult when our vastly superior ball retention (courtesy of fabulous players like Silva, Nasri, Ya Ya etc) usually means that we will enjoy 65% plus possession in the opposition half against even mid table teams, whilst teams at the bottom - of which Sunderland were a glorious case in point - will inevitably have neither the ambition nor the talent to venture further out than the edge of their own box. Poignant that you mention our title winning season, cos that's exactly what happened to us then. Before Christmas teams tried to take us on and we were able to cane them on the counter (1-5 at Spurs, 1-6 at the Swamp etc); after it, bus parking became endemic (Everton 1-0, Sunderland 1-0, West Brom 0-0, even the decider against QPR nearly ended in tears etc) and we couldn't. Tottenham on Sunday, whilst monstrously cack in general terms, were still good enough to push forward and play right into our hands.
What would you have us do then when the opposition politely declines to make a game of it?

Excellent point and very true. That said, I criticised Bob and i will criticise us under Pellegrini in that we are just happy to play so slowly at times and we have to get used to injecting our own pace into the game for the full 90 mins.

As shit as some teams are, this is the PL and 10 behind the ball is always going to be tough to crack but if we ping it about and use our movement and pace, we will crack it more often than not.

Slow, slow, slow will not get the job done.

 

[berniethebusman]

I'd disagree with that. They should have been down to 10 men and their goal was as the result of a foul. But even leaving that aside, we absolutely dominated that game after the goal. The BBC report talks about us being thwarted by a well-organised defence and exerting incessant pressure. The number of times bodies blocked goal-bound shots was into double figures.

Colin, your improvement was my confirmation of no improvement. As the Duke of Wellington once said: "They came on in the same old way and we defeated them in the same old way."

We really need to mix things up more. This was my problem with Mancini and it has not been addressed by Pellegrini away from home either.
- Better corners and set piece delivery from the flanks is required. Clearing the first man would be a start.
- More shots required from the edge of the box and further out.
- Run at the opposition more. Drive into the penalty area.
Continual play across the front of the opposition does not a parked bas move.

I saw against Spurs the way forward away from home: The brutal quick counter attack. we did it for half a season (2011-12 till Christmas) under Mancini then withdrew into our shells till the last 7 games. Against Spurs it was back with a vengence. We need to do this away from home. as the primary mode of attack. It they attack us we need to be absolutely brutal on the counter attack. It is the way Utd have won away from home in the Prem for the last 4 or 5 seasons - often when under the cosh. We need to learn the lesson.

You don't seem to take much account of the opposition in your simplistic analyses do you?! Revelling in oceans of counterattacking space is a bit difficult when our vastly superior ball retention (courtesy of fabulous players like Silva, Nasri, Ya Ya etc) usually means that we will enjoy 65% plus possession in the opposition half against even mid table teams, whilst teams at the bottom - of which Sunderland were a glorious case in point - will inevitably have neither the ambition nor the talent to venture further out than the edge of their own box. Poignant that you mention our title winning season, cos that's exactly what happened to us then. Before Christmas teams tried to take us on and we were able to cane them on the counter (1-5 at Spurs, 1-6 at the Swamp etc); after it, bus parking became endemic (Everton 1-0, Sunderland 1-0, West Brom 0-0, even the decider against QPR nearly ended in tears etc) and we couldn't. Tottenham on Sunday, whilst monstrously cack in general terms, were still good enough to push forward and play right into our hands.
What would you have us do then when the opposition politely declines to make a game of it?

Think some of his earlier points for a start, which I couldn't agree mire with.

 

[Didsbury Dave]

You don't seem to take much account of the opposition in your simplistic analyses do you?! Revelling in oceans of counterattacking space is a bit difficult when our vastly superior ball retention (courtesy of fabulous players like Silva, Nasri, Ya Ya etc) usually means that we will enjoy 65% plus possession in the opposition half against even mid table teams, whilst teams at the bottom - of which Sunderland were a glorious case in point - will inevitably have neither the ambition nor the talent to venture further out than the edge of their own box. Poignant that you mention our title winning season, cos that's exactly what happened to us then. Before Christmas teams tried to take us on and we were able to cane them on the counter (1-5 at Spurs, 1-6 at the Swamp etc); after it, bus parking became endemic (Everton 1-0, Sunderland 1-0, West Brom 0-0, even the decider against QPR nearly ended in tears etc) and we couldn't. Tottenham on Sunday, whilst monstrously cack in general terms, were still good enough to push forward and play right into our hands.
What would you have us do then when the opposition politely declines to make a game of it?

Some of you should take note of what EB posts because he understands his football.

We did not play "on the break" against Spurs. We did not "park the bus". Spurs attacked us and pushed on a winger. And for 25 minutes we kept giving them the ball back. The more we got ahead, the more desperate they got and the less we needed to go bombing them. So that's how the game panned out. There was nothing tactical about it. We played in exactly the same way as all of our other home games tactically.

 

[berniethebusman]

You don't seem to take much account of the opposition in your simplistic analyses do you?! Revelling in oceans of counterattacking space is a bit difficult when our vastly superior ball retention (courtesy of fabulous players like Silva, Nasri, Ya Ya etc) usually means that we will enjoy 65% plus possession in the opposition half against even mid table teams, whilst teams at the bottom - of which Sunderland were a glorious case in point - will inevitably have neither the ambition nor the talent to venture further out than the edge of their own box. Poignant that you mention our title winning season, cos that's exactly what happened to us then. Before Christmas teams tried to take us on and we were able to cane them on the counter (1-5 at Spurs, 1-6 at the Swamp etc); after it, bus parking became endemic (Everton 1-0, Sunderland 1-0, West Brom 0-0, even the decider against QPR nearly ended in tears etc) and we couldn't. Tottenham on Sunday, whilst monstrously cack in general terms, were still good enough to push forward and play right into our hands.
What would you have us do then when the opposition politely declines to make a game of it?

Some of you should take note of what EB posts because he understands his football.

We did not play "on the break" against Spurs. We did not "park the bus". Spurs attacked us and pushed on a winger. And for 25 minutes we kept giving them the ball back. The more we got ahead, the more desperate they got and the less we needed to go bombing them. So that's how the game panned out. There was nothing tactical about it. We played in exactly the same way as all of our other home games tactically.

I agree at the same time I think the game panned out exactly like what Pellers would have expected, not including the actual scoreline.

 

[cleavers]

I agree at the same time I think the game panned out exactly like what Pellers would have expected, not including the actual scoreline.

The single most important thing that happened against Spurs was the goal after 15 seconds, it changed what Spurs had to do, they had to score to be level, their game plan was effectively 10 men behind the ball, and it had failed after 15 seconds. This made our game plan much easier, and we weren't at our best for about 25 minutes after that, but we defended well, and once we'd scored the second the game was effectively over, because Spurs rarely score twice, never mind three times.

 

[Anonymous]

What would you have us do then when the opposition politely declines to make a game of it?

It's a proper head scratcher as to why anyone thinks that just because we decline the opportunity to play with a high defensive line and push our full backs forward this will automatically equate to the opposition giving us room and space to exploit in their half of the field.

In fact overall everyone who's advocating a more cautious or defensive approach against any one but the top teams in the world is kidding themselves and not paying attention to what Pellegrini's been saying. We're an attacking side, and as such we will always begin games on the front foot and only attempt to close out games in which there is a genuine risk posed by the quality in the opposition ranks (as in against Chelsea), or when there are injuries to our own key players making us more vulnerable than normal.

Otherwise as much as its a cliche the only tactic which will matter is the attacking one.

 

[inchy14]

I'd disagree with that. They should have been down to 10 men and their goal was as the result of a foul. But even leaving that aside, we absolutely dominated that game after the goal. The BBC report talks about us being thwarted by a well-organised defence and exerting incessant pressure. The number of times bodies blocked goal-bound shots was into double figures.

Colin, your improvement was my confirmation of no improvement. As the Duke of Wellington once said: "They came on in the same old way and we defeated them in the same old way."

We really need to mix things up more. This was my problem with Mancini and it has not been addressed by Pellegrini away from home either.
- Better corners and set piece delivery from the flanks is required. Clearing the first man would be a start.
- More shots required from the edge of the box and further out.
- Run at the opposition more. Drive into the penalty area.
Continual play across the front of the opposition does not a parked bas move.

I saw against Spurs the way forward away from home: The brutal quick counter attack. we did it for half a season (2011-12 till Christmas) under Mancini then withdrew into our shells till the last 7 games. Against Spurs it was back with a vengence. We need to do this away from home. as the primary mode of attack. It they attack us we need to be absolutely brutal on the counter attack. It is the way Utd have won away from home in the Prem for the last 4 or 5 seasons - often when under the cosh. We need to learn the lesson.

You don't seem to take much account of the opposition in your simplistic analyses do you?! Revelling in oceans of counterattacking space is a bit difficult when our vastly superior ball retention (courtesy of fabulous players like Silva, Nasri, Ya Ya etc) usually means that we will enjoy 65% plus possession in the opposition half against even mid table teams, whilst teams at the bottom - of which Sunderland were a glorious case in point - will inevitably have neither the ambition nor the talent to venture further out than the edge of their own box. Poignant that you mention our title winning season, cos that's exactly what happened to us then. Before Christmas teams tried to take us on and we were able to cane them on the counter (1-5 at Spurs, 1-6 at the Swamp etc); after it, bus parking became endemic (Everton 1-0, Sunderland 1-0, West Brom 0-0, even the decider against QPR nearly ended in tears etc) and we couldn't. Tottenham on Sunday, whilst monstrously cack in general terms, were still good enough to push forward and play right into our hands.
What would you have us do then when the opposition politely declines to make a game of it?

Away from home he needs to keep playing Dzeko, Garcia, Lescott and Milner then as the opposition will end up with plenty of possession.... :0)

 

[Cobwebcat]

I know what people mean and that if we can get the lead we can play counter attack and get huge score lines but if this were entirely true why have we one of the worst records when it comes to holding onto a lead?

 

[Anonymous]

I know what people mean and that if we can get the lead we can play counter attack and get huge score lines but if this were entirely true why have we one of the worst records when it comes to holding onto a lead?

Wouldn't this record be just as anomalous as our away form in general when you take into account the other statistics from those games ?

 

[mad zab]

You don't seem to take much account of the opposition in your simplistic analyses do you?! Revelling in oceans of counterattacking space is a bit difficult when our vastly superior ball retention (courtesy of fabulous players like Silva, Nasri, Ya Ya etc) usually means that we will enjoy 65% plus possession in the opposition half against even mid table teams, whilst teams at the bottom - of which Sunderland were a glorious case in point - will inevitably have neither the ambition nor the talent to venture further out than the edge of their own box. Poignant that you mention our title winning season, cos that's exactly what happened to us then. Before Christmas teams tried to take us on and we were able to cane them on the counter (1-5 at Spurs, 1-6 at the Swamp etc); after it, bus parking became endemic (Everton 1-0, Sunderland 1-0, West Brom 0-0, even the decider against QPR nearly ended in tears etc) and we couldn't. Tottenham on Sunday, whilst monstrously cack in general terms, were still good enough to push forward and play right into our hands.
What would you have us do then when the opposition politely declines to make a game of it?

Some of you should take note of what EB posts because he understands his football.

We did not play "on the break" against Spurs. We did not "park the bus". Spurs attacked us and pushed on a winger. And for 25 minutes we kept giving them the ball back. The more we got ahead, the more desperate they got and the less we needed to go bombing them. So that's how the game panned out. There was nothing tactical about it. We played in exactly the same way as all of our other home games tactically.

I wouldn't say we played on the break. However, we were making sure we didn't get exposed, especially down the flanks. For me we were prepared to sit a little deeper than we normally do at home.

Whether this was by design or not, I believe it worked to our benefit, as they pushed their full backs forward, we were able to counter with good effect in the first half.

The second half we showed how superior we were, especially when they tried to match us up. Was no coincidence when they went back to a lone striker even though they were 5-0 down.