Discuss Pellegrini (Pt 4)

[Anonymous]

It's a good system you propose but I'd have Jovetic in the front 3 personally. Any way to have him Silva and Nasri on the pitch at once productively will be death by technique to the opposition.

Garcia (if Fernandinho is out)
Yaya Nasri
Silva Aguero Jovetic

Aye, Jovetic is the other player who can come in and play that way.

Death by technique should be the benchmark mate :)

 

[Didsbury Dave]

I think the key to the two man midfield is definitely Fernandinho and without him, as in against Sunderland, it's a problem. However in that situation, I would be loathed to see Garcia/Milner brought in. If we're going to play 433 when Fernandinho's out, then for my money it should be Yaya/Garcia (or Rodwell or Milner) plus Nasri making up the third midfield player and Navas and Silva paying either side of a lone striker. Thus you have the extra man in midfield but we're not sacrificing too much technical quality.

Personally Billy I would have Silva as the attacking midfielder and Nasri in the wide area.

Nasri's ball retention is better than Silva's IMO so that's why he'd get the nod. But really it's about the defensive phase of the game. When attacking, Silva/Nasri can naturally drift into each other's positions. But I reckon Nasri would do a better job defensively in the middle of the park than Silva would.

Well I'd go for:

.................................Miler/Garcia/Rodwell.........Fernandinho

............Silva................................Yaya.....................................Aguero

.................................................Negredo................................................

We certainly have plenty of options in this formation!

 

[Cobwebcat]

Upon occasion, his team may be forced to play that way and, even more rarely, he may send them out to do that but it is not going to be the usual way that he goes about things. It won't have been a revelation to him that it worked for us against Spurs and he won't be beyond parking the bus if we should visit the Nou Camp in the next stage of the UCL; I'd love to draw Barca just to see if he does.

It's funny, I had Tolmie on the phone an hour or so ago and we were discussing the same thing. There will definitely be occasions where we will need to be more defensive. But over the course of a season it will not be more than a dozen times out of 50 + games if you take into account cup competitions. The reality is that other than Chelsea away, there isn't a single other ground in the PL where I'd be changing from the way we've set up so far this season.

The CL is different. The other thing I said to Tolmie which is going to certainly upset Cobwebcat (sorry mate!) - is I'm convinced that away from home in the CL when we get to the knockout stages we'll see Garcia making up the extra man in midfield. But again it's about the opposition. It'll have to be a team like Bayern/Barca where he does that - and even then there's an argument to suggest you aren't going to match them in midfield so give up the advantage and play on the break. Just be far more effective and dynamic than we were against Bayern at home!

He's more at home in Europe than the Premiership but no I still wouldn't play him......Imagine him taking on Reus.If we need someone to do that role then I'd buy Lars Bender.

 

[Anonymous]

He's more at home in Europe than the Premiership but no I still wouldn't play him......Imagine him taking on Reus.If we need someone to do that role then I'd buy Lars Bender.

I'd like to think Rodwell is the long term solution to this problem. However if his injuries don't clear up or if the coaches see him as more of an attacking midfield player then I'm sure it'll get addressed in next summer. Can't see Javi not being pushed further down the pecking order after two more transfer windows.

Interestingly it's being reported Pellegrini has stated categorically City will sign no one in January.

 

[JoeMercer'sWay]

Chelsea away was the perfect setup for those type of games except Negredo for Nasri imo.

I think there's a bit too much of "it just happened" about us dropping deeper and then Garcia came on about sunday being banded about on here, I just think from the way the game was panning out that there was a deliberate nature to it and (well I hope at least) this is something Pelle has come up with to a) draw teams out a bit and b) be more solid at the back.

I guess it if can work in 4-4-2 then the beauty of it is it still looks like 4-4-2 at the opposition so it makes it look like they have more chance of breaking through it, I think we can start luring teams into a trap, especially away from home, that would be devastatingly effective. We can still do the onslaught in the first quarter to try and kill the game early, but then we all know if a team survives that they grow in confidence and have a good spell, if you can lure them up the pitch and pounce on them in that period at 0-0 where they've survived what they think is our best shot you can kill them on the break.

I'm not saying we set up tactically to play that way for 90 mins, but in periods of games where our attacking play isn't being rewarded or we look a bit shaky at the back, playing almost possum I think is a really clever way to kill smaller sides who both mentally, physically, technically and tactically aren't as good or as observant.

I don't think it was as accidental as a few are making out, there was a clear shift in approach after 5-0 and it was partly resting our stars but (well, at least for me to have some faith in him being adaptive tactically) I think it was also something that he was testing and that he had the opportunity to because of the situation in the game, and to be honest it makes the likes of Navas much more effective when they have 40 yards to run into rather than 5 that he did at Sunderland.

 

[Exeter Blue I am here]

The issue for me is when faced with the parked bus, we slow down to an absolute crawl. Far to easy for any professional side with a tad of organisation to then keep themselves in position and defend against us.

We have to inject pace and we have to have the fantastic movement and for me, the biggest thing is we have to have the width that a player like Navas provides because we will have to get in behind them.

The Rags have faced the exact same problem for years and they solved it by getting it wide and in behind and the sheer amount of goals they create that way proves it does work.

We just have to be able to adapt.

I've written at length on this subject before, and whilst I think you're right about how slowly we recycle the ball against a parked bus, getting the ball wide alone is not the answer. We knocked in no less than 50 crosses and corners at the Stadium of Light (stat courtesy of JMW on here), but about 47 of them were a) outswinging, and b) shite, and there was no-one in the box anyway. The rags speciality, and they must run endless drills on it at Carrington, is the whipped inswinger. Shrek and Crashley Young specialise in this coming in off the left flank, whilst The Rapist's corners are so vicious they're tantamount to shots. They aim for the centre of the 6 yard line, and everything is whipped in flat and fast at head height taking away all the defending team's natural advantages. Playing the percentage game further, the rags will have runners attack the front and near posts as well as the centre of the goal, to mop up anything that is marginally either underhit or overhit, and all they're looking to do is get the faintest nick on the ball to divert it over the line using its own momentum. It's served as a get out of jail card for them for years, and is so effective that even a circus dwarf like Evra managed to bag 5 headed goals from set pieces last season, and just for good measure he did it again on Sunday.
You also need to remember that the rags are a massive team physically. Popular myth may have it they're a great footballing team, but they ain't. They counter attack well with pace and width, but a large element of their usual game plan is long balls and set pieces. At the Etihad in September 8 of their 11 players were 6ft 2' or taller. Whilst the world is generally aware that Smalling is 6ft 5' Vidic 6ft 2' and Camelgob 6ft 3', people forget that Valencia, Wellshit, Carrick, Fletcher and the Rapist are all 6ft 2' as well.
I think our delivery has improved this season, but whereas even Rafael and Evra can put a cross on a sixpence, with the exception of Kolarov (and even he's hit and miss), our crossing is still amongst the least effective in the top flight

 

[Danamy]

The issue for me is when faced with the parked bus, we slow down to an absolute crawl. Far to easy for any professional side with a tad of organisation to then keep themselves in position and defend against us.

We have to inject pace and we have to have the fantastic movement and for me, the biggest thing is we have to have the width that a player like Navas provides because we will have to get in behind them.

The Rags have faced the exact same problem for years and they solved it by getting it wide and in behind and the sheer amount of goals they create that way proves it does work.

We just have to be able to adapt.

I've written at length on this subject before, and whilst I think you're right about how slowly we recycle the ball against a parked bus, getting the ball wide alone is not the answer. We knocked in no less than 50 crosses and corners at the Stadium of Light (stat courtesy of JMW on here), but about 47 of them were a) outswinging, and b) shite, and there was no-one in the box anyway. The rags speciality, and they must run endless drills on it at Carrington, is the whipped inswinger. Shrek and Crashley Young specialise in this coming in off the left flank, whilst The Rapist's corners are so vicious they're tantamount to shots. They aim for the centre of the 6 yard line, and everything is whipped in flat and fast at head height taking away all the defending team's natural advantages. Playing the percentage game further, the rags will have runners attack the front and near posts as well as the centre of the goal, to mop up anything that is marginally either underhit or overhit, and all they're looking to do is get the faintest nick on the ball to divert it over the line using its own momentum. It's served as a get out of jail card for them for years, and is so effective that even a circus dwarf like Evra managed to bag 5 headed goals from set pieces last season, and just for good measure he did it again on Sunday.
You also need to remember that the rags are a massive team physically. Popular myth may have it they're a great footballing team, but they ain't. They counter attack well with pace and width, but a large element of their usual game plan is long balls and set pieces. At the Etihad in September 8 of their 11 players were 6ft 2' or taller. Whilst the world is generally aware that Smalling is 6ft 5' Vidic 6ft 2' and Camelgob 6ft 3', people forget that Valencia, Wellshit, Carrick, Fletcher and the Rapist are all 6ft 2' as well.
I think our delivery has improved this season, but whereas even Rafael and Evra can put a cross on a sixpence, with the exception of Kolarov (and even he's hit and miss), our crossing is still amongst the least effective in the top flight

Their game was also about switching play quickly to get behind the opposite full back to either penetrate the box or whip in a cross, Scholes was a master of switching play quickly or delivering the diagonal ball to implement the attack.

When we switch play it takes 2/3 passes to get from one flank to another in which time the opposition has shaped it's defence to suit our attack and nullifies the danger.

 

[BlueAnorak]

I'd disagree with that. They should have been down to 10 men and their goal was as the result of a foul. But even leaving that aside, we absolutely dominated that game after the goal. The BBC report talks about us being thwarted by a well-organised defence and exerting incessant pressure. The number of times bodies blocked goal-bound shots was into double figures.

Colin, your improvement was my confirmation of no improvement. As the Duke of Wellington once said: "They came on in the same old way and we defeated them in the same old way."

We really need to mix things up more. This was my problem with Mancini and it has not been addressed by Pellegrini away from home either.
- Better corners and set piece delivery from the flanks is required. Clearing the first man would be a start.
- More shots required from the edge of the box and further out.
- Run at the opposition more. Drive into the penalty area.
Continual play across the front of the opposition does not a parked bas move.

I saw against Spurs the way forward away from home: The brutal quick counter attack. we did it for half a season (2011-12 till Christmas) under Mancini then withdrew into our shells till the last 7 games. Against Spurs it was back with a vengence. We need to do this away from home. as the primary mode of attack. It they attack us we need to be absolutely brutal on the counter attack. It is the way Utd have won away from home in the Prem for the last 4 or 5 seasons - often when under the cosh. We need to learn the lesson.

You don't seem to take much account of the opposition in your simplistic analyses do you?! Revelling in oceans of counterattacking space is a bit difficult when our vastly superior ball retention (courtesy of fabulous players like Silva, Nasri, Ya Ya etc) usually means that we will enjoy 65% plus possession in the opposition half against even mid table teams, whilst teams at the bottom - of which Sunderland were a glorious case in point - will inevitably have neither the ambition nor the talent to venture further out than the edge of their own box. Poignant that you mention our title winning season, cos that's exactly what happened to us then. Before Christmas teams tried to take us on and we were able to cane them on the counter (1-5 at Spurs, 1-6 at the Swamp etc); after it, bus parking became endemic (Everton 1-0, Sunderland 1-0, West Brom 0-0, even the decider against QPR nearly ended in tears etc) and we couldn't. Tottenham on Sunday, whilst monstrously cack in general terms, were still good enough to push forward and play right into our hands.
What would you have us do then when the opposition politely declines to make a game of it?

You mean like the other points I made before further up the page:

We really need to mix things up more. This was my problem with Mancini and it has not been addressed by Pellegrini away from home either.
- Better corners and set piece delivery from the flanks is required. Clearing the first man would be a start.
- More shots required from the edge of the box and further out.
- Run at the opposition more. Drive into the penalty area.
Continual play across the front of the opposition does not a parked bus move.

;-)

Please note that possession football is good, indeed, it is one of the best defensive tactics there are as when you have the ball the opposition has to get it off you. But you have to take the lead for it to be a good defensive tactic. Till then you have to disrupt the masked rank defence and, for whatever reason, we haven't been able to do that away from home.

 

[supercity88]

The issue for me is when faced with the parked bus, we slow down to an absolute crawl. Far to easy for any professional side with a tad of organisation to then keep themselves in position and defend against us.

We have to inject pace and we have to have the fantastic movement and for me, the biggest thing is we have to have the width that a player like Navas provides because we will have to get in behind them.

The Rags have faced the exact same problem for years and they solved it by getting it wide and in behind and the sheer amount of goals they create that way proves it does work.

We just have to be able to adapt.

I've written at length on this subject before, and whilst I think you're right about how slowly we recycle the ball against a parked bus, getting the ball wide alone is not the answer. We knocked in no less than 50 crosses and corners at the Stadium of Light (stat courtesy of JMW on here), but about 47 of them were a) outswinging, and b) shite, and there was no-one in the box anyway. The rags speciality, and they must run endless drills on it at Carrington, is the whipped inswinger. Shrek and Crashley Young specialise in this coming in off the left flank, whilst The Rapist's corners are so vicious they're tantamount to shots. They aim for the centre of the 6 yard line, and everything is whipped in flat and fast at head height taking away all the defending team's natural advantages. Playing the percentage game further, the rags will have runners attack the front and near posts as well as the centre of the goal, to mop up anything that is marginally either underhit or overhit, and all they're looking to do is get the faintest nick on the ball to divert it over the line using its own momentum. It's served as a get out of jail card for them for years, and is so effective that even a circus dwarf like Evra managed to bag 5 headed goals from set pieces last season, and just for good measure he did it again on Sunday.
You also need to remember that the rags are a massive team physically. Popular myth may have it they're a great footballing team, but they ain't. They counter attack well with pace and width, but a large element of their usual game plan is long balls and set pieces. At the Etihad in September 8 of their 11 players were 6ft 2' or taller. Whilst the world is generally aware that Smalling is 6ft 5' Vidic 6ft 2' and Camelgob 6ft 3', people forget that Valencia, Wellshit, Carrick, Fletcher and the Rapist are all 6ft 2' as well.
I think our delivery has improved this season, but whereas even Rafael and Evra can put a cross on a sixpence, with the exception of Kolarov (and even he's hit and miss), our crossing is still amongst the least effective in the top flight

With you on that, when you are chasing a game or away from home it isn't always about performance. Generally there will be spells when the home side is on top and mixing it up and year after year we have struggled to adapt or stamp our authority. Sunderland like to battle and sit back, Stoke like to battle and play directly and we consistently perform poorly. If we press high up the pitch and force the opposition into mistakes, as we did against Spurs, our defence needs to stay concentrating and switched on so that we do not concede sloppy goals. The next task is to use the ball efficiently. We do this at home, we shoot, we create chances and we pass and move quickly. We need to do the same away from home. Shoot when there is an opportunity, don't try to walk the ball into the net and make sure we move it quickly and play the same style. Finally it is important to be able to match the opposition, use set pieces effectively. Away from home if we win a free kick we have to look to get a decent cross into the box. The same with corners. If we are chasing a game and have our defenders up, we have Yaya, Negredo, Dzeko all very good in the air to make the most of decent corners. Our style is similar to Arsenal in that we like to play intricate passes rather than swing the ball in. Fair enough when it was Tevez and Aguero, now it is different. Negredo and Dzeko are very good in the air and we need to use the direct approach when possible.

Our play is deserving of more points based on the stats. We have played better than most away from home, created more chances, had more shots, conceded the fewest shots on our goal so we are almost there. But to reach the next level we need to add that dirty side to our game. The ability to grind out results and do the boring stuff right. We score plenty of pretty goals but we need to go away from home and score and win no matter how we do it.

 

[BlueAnorak]

The issue for me is when faced with the parked bus, we slow down to an absolute crawl. Far to easy for any professional side with a tad of organisation to then keep themselves in position and defend against us.

We have to inject pace and we have to have the fantastic movement and for me, the biggest thing is we have to have the width that a player like Navas provides because we will have to get in behind them.

The Rags have faced the exact same problem for years and they solved it by getting it wide and in behind and the sheer amount of goals they create that way proves it does work.

We just have to be able to adapt.

I've written at length on this subject before, and whilst I think you're right about how slowly we recycle the ball against a parked bus, getting the ball wide alone is not the answer. We knocked in no less than 50 crosses and corners at the Stadium of Light (stat courtesy of JMW on here), but about 47 of them were a) outswinging, and b) shite, and there was no-one in the box anyway. The rags speciality, and they must run endless drills on it at Carrington, is the whipped inswinger. Shrek and Crashley Young specialise in this coming in off the left flank, whilst The Rapist's corners are so vicious they're tantamount to shots. They aim for the centre of the 6 yard line, and everything is whipped in flat and fast at head height taking away all the defending team's natural advantages. Playing the percentage game further, the rags will have runners attack the front and near posts as well as the centre of the goal, to mop up anything that is marginally either underhit or overhit, and all they're looking to do is get the faintest nick on the ball to divert it over the line using its own momentum. It's served as a get out of jail card for them for years, and is so effective that even a circus dwarf like Evra managed to bag 5 headed goals from set pieces last season, and just for good measure he did it again on Sunday.
You also need to remember that the rags are a massive team physically. Popular myth may have it they're a great footballing team, but they ain't. They counter attack well with pace and width, but a large element of their usual game plan is long balls and set pieces. At the Etihad in September 8 of their 11 players were 6ft 2' or taller. Whilst the world is generally aware that Smalling is 6ft 5' Vidic 6ft 2' and Camelgob 6ft 3', people forget that Valencia, Wellshit, Carrick, Fletcher and the Rapist are all 6ft 2' as well.
I think our delivery has improved this season, but whereas even Rafael and Evra can put a cross on a sixpence, with the exception of Kolarov (and even he's hit and miss), our crossing is still amongst the least effective in the top flight

Which is why I agree with this post 100%.