Discuss Pellegrini...

[chris85mcfc]

It would be a sad indictment of Soriano's footballing knowledge if this was true and somehow I doubt it is.

I don't think it is. The reason why I say that is because he took the time to define what he meant by trophy by saying "and by that I mean". He clearly wanted to define it carefully and I think he deliberately excluded it because he doesn't think it's a big enough competition to judge a manager by and I'd agree wholeheartedly. A manager shouldn't be judged as a success or failure by a League Cup or failure to win it. I don't think most football fans have anywhere near as much respect for the League Cup as the FA Cup, and internationally, the two are just on a different scale. The FA Cup is considered the premier domestic cup competition in the world. The oldest trophy in world football, the fact that it's a national event and usually has a dignitary like a royal or the Prime Minister making the presentation, Abide With Me, the big brass bands etc. It's such a British affair. The world eats it up and the worldwide audience figures for the FA Cup Final are staggering and are comparable even to the Champions League Final. It's that big. The League Cup is an understated affair by comparison.

I think the fact that the League Cup can be won by the end of Feb ties in with him not thinking its an 'important' trophy to win. Clearly he will take the trophy and respect it but its got to come alongside one of the majour trophies. I think the idea is that were still in with a shout in April whether it be FA Cup, CL or PL, if we won the League Cup in Feb but were out of the other 3 come April then i think a few questions would be asked.

Luckily we won the League Cup and were still in with a shout in the league.

 

[Skashion]

To be honest I don't think I am speaking out of turn that he only mentioned the FA Cup because he had enough sense to know it has some prestige in the English game and amongst supporters and is watched worldwide each year by an Audience of 100's of millions.

This year is the first year the Cop del Ray is being broadcast live into Teles in Asia , America , Australia etc and that's only because its Barca v Real.

The trophies he meant were Chumps League and Premier League in that order.

To win at least one of those each season is no walk in the park but that's the standard a City,manager has to strive for sooner rather than later.

As cruel as it might be especially if we are there or there about's in each season if MP failed on both fronts in the next two seasons he couldn't be expected to get a contract extension.

He may still but he couldn't be expected to.

Perfectly possible of course but as you said yourself, Soriano knows the FA Cup Final is watched by around 500 million people, and one of the things the club cares about is exposure. 500 million people is exposure. Maybe he wouldn't care that much if we won it or not but having 500 million people watching you on an occasion that's part of the world's sporting calendar, that he might care about, I think he'd see the logic in that.

 

[mancity111]

To be honest I don't think I am speaking out of turn that he only mentioned the FA Cup because he had enough sense to know it has some prestige in the English game and amongst supporters and is watched worldwide each year by an Audience of 100's of millions.

This year is the first year the Cop del Ray is being broadcast live into Teles in Asia , America , Australia etc and that's only because its Barca v Real.

The trophies he meant were Chumps League and Premier League in that order.

To win at least one of those each season is no walk in the park but that's the standard a City,manager has to strive for sooner rather than later.

As cruel as it might be especially if we are there or there about's in each season if MP failed on both fronts in the next two seasons he couldn't be expected to get a contract extension.

He may still but he couldn't be expected to.

Perfectly possible of course but as you said yourself, Soriano knows the FA Cup Final is watched by around 500 million people, and one of the things the club cares about is exposure. 500 million people is exposure. Maybe he wouldn't care that much if we won it or not but having 500 million people watching you on an occasion that's part of the world's sporting calendar, that he might care about, I think he'd see the logic in that.

I think if we made the final he would certainly care alot if we didn't win it perhaps more so than the other emotion if we did.

No doubt the cup final itself is huge for any club including us but I do repeat its Chumps first and Premiership second that counts for Soriano.

Don't forget his tenure and whether he will be remembered well by all and sundry at City and in England in general will depend largely on our trophy haul in the years to come.

 

[Skashion]

I think if we made the final he would certainly care alot if we didn't win it perhaps more so than the other emotion if we did.

No doubt the cup final itself is huge for any club including us but I do repeat its Chumps first and Premiership second that counts for Soriano.

Don't forget his tenure and whether he will be remembered well by all and sundry at City and in England in general will depend largely on our trophy haul in the years to come.

I was just saying I can see your point that it's not necessarily the trophy he might value from winning it but the exposure from such a huge global audience seeing us win it.

Absolutely. I have nothing but contempt for UEFA and the competition and the way it's organised, but I value the prize of being one of the best clubs in Europe and having to prove that we are.

I have no doubt he badly wants to win trophies.

 

[TGR]

As for Pellers, I cannot see it being anything other than the three years, whatever happens, and then Pep. Like you, I am a simple M20 lad and so can't do 'complicated'. Take care, our kid.

I think it's as plain as day too mate.

Three years with Pellegrini will be the minimum we will get. The only way I could ever have foreseen a circumstance where he didn't see out the minimum 3 years was if this season collapsed and Pellegrini did a Moyes. Thankfully the Chilean David has made mincemeat of the real David and has also managed to keep pace with the Machiavellian genius that is Mourinho and on that basis the only future I do see is another two season with Manuel followed by Pep.

I should stop trying to force people to be as content and as sanguine as I am about our future. If people want to fret about Pellegrini's dull press conferences or his lack of reactive in game management that's their business. I'll wait until I see a real problem in his managerial armour, one that makes the players not want to play for him for example, before I start worrying!

Problem in his managerial armour? How about not being able to select the right tactics to exploit the opposition whilst minimising their threat? A fairly important attribute in my book. And have I missed something, when did Pep give us the thumbs up?

I think Pep gave us the thumbs up around the same time as
Messi agreed to sign for us...

;-)

 

[nijinsky's fetlocks]

If he fails to win the Premiership this season, or the Premiership or Champions League next season, then he is a dead man walking in my opinion, regardless of how deliriously happy the players are, or how holistic the pies are, it really is that simple.
And so it should be, especially if he spends big and still wins bugger all.
We can't waste three years consolidating and making Billy happy whilst underachieving.

 

[Anonymous]

Earliest Pellegrini would go IMO is summer 2015. He's had a fine first season in England but I think he has treated the season too much as a sprint rather than a marathon. We have rarely had the same vigor since February as before, despite many good results. I think back to those games we were 3-0/4-0 up in with the players still going balls out for more goals and wonder if we should have sat back, rested legs, and thought of the big picture.

But he's also been unlucky with a horrendous amount of injuries to key and squad players. Plus, that transition period where we lost/drew so many away games, since when we've lost much fewer.

Next season will be important, I think the expectations of the Club will be higher and supposing we don't win the league this season and next season (it could be harder - Chelsea apparently close to signing Diego Costa, the striker they need, and who knows what United will be like after their spending) that would be 3 years in a row that the richest club in the league has failed to win the league. No two ways about it, that would be seen as an underachievement (some might say not winning it this season would already be one).

As for the future... well, I rated Mancini and rate Pellegrini even more, but I don't think we've yet had a bona fide A+ manager. So we could take the risk on Vieira or Martinez or go for a recently proven winner like Guardiola, Simeone or Klopp (who has had a pretty crap season but their injury list has made ours look kind and he's been having to use players from their B team).

I think in reality right now there's 3 superstar or A+ managers out there - Klopp, Guardiola, and Simeone. All of them would I suspect be high on City's managerial shortlist. It's no secret as Klopp has said himself that City wanted him last summer. Simeone's success this season building on what he has done last as shot him into that league as well. Pep is a no brainer. For me outside of those three, right now there isn't another manager out there who I'd consider to be A+. That's not to say that in the two years (i think it's inconceivable that Pellegrini doesn't see out his 3 year contract unless he does Moyes next season) there won't be others that have proved themselves.

Do I think Guardiola is the most likely of the three to be pitching up at City next? Yes I probably do simply because of his close ties to Txiki and his desire to manage in the PL. But if for whatever reason he isn't available (maybe he'll want to build a dynasty at Munich), then I suspect the club will take the same process they did last summer. The fact they're looking for a manager will mean they need one, and if they can't get Pep they'll get the best person they think they can get - with the proviso that person ticks the important boxes (plays attacking football, respects the entire job and organisation and what City are building, and isn't someone who "starts fires" in the press every week).

But we're a long way from that right now. Which is pretty hard to believe reading this forum. :)

 

[taconinja]

Earliest Pellegrini would go IMO is summer 2015. He's had a fine first season in England but I think he has treated the season too much as a sprint rather than a marathon. We have rarely had the same vigor since February as before, despite many good results. I think back to those games we were 3-0/4-0 up in with the players still going balls out for more goals and wonder if we should have sat back, rested legs, and thought of the big picture.

But he's also been unlucky with a horrendous amount of injuries to key and squad players. Plus, that transition period where we lost/drew so many away games, since when we've lost much fewer.

Next season will be important, I think the expectations of the Club will be higher and supposing we don't win the league this season and next season (it could be harder - Chelsea apparently close to signing Diego Costa, the striker they need, and who knows what United will be like after their spending) that would be 3 years in a row that the richest club in the league has failed to win the league. No two ways about it, that would be seen as an underachievement (some might say not winning it this season would already be one).

As for the future... well, I rated Mancini and rate Pellegrini even more, but I don't think we've yet had a bona fide A+ manager. So we could take the risk on Vieira or Martinez or go for a recently proven winner like Guardiola, Simeone or Klopp (who has had a pretty crap season but their injury list has made ours look kind and he's been having to use players from their B team).

I think in reality right now there's 3 superstar or A+ managers out there - Klopp, Guardiola, and Simeone. All of them would I suspect be high on City's managerial shortlist. It's no secret as Klopp has said himself that City wanted him last summer. Simeone's success this season building on what he has done last as shot him into that league as well. Pep is a no brainer. For me outside of those three, right now there isn't another manager out there who I'd consider to be A+. That's not to say that in the two years (i think it's inconceivable that Pellegrini doesn't see out his 3 year contract unless he does Moyes next season) there won't be others that have proved themselves.

Do I think Guardiola is the most likely of the three to be pitching up at City next? Yes I probably do simply because of his close ties to Txiki and his desire to manage in the PL. But if for whatever reason he isn't available (maybe he'll want to build a dynasty at Munich), then I suspect the club will take the same process they did last summer. The fact they're looking for a manager will mean they need one, and if they can't get Pep they'll get the best person they think they can get - with the proviso that person ticks the important boxes (plays attacking football, respects the entire job and organisation and what City are building, and isn't someone who "starts fires" in the press every week).

But we're a long way from that right now. Which is pretty hard to believe reading this forum. :)

Agreed. The reason I would hope Martinez might be considered is that there would be less of a transition period I think as he's already familiar with the in's and out's of the league. That doesn't mean I would select him over a more qualified candidate, mind.

 

[Anonymous]

Agreed. The reason I would hope Martinez might be considered is that there would be less of a transition period I think as he's already familiar with the in's and out's of the league. That doesn't mean I would select him over a more qualified candidate, mind.

The important thing for me is that the club have set their stall out vis a vis having a footballing identity which a) is fostered from the youth teams upwards and b) is one which is about playing attacking fluid possession based football. For me it's clear from the appointment of Pellegrini that those basic characteristics come before any perceived success in terms of a manager coming with a trophy haul or an impressive CV with lots of big clubs on it. Again it's a well worn out thing on Bluemoon, but Txiki gave Guardiola the Barca job under enormous expectations over far more highly decorated managers.

It's also why I'm not buying the arguments that Pellegrini will be under any pressure if he fails to win the league next season. The example I used earlier I'll use again. If we lose the CL final and miss out on the league by 2 points next season, then I do not for one second believe we have such a short sighted and binary thinking board of directors that they'd look at it and go "he's failed so we sack him". If the players are still responding to him and his methods, if the club is on an even keel and has been competitive in all competitions all season, then he'll see out his contract.

 

[Chippy_boy]

Points well made Billy but again I think you agree the bar will be raised next season and MP will have to improve and learn from his mistakes to meet that level.

I think what you are saying is that he is capable of doing so and more than likely will which is fine.

I am not convinced yet but a top finish to the season will give me some assurance.

I am not sure about the pressure from the board , there is always an element of pressure.

I think a top three finish and progression in his first season has to be considered a pass mark.

I do disagree with those who think we should be home and dry already in the premiership.

A lot has to go your way , injuries , suspensions, form , even the schedule has an impact.

If we finish with 85-88 points ( hopefully 88 points ) no objective City supporter could complain with our first season under MP.

Can't disagree with 99% of that. The one thing I'd stand by though is that if next season we miss out on the league by one or two points on the last day of the season then there will be no pressure to bare on Pellegrini. We don't have a board of directors who are knee jerk or short sighted, not by a long stretch. Pellegrini's on a 3 year contract and as you say we're already at the point where year 1 is satisfactory at least and could well end up being fantastic. You'd expect improvement on the pitch in year 2, but you cannot expect to win the title because you simply don't know how good the opposition will be. If for example we collect 90 points next season but Chelsea win it with 92 then as disappointing as that would be, it would be absolutely no reason to sack a manager and I don't think our board would ever operate in that manner.

The important thing is to improve season on season - not just by buying better players, but by coaching the ones you have to improve, improving the football you play, the competitiveness you show in each competition etc.

Far too sensible for this forum ;-)

There's too many people saying we should have walked it this season. Well guess what, bacon chops - sorry "sir bacon chops" - the most successful manager the league has ever seen, with all the resources he could eat and the some of the best players the league has ever seen, didn't win it every season did he.

You need luck and you need to not be unlucky with injuries. And your competitors have a role to play. I think we have made mistakes this season for sure. But we have also been incredibly unlucky with key players out for so long. We hardly saw Jovetic until January; in fact we've still hardly seen him. Aguero out for weeks and weeks. Nasri likewise. Silva too. Nastasic hasn't been seen since I can't remember. Kompany repeatedly out. Negredo, just when he was at his best... I could go on. Had Aguero been fit for as long as Suarez, I do think we would have won it this season and I really can't blame that on Pellegrini. Some might say we hurried him back too soon, but hindsight is a wonderful thing and guess what, we had 4 competitions to try to win - we needed him back as soon as we could get him.

And we still might well win it. Personally I think it's unlikely now, but you never know. And even if we don't, narrowly missing out - plus a trophy as well - is not a bad 1st season in my book.