Discussion: Manuel Pellegrini 2015/16

[schfc6]

Good post mate, but what about Bayern at home and Barca at home when he played 442 in both games and we got dicked in both?

The Barca one he actually went for Fernando and Milner as the midfield 2 with Fernandinho on the bench. Arguably worse, at least Yaya has the potential to play well in a 2.

The Bayern game was the most astonishingly inept in-game management I've ever seen though. To not bring on an extra midfielder very early on in that game was verging on the sado masichistic.

Liverpool had the team selection incompetence of the Barca game, and the in-game management incompetence of the Bayern game in the first half, but at least he tried to change it at half time, so he probably deserves some credit for that.

On balance I don't think Saturday was his worst ever management performance, but it probably squeezes in to the top 3.

The most worrying and horrifying thing of all is that he came out afterwards and said he didn't know what was wrong. He's 2 and a half years in now, if he doesn't understand by now he probably never will.

Yes, he said he didn't know what went wrong. He wasn't talking about anything more than the players performance. Tactics don't make you run more, make you tackle. Make you stand on your feet or pass 3 yards. As I've asked, why should City at home change their style, but Palace shouldn't? Would you swap Ya Ya, Fernando and De Bruyne for McArthur, Cabaye & Puncheon?

He played a formation, a starting xi that everyone on the pitch had played in before. It was a simple case of personnel available. Pellegrini is often and rightly so accused of square pegs & round holes. There was non of that. We had a great keeper, the same established, experienced full backs. Two centre backs whom have played close to 20 games together. To holding midfielders in holding midfield positions. One of European football's best number tens. Two very good wingers and the best out and out striker in the league.
Hardly a line up worthy of such scathing critisim. Especially considering Liverpool's form.

Hindsight, would suggest Fernandinho in for Toure and Otamendi in for either centre back. Otamendi and Demichellis were awful at Spurs, Mangala and Otamendi haven't looked great either. That is all hypothetical as its suggested Fernandinho and Otamendi weren't fit to start. Fernandinho's performance when he came on pretty much confirms that.

So do people really think a non match fit Otamendi & Fernandinho would have made it much better?

As for the Barcelona home game, it was 2-1. They scored from a throw in. The second half that we dominated for 25 minutes till Clichy saw red showed what the plan was. It actually highlights a basic flaw in your arguement. No matter what 3 we played centrally against Barcelona we'd be over ran. So something different is the only way forward. Any idiot could line Milner, Fernando & Fernandinho up against Rakatic, Inesta and Biscuits. It wouldn't work and would leave us isolated all over the pitch. If we matched up, it would have gone the way it goes for anyone against Barcelona. Much the same as your point regarding Liverpool and their running. I can tell you for free, swap De Bruyne for Fernandinho and they'd have still out ran us. Your attitude to team selection is obviously defeatist. Perhaps Pellegrini has faith in his players. Afterall they were aquired for and paid much more than their counterparts. They were also top of the league.

There is no point trying to match like for like if it's totally contradictory to your own stregnths and complimentary to theirs. That's idiocy, knowingly playing into your oppositions stregnths, as many are suggesting.

Fans said we needed to fuck of 442/4222, it won us two leagues, so yes let's fuck it off. Then the saviour was two holding and a 10 behind a striker. Ideally Silva, if not, what about the German player of the year. The nest no.10 in Germany. Oops, we did that Saturday. So now apparently we need 3 central midfielders. So now no room to play our best players in their right position.

Apparently Toure and Fernando can't play in a two, even against mid table sides. Toure can't even play with Fernandinho against good sides. So what's left? No Toure or 3 holding midfielders, so no Silva? No De Bruyne? No Silva and De Bruyne?

Fuck it, let's just get Jamie Vardy in, bring back Milner and De Jong and fuck off what we're good at and dogs of war it to 7th. Pellegrini gambles, he puts his neck on the line, fans often don't agree with it, he makes big calls in an attempt to try and win. We should be looking to beat Liverpool, not playing to suit them. Matching them up, is doing just that.

We should fuck him off, put Kiddo in charge. Bet your life Hed have played 3 central midfielders against Liverppol, afterall they were good 30 years ago.

Finally people keep asking why Fernandinho was left out, re watch the second half, totally off the pace. He was either knackered or unfit. Are we suggesting Delph should have started? That would have been a good idea. He's certainly proven he's fit and ready... Oh wait.

A fit Fernandinho & Delph or Fernando would have been ideal, a fit Fernandinho and up for it Ya Ya would be ideal. A up for it Ya Ya and Fernando may not be ideal, but it should compete.
Tactics can only be blamed for so much. Top of the league vs 10th is Macc vs United in the FA Cup, tactics should make limited difference. Certainly not the difference it made Saturday.

I've seen United beat Liverpool with Jon O'Shea in centre mid. We didn't play an alien formation Saturday, we played a system we've probably used in 25 of the last 30 games, yet it looked like they were playing a different sport. Tactics can take some blame Saturday, players more so.

 

[daztrueblue91]

Yes, he said he didn't know what went wrong. He wasn't talking about anything more than the players performance. Tactics don't make you run more, make you tackle. Make you stand on your feet or pass 3 yards. As I've asked, why should City at home change their style, but Palace shouldn't? Would you swap Ya Ya, Fernando and De Bruyne for McArthur, Cabaye & Puncheon?

As for the Barcelona home game, it was 2-1. They scored from a throw in. The second half that we dominated for 25 minutes till Clichy saw red showed what the plan was. It actually highlights a basic flaw in your arguement. No matter what 3 we played centrally against Barcelona we'd be over ran. So something different is the only way forward. Any idiot could line Milner, Fernando & Fernandinho up against Rakatic, Inesta and Biscuits. It wouldn't work and would leave us isolated all over the pitch. If we matched up, it would have gone the way it goes for anyone against Barcelona. Much the same as your point regarding Liverpool and their running. I can tell you for free, swap De Bruyne for Fernandinho and they'd have still out ran us. Your attitude to team selection is obviously defeatist. Perhaps Pellegrini has faith in his players. Afterall they were aquired for and paid much more than their counterparts. They were also top of the league.

There is no point trying to match like for like if it's totally contradictory to your own stregnths and complimentary to theirs. That's idiocy, knowingly playing into your oppositions stregnths, as many are suggesting.

Fans said we needed to fuck of 442/4222, it won us two leagues, so yes let's fuck it off. Then the saviour was two holding and a 10 behind a striker. Ideally Silva, if not, what about the German player of the year. The nest no.10 in Germany. Oops, we did that Saturday. So now apparently we need 3 central midfielders. So now no room to play our best players in their right position.

Apparently Toure and Fernando can't play in a two, even against mid table sides. Toure can't even play with Fernandinho against good sides. So what's left? No Toure or 3 holding midfielders, so no Silva? No De Bruyne? No Silva and De Bruyne?

Fuck it, let's just get Jamie Vardy in, bring back Milner and De Jong and fuck off what we're good at and dogs of war it to 7th. Pellegrini gambles, he puts his neck on the line, fans often don't agree with it, he makes big calls in an attempt to try and win. We should be looking to beat Liverpool, not playing to suit them. Matching them up, is doing just that.

We should fuck him off, put Kiddo in charge. Bet your life Hed have played 3 central midfielders against Liverppol, afterall they were good 30 years ago.

Finally people keep asking why Fernandinho was left out, re watch the second half, totally off the pace. He was either knackered or unfit. Are we suggesting Delph should have started? That would have been a good idea. He's certainly proven he's fit and ready... Oh wait.

A fit Fernandinho & Delph or Fernando would have been ideal, a fit Fernandinho and up for it Ya Ya would be ideal. A up for it Ya Ya and Fernando may not be ideal, but it should compete.
Tactics can only be blamed for so much. Top of the league vs 10th is Macc vs United in the FA Cup, tactics should make limited difference. Certainly not the difference it made Saturday.

I've seen United beat Liverpool with Jon O'Shea in centre mid. We didn't play an alien formation Saturday, we played a system we've probably used in 25 of the last 30 games, yet it looked like they were playing a different sport. Tactics can take some blame Saturday, players more so.

There is a difference between putting a player in his favoured position and getting the team to play to his strengths.

De Brunye was in his favoured number 10 role but had no runners in behind their defence at all. Sterling and Navas just stay out wide, Yaya never runs from deep and wants the ball to feet and Kun was isolated up top.

We set up expecting to play our normal game, which includes plenty of intricate passing and moving, without Silva who is the conductor of that orchestra.

We may have had a bit more luck if the players were encouraged to drop about 10 yards deeper and encouraged Sterling and Navas to drive forward at every opportunity. Maybe then we could have created a bit more space. But then again it's all ifs and buts.

Hopefully this can be our Chelsea moment when we won the league under Pellegrini and they dominated us at the Etihad. That said we have already been dicked of Spurs, and them, United, Everton and Arsenal's style are all better suited to playing the big games away from home and they all have to come to the Etihad.

If we win the league it will be because the manager has masterminded it. That said, unless we get our key players back and consistently fit, we will not win this league unless he adapts the team.

 

[flb]

I have been wondering much the same myself. We, City, top of the league, much better than Liverpool should tailor our game to suit a team in 10th having won one of their last 6. I'm sorry but if our starting line up Saturday isn't a match for Liverpool it's no fault of the manager.

Yes, Ya Ya & TFernando are questionable, but Palace with a midfield 2 of Cabaye & McArtur managed to not only cope but beat Liverpool.

Liverpool 1-2 C Palace

.....Cabaye...McArthur.....
Bollassi.Puncheon..Zaha
.........Sakho.............

Is that a front 5 set up much better than ours? Absolutely not. We hammered Palace the other week. Difference was, Toure and Fernando were bang up for it.

We all know Klopp is going to press, press high. Everyone accept our players. Why should any manager change his style or risk further injury to players to accommodate a midfield of Milner, Can and Lucas? Should we make special plans for Lallana? No. Firmino? No. Courtinho, perhaps.

Liverpool simply out worked us, I would hope with Ya Ya's passing, & stregnth, De Bruyne's intelligence that perhaps on a good day at home they could expose Liverpool. I would expect Fernando to match Can. I really am not sure why our manager with our squad should make special plans for mid table Liverpool who weren't in very good form. What he should expect is basic football ability and appitite to be shown. He certainly didn't get that.
People can talk tactics(shite) all they want, but if Toure is going to lose headers to Lucas that are 70/30 in his favour then we could have any manager, any system, if players give up, hide it will fail.

A deep lying powerful, confident in possession excellent passer with 2 rapid wingers is the perfect tactic to beat the high press. Players like Toure, Sagna, De Bruyne should be able deal with the likes of Milner, Lallana and Lucas then expose the space they leave behind.

Tactics mean nothing if players don't try. Why is it we can't play Fernando and Toure holding at home to a mid table side, yet United can play two cart horses, Liverpool can play Lucas & Can. Arsenal can play Cazorla and Coquelin, fuck me even Leicester play 2 strikers and two wingers are Drinkwater and Kante now better than our two?
The big difference between our two and the others? Desire. Arsenal will play Liverpool with 1 holding midfielder, they will not lose 4-1.

Where Pellegrini is at fault, Toure should be called on his work rate, it's natural he won't rat around like Coquelin or Milner, but his experience, his skill set he should dominate. If with help from Fernando, two accomplished full backs, De Bruyne, Sterling, Aguero and Navas Toure can't use his skills to dominate, then questions should be asked, but not of Pellegrini.

Why out of the entire top half of the Prem should we be the only ones to play three holding midfielders or it be consider suicide? I would say, Fernando, Toure & Fernandinho is over kill. Unless away in Europe or perhaps away vs Chelsea, rags, Arsenal.

If that's the case then it's obvious Manuel has lost the ability to motivate his players to play as he suggests, Yaya has played well twice this season yet is a shoe in every game, he's gambling that Yaya will turn up when reality his best days are behind him, he picks him so rightly takes the flak when he plays like he did on Saturday.

We have been bang average since we won the first five PL games on the bounce , we have picked up 11 points in 8 games, bang average shit form with the tools we have at our disposal.

He failed to motivate the team last year when it mattered and it looks like history is repeating itself this season-only this time we have spent £150 million and stood still.

 

[Silva_Spell]

He has yet again said he'd pick the same team.

140m spent and still being held back by our own manager. Looking forward to seeing him replaced.

We could dominate this league for years with a manager who can get more out of the team than the sum of its parts.

 

[Shaelumstash]

Yes, he said he didn't know what went wrong. He wasn't talking about anything more than the players performance. Tactics don't make you run more, make you tackle. Make you stand on your feet or pass 3 yards. As I've asked, why should City at home change their style, but Palace shouldn't? Would you swap Ya Ya, Fernando and De Bruyne for McArthur, Cabaye & Puncheon?

He played a formation, a starting xi that everyone on the pitch had played in before. It was a simple case of personnel available. Pellegrini is often and rightly so accused of square pegs & round holes. There was non of that. We had a great keeper, the same established, experienced full backs. Two centre backs whom have played close to 20 games together. To holding midfielders in holding midfield positions. One of European football's best number tens. Two very good wingers and the best out and out striker in the league.
Hardly a line up worthy of such scathing critisim. Especially considering Liverpool's form.

Hindsight, would suggest Fernandinho in for Toure and Otamendi in for either centre back. Otamendi and Demichellis were awful at Spurs, Mangala and Otamendi haven't looked great either. That is all hypothetical as its suggested Fernandinho and Otamendi weren't fit to start. Fernandinho's performance when he came on pretty much confirms that.

So do people really think a non match fit Otamendi & Fernandinho would have made it much better?

As for the Barcelona home game, it was 2-1. They scored from a throw in. The second half that we dominated for 25 minutes till Clichy saw red showed what the plan was. It actually highlights a basic flaw in your arguement. No matter what 3 we played centrally against Barcelona we'd be over ran. So something different is the only way forward. Any idiot could line Milner, Fernando & Fernandinho up against Rakatic, Inesta and Biscuits. It wouldn't work and would leave us isolated all over the pitch. If we matched up, it would have gone the way it goes for anyone against Barcelona. Much the same as your point regarding Liverpool and their running. I can tell you for free, swap De Bruyne for Fernandinho and they'd have still out ran us. Your attitude to team selection is obviously defeatist. Perhaps Pellegrini has faith in his players. Afterall they were aquired for and paid much more than their counterparts. They were also top of the league.

There is no point trying to match like for like if it's totally contradictory to your own stregnths and complimentary to theirs. That's idiocy, knowingly playing into your oppositions stregnths, as many are suggesting.

Fans said we needed to fuck of 442/4222, it won us two leagues, so yes let's fuck it off. Then the saviour was two holding and a 10 behind a striker. Ideally Silva, if not, what about the German player of the year. The nest no.10 in Germany. Oops, we did that Saturday. So now apparently we need 3 central midfielders. So now no room to play our best players in their right position.

Apparently Toure and Fernando can't play in a two, even against mid table sides. Toure can't even play with Fernandinho against good sides. So what's left? No Toure or 3 holding midfielders, so no Silva? No De Bruyne? No Silva and De Bruyne?

Fuck it, let's just get Jamie Vardy in, bring back Milner and De Jong and fuck off what we're good at and dogs of war it to 7th. Pellegrini gambles, he puts his neck on the line, fans often don't agree with it, he makes big calls in an attempt to try and win. We should be looking to beat Liverpool, not playing to suit them. Matching them up, is doing just that.

We should fuck him off, put Kiddo in charge. Bet your life Hed have played 3 central midfielders against Liverppol, afterall they were good 30 years ago.

Finally people keep asking why Fernandinho was left out, re watch the second half, totally off the pace. He was either knackered or unfit. Are we suggesting Delph should have started? That would have been a good idea. He's certainly proven he's fit and ready... Oh wait.

A fit Fernandinho & Delph or Fernando would have been ideal, a fit Fernandinho and up for it Ya Ya would be ideal. A up for it Ya Ya and Fernando may not be ideal, but it should compete.
Tactics can only be blamed for so much. Top of the league vs 10th is Macc vs United in the FA Cup, tactics should make limited difference. Certainly not the difference it made Saturday.

I've seen United beat Liverpool with Jon O'Shea in centre mid. We didn't play an alien formation Saturday, we played a system we've probably used in 25 of the last 30 games, yet it looked like they were playing a different sport. Tactics can take some blame Saturday, players more so.

So so strange that you think Yaya and Fernando are a viable option as a two despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. We were an absolute shambles when they played in a 2 last season. Yaya's legs are another year older and yet you expect an improvement? I don't get it.

It's not with the benefit of hindsight, I and seemingly thousands of others were horrified at the starting line up and feared the worst. You obviously had true faith he'd got it right, but on reflection which view was correct based on the way the game panned out?

Regarding Barca scoring from a throw in, it's a discussion I have had with you before, and something we fundamentally disagree upon. There is more to football than the 5 seconds before a goal. Thinking only the 5 seconds before a goal is all that matters is the way children look at football. It's like saying midfielders are completely irrelevant unless they score, assist, or clear one off the line. It's bollocks, the game is played over 90 minutes.

Very often tactics play little to no role in the 5 seconds before a goal. Where tactics play a role is in the pattern of play, the way a game pans out. If your team is getting outclassed, dominated, toyed with, it becomes demotivating for players. They lose confidence. That's where individual mistakes happen, and often goals are scored.

Conversely, when your team is set up tactically correctly and you are the better team, confidence becomes higher, passes are sharper, finishes are clinical, defenders read the game without thinking. If you are set up to get dominated in midfield, you're chasing shadows, you're not keeping possession, you're not creating any changes, do you seriously expect the players performance to be at the same level as if they were dicking a team 3-0 and strolling it? Of course not.

Yes they are professionals, yes they should be confident, but they are human beings. It's often said confidence is the most important thing in football. That's why you see teams with low confidence like Chelsea can go on a dreadful run. Whereas "winning is a habit" because if you're playing well and winning it becomes infectious, and you think you can't get beaten. Confidence ebbs and flows during a game too.

I can't remember if Bayern's 6 in midfield against our 2 directly led to a goal, but I know on the pattern of play we got absolutely dicked, embarassed, outclassed. Same against Barca, we got absolutely mullered. The 5 seconds before the goals were scored is not the only thing that matters in the game.

Regarding De Bruyne being the "best number 10 in Germany" so he should replace SIlva easily. I think that's really short sighted and naive. De Bruyne is a fine player, but he plays direct football, he looks for the early through ball every time, loves running in to space turning defence in to attack as quickly as possible, playing on the break. Silva is almost the complete opposite. He's probably the best playmaker in Europe. He retains possession, he dictated play, he opens up packed defences. Yes they both nominally play in a "number 10" position, but they have got completely different characteristics. To expect De Bruyne to step in and do exactly what Silva does isn't fair on De Bruyne.

It's like Aguero is a centre forward. So is Edin Dzeko. But just because the same position, you wouldn't expect Aguero to win headers against 6 foot 5 defenders, or Dzeko to skin 3, out pace them and bury it.

 

[kaz7]

He has yet again said he'd pick the same team.

140m spent and still being held back by our own manager. Looking forward to seeing him replaced.

We could dominate this league for years with a manager who can get more out of the team than the sum of its parts.

Our golden generation for want of a better word are about to expire,shame

 

[Keepingthefaithsince1976]

I knew this would end up being my fault. :) I do agree to some extent, that sometimes the crowd aren't helpful at City. I think Bony has been a case in point this season. Decent premier league striker, looking short on confidence after a difficult start with us. If he doesn't produce perfection every time he touches the ball, people around me seem to be moaning and groaning and getting on his case. Clearly that doesn't help him at all and it would be in everyone's interest to give him a break. None of this however, comes even close to being the explanation for what happened on Saturday.

I wasn't blaming you bud. But I've read about 50 posts since Saturday (& there's probably loads more) that say in effect "when I saw the team sheet I knew". Well aren't City blessed having so many psychic fans? If so many knew why did they stay & watch? Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

 

[grim up north]

He has yet again said he'd pick the same team.

140m spent and still being held back by our own manager. Looking forward to seeing him replaced.

We could dominate this league for years with a manager who can get more out of the team than the sum of its parts.

The press are after the clubs and Pellers blood he ain't going to admit to them he got it wrong and give them more ammo to print their bile

 

[moomba]

I wasn't blaming you bud. But I've read about 50 posts since Saturday (& there's probably loads more) that say in effect "when I saw the team sheet I knew". Well aren't City blessed having so many psychic fans? If so many knew why did they stay & watch? Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Sad thing is, it's not hindsight.

Many of been critical of Yaya and 1 other in the midfield against decent teams for some time. I thought MP had got over that little obsession, but maybe not. It's the thing that stood out for me when I saw the lineup before the game.

 

[Keepingthefaithsince1976]

I have been wondering much the same myself. We, City, top of the league, much better than Liverpool should tailor our game to suit a team in 10th having won one of their last 6. I'm sorry but if our starting line up Saturday isn't a match for Liverpool it's no fault of the manager.

Yes, Ya Ya & TFernando are questionable, but Palace with a midfield 2 of Cabaye & McArtur managed to not only cope but beat Liverpool.

Liverpool 1-2 C Palace

.....Cabaye...McArthur.....
Bollassi.Puncheon..Zaha
.........Sakho.............

Is that a front 5 set up much better than ours? Absolutely not. We hammered Palace the other week. Difference was, Toure and Fernando were bang up for it.

We all know Klopp is going to press, press high. Everyone accept our players. Why should any manager change his style or risk further injury to players to accommodate a midfield of Milner, Can and Lucas? Should we make special plans for Lallana? No. Firmino? No. Courtinho, perhaps.

Liverpool simply out worked us, I would hope with Ya Ya's passing, & stregnth, De Bruyne's intelligence that perhaps on a good day at home they could expose Liverpool. I would expect Fernando to match Can. I really am not sure why our manager with our squad should make special plans for mid table Liverpool who weren't in very good form. What he should expect is basic football ability and appitite to be shown. He certainly didn't get that.
People can talk tactics(shite) all they want, but if Toure is going to lose headers to Lucas that are 70/30 in his favour then we could have any manager, any system, if players give up, hide it will fail.

A deep lying powerful, confident in possession excellent passer with 2 rapid wingers is the perfect tactic to beat the high press. Players like Toure, Sagna, De Bruyne should be able deal with the likes of Milner, Lallana and Lucas then expose the space they leave behind.

Tactics mean nothing if players don't try. Why is it we can't play Fernando and Toure holding at home to a mid table side, yet United can play two cart horses, Liverpool can play Lucas & Can. Arsenal can play Cazorla and Coquelin, fuck me even Leicester play 2 strikers and two wingers are Drinkwater and Kante now better than our two?
The big difference between our two and the others? Desire. Arsenal will play Liverpool with 1 holding midfielder, they will not lose 4-1.

Where Pellegrini is at fault, Toure should be called on his work rate, it's natural he won't rat around like Coquelin or Milner, but his experience, his skill set he should dominate. If with help from Fernando, two accomplished full backs, De Bruyne, Sterling, Aguero and Navas Toure can't use his skills to dominate, then questions should be asked, but not of Pellegrini.

Why out of the entire top half of the Prem should we be the only ones to play three holding midfielders or it be consider suicide? I would say, Fernando, Toure & Fernandinho is over kill. Unless away in Europe or perhaps away vs Chelsea, rags, Arsenal.

Good lad. You see its an easy thing to think lets blame the manager. The players get away scott free and eventually they get the manager fired. Are the fans frightened of looking out of place by giving lazy players a piece of their mind? In a constructively positive way of course ;-)