Discussion: Manuel Pellegrini 2015/16

[Exeter Blue I am here]

I wasn't blaming you bud. But I've read about 50 posts since Saturday (& there's probably loads more) that say in effect "when I saw the team sheet I knew". Well aren't City blessed having so many psychic fans? If so many knew why did they stay & watch? Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Erm, we stayed to watch because we paid good money to, we love our team and we love the game. And hindsight never came into it. As soon as most people on here saw the team sheet on Saturday, they absolutely did know what was coming, not least because they'd seen it happen several times before. If your one eyed devotion prevented you from enjoying that same perspicacity, then that's a pity.......

 

[Keepingthefaithsince1976]

There is a difference between putting a player in his favoured position and getting the team to play to his strengths.

De Brunye was in his favoured number 10 role but had no runners in behind their defence at all. Sterling and Navas just stay out wide, Yaya never runs from deep and wants the ball to feet and Kun was isolated up top.

We set up expecting to play our normal game, which includes plenty of intricate passing and moving, without Silva who is the conductor of that orchestra.

We may have had a bit more luck if the players were encouraged to drop about 10 yards deeper and encouraged Sterling and Navas to drive forward at every opportunity. Maybe then we could have created a bit more space. But then again it's all ifs and buts.

Hopefully this can be our Chelsea moment when we won the league under Pellegrini and they dominated us at the Etihad. That said we have already been dicked of Spurs, and them, United, Everton and Arsenal's style are all better suited to playing the big games away from home and they all have to come to the Etihad.

If we win the league it will be because the manager has masterminded it. That said, unless we get our key players back and consistently fit, we will not win this league unless he adapts the team.

Since when do professional footballers need to be "encouraged" to move their butts.

 

[mosssideblue]

Yes, he said he didn't know what went wrong. He wasn't talking about anything more than the players performance. Tactics don't make you run more, make you tackle. Make you stand on your feet or pass 3 yards. As I've asked, why should City at home change their style, but Palace shouldn't? Would you swap Ya Ya, Fernando and De Bruyne for McArthur, Cabaye & Puncheon?

He played a formation, a starting xi that everyone on the pitch had played in before. It was a simple case of personnel available. Pellegrini is often and rightly so accused of square pegs & round holes. There was non of that. We had a great keeper, the same established, experienced full backs. Two centre backs whom have played close to 20 games together. To holding midfielders in holding midfield positions. One of European football's best number tens. Two very good wingers and the best out and out striker in the league.
Hardly a line up worthy of such scathing critisim. Especially considering Liverpool's form.

Hindsight, would suggest Fernandinho in for Toure and Otamendi in for either centre back. Otamendi and Demichellis were awful at Spurs, Mangala and Otamendi haven't looked great either. That is all hypothetical as its suggested Fernandinho and Otamendi weren't fit to start. Fernandinho's performance when he came on pretty much confirms that.

So do people really think a non match fit Otamendi & Fernandinho would have made it much better?

As for the Barcelona home game, it was 2-1. They scored from a throw in. The second half that we dominated for 25 minutes till Clichy saw red showed what the plan was. It actually highlights a basic flaw in your arguement. No matter what 3 we played centrally against Barcelona we'd be over ran. So something different is the only way forward. Any idiot could line Milner, Fernando & Fernandinho up against Rakatic, Inesta and Biscuits. It wouldn't work and would leave us isolated all over the pitch. If we matched up, it would have gone the way it goes for anyone against Barcelona. Much the same as your point regarding Liverpool and their running. I can tell you for free, swap De Bruyne for Fernandinho and they'd have still out ran us. Your attitude to team selection is obviously defeatist. Perhaps Pellegrini has faith in his players. Afterall they were aquired for and paid much more than their counterparts. They were also top of the league.

There is no point trying to match like for like if it's totally contradictory to your own stregnths and complimentary to theirs. That's idiocy, knowingly playing into your oppositions stregnths, as many are suggesting.

Fans said we needed to fuck of 442/4222, it won us two leagues, so yes let's fuck it off. Then the saviour was two holding and a 10 behind a striker. Ideally Silva, if not, what about the German player of the year. The nest no.10 in Germany. Oops, we did that Saturday. So now apparently we need 3 central midfielders. So now no room to play our best players in their right position.

Apparently Toure and Fernando can't play in a two, even against mid table sides. Toure can't even play with Fernandinho against good sides. So what's left? No Toure or 3 holding midfielders, so no Silva? No De Bruyne? No Silva and De Bruyne?

Fuck it, let's just get Jamie Vardy in, bring back Milner and De Jong and fuck off what we're good at and dogs of war it to 7th. Pellegrini gambles, he puts his neck on the line, fans often don't agree with it, he makes big calls in an attempt to try and win. We should be looking to beat Liverpool, not playing to suit them. Matching them up, is doing just that.

We should fuck him off, put Kiddo in charge. Bet your life Hed have played 3 central midfielders against Liverppol, afterall they were good 30 years ago.

Finally people keep asking why Fernandinho was left out, re watch the second half, totally off the pace. He was either knackered or unfit. Are we suggesting Delph should have started? That would have been a good idea. He's certainly proven he's fit and ready... Oh wait.

A fit Fernandinho & Delph or Fernando would have been ideal, a fit Fernandinho and up for it Ya Ya would be ideal. A up for it Ya Ya and Fernando may not be ideal, but it should compete.
Tactics can only be blamed for so much. Top of the league vs 10th is Macc vs United in the FA Cup, tactics should make limited difference. Certainly not the difference it made Saturday.

I've seen United beat Liverpool with Jon O'Shea in centre mid. We didn't play an alien formation Saturday, we played a system we've probably used in 25 of the last 30 games, yet it looked like they were playing a different sport. Tactics can take some blame Saturday, players more so.

I totally agree with this, yet many have taken it the other way to fuel their agenda. If we never lost another game this season, it would be down to the players.

 

[mosssideblue]

You're right fella, it's not Pellegrini's fault.

All the signing have been shit, then there's the atomsphere, the injuries and of course the Gyspy curse....... or was that just at Maine Road.

Read your response this morning and have not been able to afford you a response back until now. If you park the Pellers selection criteria and comparing us to other PL teams, do you honestly believe we have a strong squad, and by that I mean strength in depth? Gen question btw. If you want to come back with flippancy, then we wont bother discussing.

 

[mosssideblue]

We have got lucky with hart but as he has played in pretty much all the games the lack of decent back up can't be a excuse At this time, too many posters say so and so is shit, we do not have shit players end of, first 11 second 11 isn't the best way of doing it, do it by position

Hart, willy( a weak link)
Zabba,sagna
Kompany,otamendi,mangala,mdm
Clichy,kolorov,mangala
Toure,delph,Nando,dinho
Navas,nasri,silva,kdb,sterling
Sergio,bony,kelechi

If that is anything other than one of the best squads in Europe then I am missing something

The question of a strong squad probably deserves its own thread as in here it is being used for and against the result on Sat. If we forget team selection and comparing us with other PL teams, is our squad genuinely good?

For me it comes down to interpretation and no doubt there will be many different views on this , but in my mind it means after our first team, we have players who can automatically slip into the team and not lower the overall standard the team plays at.

I think we have a single point of failure in our squad with Joe, and I would like to think that might be addressed by the club sooner rather than later (but that's just my standpoint). I also think many still are including sentiment into the argument that we have solid players standing by.

You just have to look at the individual player threads to get a wide spectrum of viewpoint on who is good, bad or indifferent, but those being slated as being next to useless are part of our squad.

Move from there to the transfer thread and you will see posters saying we need these positions filled urgently etc etc. As I said, its all just opinions, and mine is we have the strongest first team out there in the Prem and on their day, Europe. Take a couple of them out and the team does seem to suffer, and I believe that is because the quality just isn't there any more.

As I said also, probably deserves its own thread if it hasn't one already.

 

[Keepingthefaithsince1976]

Erm, we stayed to watch because we paid good money to, we love our team and we love the game. And hindsight never came into it. As soon as most people on here saw the team sheet on Saturday, they absolutely did know what was coming, not least because they'd seen it happen several times before. If your one eyed devotion prevented you from enjoying that same perspicacity, then that's a pity.......

Weren't fans moaning a while ago about City being too cautious and not "putting teams to the sword"? We got beat by a team who wanted it much more on the day. I actually think Arsenal losing played a big part in City's team selection. The squad players were utilised because there were 7 games in 22 days to go. Playing games gains match fitness. I still think they should have done a lot better but it was a bad day. Can't wait for tomorrow night.

 

[daztrueblue91]

Since when do professional footballers need to be "encouraged" to move their butts.

It is far too easy to blame Yaya for all of our poor performances.

People need to accept that Yaya has a laboured style of play. That does not mean he is lazy and not hard working, however the fact he is 6ft odd and around 15+ stone shows that he is not the most mobile player.

Yaya is/was impossible to stop once he got going but it was his acceleration that has always hindered him. Expecting him to keep up with quicker, smaller, agile and more mobile players such as Coutinho and Lallana is practically impossible. Especially in this day and age when you cannot even fart without giving away a free kick.

That doesn't mean he has been strolling round the pitch doing nothing. IMO, Yaya looks the same player when he plays well as when he plays poor. The only difference being the result. People have rarely ever judged him as a 7 out of 10 player. With Toure he is either brilliant or shit and that seems to depend on if City win or not.

He gets a lot of unfair criticism. However, in the past few seasons bang average players like Puncheon and Mason have run rings past him, solely due to the fact that they are more energetic and quicker. It seems Pellegrini is hanging him out to dry by putting him in a midfield two against energetic players.

 

[cookster]

Read your response this morning and have not been able to afford you a response back until now. If you park the Pellers selection criteria and comparing us to other PL teams, do you honestly believe we have a strong squad, and by that I mean strength in depth? Gen question btw. If you want to come back with flippancy, then we wont bother discussing.

I think we have by far the strongest first team and squad in the Premier League, Chelsea first team is close, followed by Arse as a squad.

Counter question, when did you realise that Yaya was shit in a midfield two? I like many blues realised this around 2 years ago, it has also been noted by several pundits.

So if Pellegini is a great manager, why does he KEEP making the same mistakes OVER and OVER again?

 

[Exeter Blue I am here]

I have been wondering much the same myself. We, City, top of the league, much better than Liverpool should tailor our game to suit a team in 10th having won one of their last 6. I'm sorry but if our starting line up Saturday isn't a match for Liverpool it's no fault of the manager.

Yes, Ya Ya & TFernando are questionable, but Palace with a midfield 2 of Cabaye & McArtur managed to not only cope but beat Liverpool.

Liverpool 1-2 C Palace

.....Cabaye...McArthur.....
Bollassi.Puncheon..Zaha
.........Sakho.............

Is that a front 5 set up much better than ours? Absolutely not. We hammered Palace the other week. Difference was, Toure and Fernando were bang up for it.

We all know Klopp is going to press, press high. Everyone accept our players. Why should any manager change his style or risk further injury to players to accommodate a midfield of Milner, Can and Lucas? Should we make special plans for Lallana? No. Firmino? No. Courtinho, perhaps.

Liverpool simply out worked us, I would hope with Ya Ya's passing, & stregnth, De Bruyne's intelligence that perhaps on a good day at home they could expose Liverpool. I would expect Fernando to match Can. I really am not sure why our manager with our squad should make special plans for mid table Liverpool who weren't in very good form. What he should expect is basic football ability and appitite to be shown. He certainly didn't get that.
People can talk tactics(shite) all they want, but if Toure is going to lose headers to Lucas that are 70/30 in his favour then we could have any manager, any system, if players give up, hide it will fail.

A deep lying powerful, confident in possession excellent passer with 2 rapid wingers is the perfect tactic to beat the high press. Players like Toure, Sagna, De Bruyne should be able deal with the likes of Milner, Lallana and Lucas then expose the space they leave behind.

Tactics mean nothing if players don't try. Why is it we can't play Fernando and Toure holding at home to a mid table side, yet United can play two cart horses, Liverpool can play Lucas & Can. Arsenal can play Cazorla and Coquelin, fuck me even Leicester play 2 strikers and two wingers are Drinkwater and Kante now better than our two?
The big difference between our two and the others? Desire. Arsenal will play Liverpool with 1 holding midfielder, they will not lose 4-1.

Where Pellegrini is at fault, Toure should be called on his work rate, it's natural he won't rat around like Coquelin or Milner, but his experience, his skill set he should dominate. If with help from Fernando, two accomplished full backs, De Bruyne, Sterling, Aguero and Navas Toure can't use his skills to dominate, then questions should be asked, but not of Pellegrini.

Why out of the entire top half of the Prem should we be the only ones to play three holding midfielders or it be consider suicide? I would say, Fernando, Toure & Fernandinho is over kill. Unless away in Europe or perhaps away vs Chelsea, rags, Arsenal.

I normally have a fair bit of respect for your posts, but there's some right guff in that lot, starting with the opening gambit about our starting line up having had enough quality to effectively absolve the manager of blame. Well, winning football matches isn't simply a question of having better players than your opponents, but also about their deployment, their attitude, their discipline and their ability to impose the prescribed game plan whilst negating the strengths of the opposition. As a case in point, Leicester City are top of the league.
The analogy with the Crystal Palace vs Liverpool game is laughable. Firstly Palace were the away team. Secondly Palace are a counterattacking team. Thirdly Palace's starting line up at Klanfield was awash with power, physicality and pace. Fourthly they sat deep with 9 men behind the ball and then blitzed downfield whenever the opportunity presented itself. Fifthly, labelling Liverpool a midtable team is disingenuous in the extreme given what their new manager inherited and given his proven ability to motivate new charges. The same 'mid table' team ran us ragged at Anfield only 7 months ago, and Klopp's Dortmund gave us the mother of all footballing lessons in the CL 3 years ago. That should have been enough alone for Pellegrini to take heed, and the idea that we shouldn't have been concerned was arrogant and naive in equal measure; QED.

City meanwhile defended high up the pitch, had two slightly built lightweights out wide, and two immobile central midfielders, who turned over possession and then lacked the legs to get back and cover as a red shirted swarm descended on our 36 year old centre half. Our set up was Klippety's wettest dream. The players didn't help, but in 2015, Barca twice, Liverpool twice, the rags, Spurs, Juventus, the Arse, Monchengladbach (until he gave Ya Ya the hook) and Seville at the Etihad (albeit that we somehow ended up winning the game), have all taught us the same lesson to varying degrees. If I hadn't watched Ya Ya Toure standing on the halfway line in the Allianz, whilst Jerome Boateng virtually walked the ball up to the edge of the City penalty area again and again and again, I might have been more prepared to put the boot into the players (and there's no denying they weren't partly culpable), but sadly I did watch it, and I am therefore more inclined to question the wisdom of the man, who keeps sending his team out with seemingly no regard for how he might combat what the opposition might do

 

[Kazzydeyna]

Yes, he said he didn't know what went wrong. He wasn't talking about anything more than the players performance. Tactics don't make you run more, make you tackle. Make you stand on your feet or pass 3 yards. As I've asked, why should City at home change their style, but Palace shouldn't? Would you swap Ya Ya, Fernando and De Bruyne for McArthur, Cabaye & Puncheon?

He played a formation, a starting xi that everyone on the pitch had played in before. It was a simple case of personnel available. Pellegrini is often and rightly so accused of square pegs & round holes. There was non of that. We had a great keeper, the same established, experienced full backs. Two centre backs whom have played close to 20 games together. To holding midfielders in holding midfield positions. One of European football's best number tens. Two very good wingers and the best out and out striker in the league.
Hardly a line up worthy of such scathing critisim. Especially considering Liverpool's form.

Hindsight, would suggest Fernandinho in for Toure and Otamendi in for either centre back. Otamendi and Demichellis were awful at Spurs, Mangala and Otamendi haven't looked great either. That is all hypothetical as its suggested Fernandinho and Otamendi weren't fit to start. Fernandinho's performance when he came on pretty much confirms that.

So do people really think a non match fit Otamendi & Fernandinho would have made it much better?

As for the Barcelona home game, it was 2-1. They scored from a throw in. The second half that we dominated for 25 minutes till Clichy saw red showed what the plan was. It actually highlights a basic flaw in your arguement. No matter what 3 we played centrally against Barcelona we'd be over ran. So something different is the only way forward. Any idiot could line Milner, Fernando & Fernandinho up against Rakatic, Inesta and Biscuits. It wouldn't work and would leave us isolated all over the pitch. If we matched up, it would have gone the way it goes for anyone against Barcelona. Much the same as your point regarding Liverpool and their running. I can tell you for free, swap De Bruyne for Fernandinho and they'd have still out ran us. Your attitude to team selection is obviously defeatist. Perhaps Pellegrini has faith in his players. Afterall they were aquired for and paid much more than their counterparts. They were also top of the league.

There is no point trying to match like for like if it's totally contradictory to your own stregnths and complimentary to theirs. That's idiocy, knowingly playing into your oppositions stregnths, as many are suggesting.

Fans said we needed to fuck of 442/4222, it won us two leagues, so yes let's fuck it off. Then the saviour was two holding and a 10 behind a striker. Ideally Silva, if not, what about the German player of the year. The nest no.10 in Germany. Oops, we did that Saturday. So now apparently we need 3 central midfielders. So now no room to play our best players in their right position.

Apparently Toure and Fernando can't play in a two, even against mid table sides. Toure can't even play with Fernandinho against good sides. So what's left? No Toure or 3 holding midfielders, so no Silva? No De Bruyne? No Silva and De Bruyne?

Fuck it, let's just get Jamie Vardy in, bring back Milner and De Jong and fuck off what we're good at and dogs of war it to 7th. Pellegrini gambles, he puts his neck on the line, fans often don't agree with it, he makes big calls in an attempt to try and win. We should be looking to beat Liverpool, not playing to suit them. Matching them up, is doing just that.

We should fuck him off, put Kiddo in charge. Bet your life Hed have played 3 central midfielders against Liverppol, afterall they were good 30 years ago.

Finally people keep asking why Fernandinho was left out, re watch the second half, totally off the pace. He was either knackered or unfit. Are we suggesting Delph should have started? That would have been a good idea. He's certainly proven he's fit and ready... Oh wait.

A fit Fernandinho & Delph or Fernando would have been ideal, a fit Fernandinho and up for it Ya Ya would be ideal. A up for it Ya Ya and Fernando may not be ideal, but it should compete.
Tactics can only be blamed for so much. Top of the league vs 10th is Macc vs United in the FA Cup, tactics should make limited difference. Certainly not the difference it made Saturday.

I've seen United beat Liverpool with Jon O'Shea in centre mid. We didn't play an alien formation Saturday, we played a system we've probably used in 25 of the last 30 games, yet it looked like they were playing a different sport. Tactics can take some blame Saturday, players more so.

I like this post. And agree with it.