Discussion: Txiki Begiristain (2014/15)

[MC ID]

Honestly his first year wasn't bad, the only flop has been Jovetic and generally we got alright value for the players especially Demi, Navas and Negredo considering we made a profit on him (fern was pricey but a very good CM). His second year though has been a total failure, Fernando would struggle to get into most premier league teams, let alone one going for the title and Mangala was far too expensive.

 

[Damocles]

There have been absolutely no changes in his performance between now and February 1st.

Yet we still get comments in this thread post match.

That tells you something about where these opinions are coming from.

Ha! You have to be one of the most condescending posters on here. His performance can't just be judged on Feb 1st, and then again on September 1st, and then again on Feb 1st.

The reason it is an ongoing review of his performance, is because you give his signings time to bed in. I am not going to come on here on Feb 1st and say - poor signings, sack him.

But as the weeks go on, and it becomes clearer that the players aren't up to it, or those he has bought aren't trusted to start in these games, then I think it is absolutely the correct time to review his performance.

Bizarre comment from you, being such an intelligent man and all....

It isn't his job to bed in. Nor is it his job to ensure a good performance from the players.

One of the reasons for the large amount of criticism of Begiristain, and something that some of us have already highlighted and will do again and again and again and again, is that many people don't seem to know what the job of a Director of Football is. Possibly because this is the first time they ever looked at one before. Brian Marwood was our last DoF though he avoided the title itself and called himself a Football Administrator exactly because of this type of inane criticism.

The DoF's job is to provide a team that the manager can work with. If the manager plays those players as part of his squad then it's a good signing because the manager feels that they have use to the squad. If the manager doesn't play those players, like Nastasic or Guidetti for example, then this is a bad signing by the DoF.

Demichelis is a first team starter as is Navas and Fernandinho. They've played about 100 games between them this year and even more las year. Great signings by the DoF.

Jovetic, Mangala, and Fernando are all playing games regularly and the manager seems to think that they have the quality necessary to be in the team. Caballero is a challenge to Joe Hart though you could argue that not challenging enough; more game time than Panti though and the manager has no qualms about playing him for the first team. Good signings by the DoF. Jovetic may turn into a bad signing if he goes at the end of the year.

Sagna hasn't really had the game time that would be expected nor Lampard since the deal was wrapped up in January to extend his contract. Negredo had 6 months then dropped off form and was sold. Bad signings by the DoF.

I cannot stress this enough, and I have a feeling that it will have to become a mantra in this thread:

The manager is responsible for the performance of players and not the Director of Football. This doesn't matter if they score 100 goals in a season or get sent off every game, it isn't a criteria to judge him on. He is NOT a coach.

In fact in the above scenario the player who gets sent off every game would be a great signing because it means that the manager is picking him a lot.

If he buys players which the manager picks and uses then he's done well. If he doesn't then he's done badly. His performance is NOT judged week to week. In fact the entire point of him is that his performance isn't judged week by week and those who do do this seemingly miss the purpose, practice and point of them.

 

[pardoeofftomexico]

Txixi is only in his second season. Have the signings really been that bad and have they really cost that much money?

Maybe I am missing a player but the 2013/14 signings that cost money were Fernandinho, Negredo, Jovetic, Navas and Demichelis. Without Fernandinho and Negredo (first half of season) we would not have won the league so they have to be regarded as good buys. Jovetic I think is a good player who has been unlucky with injuries. Navas at around £15M is a good buy. Demichelis was cheap and a good buy.

The 2014/15 signings who cost transfer fees were Mangala (and it was stated at the time that he was £32M and not £42M as some like to quote), Fernando £12M, Willie who was originally mentioned to be £3.5M and Sagna and Lampard on free transfers. I think that Mangala will have a good career with us. A United fan commented to me that Vidic had a poor first season and that we should give Mangala time. Bony is too recent to debate.

However much is spent on a player you can never be certain. A lot of people would have been excited had we signed Di Maria - was it £60M that he was supposed to have cost. They may have been less excited now.

 

[GaudinoMotors]

Ha! You have to be one of the most condescending posters on here. His performance can't just be judged on Feb 1st, and then again on September 1st, and then again on Feb 1st.

The reason it is an ongoing review of his performance, is because you give his signings time to bed in. I am not going to come on here on Feb 1st and say - poor signings, sack him.

But as the weeks go on, and it becomes clearer that the players aren't up to it, or those he has bought aren't trusted to start in these games, then I think it is absolutely the correct time to review his performance.

Bizarre comment from you, being such an intelligent man and all....

It isn't his job to bed in. Nor is it his job to ensure a good performance from the players.

One of the reasons for the large amount of criticism of Begiristain, and something that some of us have already highlighted and will do again and again and again and again, is that many people don't seem to know what the job of a Director of Football is. Possibly because this is the first time they ever looked at one before. Brian Marwood was our last DoF though he avoided the title itself and called himself a Football Administrator exactly because of this type of inane criticism.

The DoF's job is to provide a team that the manager can work with. If the manager plays those players as part of his squad then it's a good signing because the manager feels that they have use to the squad. If the manager doesn't play those players, like Nastasic or Guidetti for example, then this is a bad signing by the DoF.

Demichelis is a first team starter as is Navas and Fernandinho. They've played about 100 games between them this year and even more las year. Great signings by the DoF.

Jovetic, Mangala, and Fernando are all playing games regularly and the manager seems to think that they have the quality necessary to be in the team. Caballero is a challenge to Joe Hart though you could argue that not challenging enough; more game time than Panti though and the manager has no qualms about playing him for the first team. Good signings by the DoF. Jovetic may turn into a bad signing if he goes at the end of the year.

Sagna hasn't really had the game time that would be expected nor Lampard since the deal was wrapped up in January to extend his contract. Negredo had 6 months then dropped off form and was sold. Bad signings by the DoF.

I cannot stress this enough, and I have a feeling that it will have to become a mantra in this thread:

The manager is responsible for the performance of players and not the Director of Football. He is NOT a coach.

If he buys players which the manager picks and uses then he's done well. If he doesn't then he's done badly. His performance is NOT judged week to week. In fact the entire point of him is that his performance isn't judged week by week and those who do do this seemingly miss the purpose, practice and point of them.

That's all well and good Damo but sometimes even a good Manager can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
You are getting tangled up in defining what a DoF is - it's not the position many are disputing, it's the quality, mentality and sutability of the players the present DoF has brought in that's questionanble. Being good enough to get into the team is one thing - but actually improving it and progressing us is another.

 

[dancity19]

Ha! You have to be one of the most condescending posters on here. His performance can't just be judged on Feb 1st, and then again on September 1st, and then again on Feb 1st.

The reason it is an ongoing review of his performance, is because you give his signings time to bed in. I am not going to come on here on Feb 1st and say - poor signings, sack him.

But as the weeks go on, and it becomes clearer that the players aren't up to it, or those he has bought aren't trusted to start in these games, then I think it is absolutely the correct time to review his performance.

Bizarre comment from you, being such an intelligent man and all....

It isn't his job to bed in. Nor is it his job to ensure a good performance from the players.

One of the reasons for the large amount of criticism of Begiristain, and something that some of us have already highlighted and will do again and again and again and again, is that many people don't seem to know what the job of a Director of Football is. Possibly because this is the first time they ever looked at one before. Brian Marwood was our last DoF though he avoided the title itself and called himself a Football Administrator exactly because of this type of inane criticism.

The DoF's job is to provide a team that the manager can work with. If the manager plays those players as part of his squad then it's a good signing because the manager feels that they have use to the squad. If the manager doesn't play those players, like Nastasic or Guidetti for example, then this is a bad signing by the DoF.

Demichelis is a first team starter as is Navas and Fernandinho. They've played about 100 games between them this year and even more las year. Great signings by the DoF.

Jovetic, Mangala, and Fernando are all playing games regularly and the manager seems to think that they have the quality necessary to be in the team. Caballero is a challenge to Joe Hart though you could argue that not challenging enough; more game time than Panti though and the manager has no qualms about playing him for the first team. Good signings by the DoF. Jovetic may turn into a bad signing if he goes at the end of the year.

Sagna hasn't really had the game time that would be expected nor Lampard since the deal was wrapped up in January to extend his contract. Negredo had 6 months then dropped off form and was sold. Bad signings by the DoF.

I cannot stress this enough, and I have a feeling that it will have to become a mantra in this thread:

The manager is responsible for the performance of players and not the Director of Football. He is NOT a coach.

If he buys players which the manager picks and uses then he's done well. If he doesn't then he's done badly. His performance is NOT judged week to week. In fact the entire point of him is that his performance isn't judged week by week and those who do do this seemingly miss the purpose, practice and point of them.

Jovetic is playing regularly, but was dropped from the CL squad. Ok mate.

NOT ONCE DID I SAY IT WAST THE JOB OF THE DOF TO BED THE PLAYERS IN.

What I did say, however, in case you didn't quite get it, is that I am not going to judge him immediately after signing them as I will givem time to see if they are good enough. It is, of course, up to the manager to bed them in, IF they are good enough. If the aren't good enough to bed in then this is the fault of the DOF.

The thing is, I am not actually saying he has done a terrible job. I am just saying I don't think he has done a great job, nor do I believe his signings have delivered as they should have, apart from Demi and Dinho as you point out. Navas is too hit and miss.

Some things you say I agree with. Others I don't. This is always the problem with threads on these kind of topics. It's different opinions, that then cause the opinions to be further emphasised by people trying to get their point across, and the differences in opinions appear more polarised than they actually are - if you know what I mean. I just don't think he has done a fantastic job in terms of improving the team. But, admittedly, I don't know who has the final word on everything.

 

[Latics Fan SJK]

Ha! You have to be one of the most condescending posters on here. His performance can't just be judged on Feb 1st, and then again on September 1st, and then again on Feb 1st.

The reason it is an ongoing review of his performance, is because you give his signings time to bed in. I am not going to come on here on Feb 1st and say - poor signings, sack him.

But as the weeks go on, and it becomes clearer that the players aren't up to it, or those he has bought aren't trusted to start in these games, then I think it is absolutely the correct time to review his performance.

Bizarre comment from you, being such an intelligent man and all....

It isn't his job to bed in. Nor is it his job to ensure a good performance from the players.

One of the reasons for the large amount of criticism of Begiristain, and something that some of us have already highlighted and will do again and again and again and again, is that many people don't seem to know what the job of a Director of Football is. Possibly because this is the first time they ever looked at one before. Brian Marwood was our last DoF though he avoided the title itself and called himself a Football Administrator exactly because of this type of inane criticism.

The DoF's job is to provide a team that the manager can work with. If the manager plays those players as part of his squad then it's a good signing because the manager feels that they have use to the squad. If the manager doesn't play those players, like Nastasic or Guidetti for example, then this is a bad signing by the DoF.

Demichelis is a first team starter as is Navas and Fernandinho. They've played about 100 games between them this year and even more las year. Great signings by the DoF.

Jovetic, Mangala, and Fernando are all playing games regularly and the manager seems to think that they have the quality necessary to be in the team. Caballero is a challenge to Joe Hart though you could argue that not challenging enough; more game time than Panti though and the manager has no qualms about playing him for the first team. Good signings by the DoF. Jovetic may turn into a bad signing if he goes at the end of the year.

Sagna hasn't really had the game time that would be expected nor Lampard since the deal was wrapped up in January to extend his contract. Negredo had 6 months then dropped off form and was sold. Bad signings by the DoF.

I cannot stress this enough, and I have a feeling that it will have to become a mantra in this thread:

The manager is responsible for the performance of players and not the Director of Football. He is NOT a coach.

If he buys players which the manager picks and uses then he's done well. If he doesn't then he's done badly. His performance is NOT judged week to week. In fact the entire point of him is that his performance isn't judged week by week and those who do do this seemingly miss the purpose, practice and point of them.

It's a rather simple way of looking at a DoF's performance, purely by going off the number of appearances his signings make.

Just because the DoF brings in players that the manager goes on to use on a regular basis, that doesn't necessarily mean he's doing well, certainly not as black and white as you've alluded to, above.

Let's take Fernando as a case in point: -

Garcia was sold, leaving Pellegrini with next to no true defensive midfield options. DoF brings in Fernando, and that leaves Pellegrini with the decision to either play him, or look to your youth system. Now Fernando may well be a distincly average player, but Pellegrini will no doubt see him as the better option than someone untested kid. Fernando goes on to make 20+ appearances for City, under the guidance of Pellegrini, and according to you that means the DoF has made a successful signing. All that says to me is that you dont really have many other options in defensive midfield, than to play Fernando, so Pellegrini doesn't really have much choice in the matter. It absolutely no way says to me that Fernando can be filed in the "DoF Successful Signings" cabinet.

Now of course it is down to Pellegrini to get the required performances out of the DoF's signings, but it seemingly isn't his job to make the decision on whether he is good enough in the first place. If Pellegrini has a choice between Fernando and an untested kid, he'll choose Fernando (or play others out of position, such as Fernandinho & Yaya Toure last night who are box-to-box / attacking midfielders respectively).

 

[Damocles]

That's all well and good Damo but sometimes even a good Manager can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
You are getting tangled up in defending waht a DoF is - it's not the position many are disputing, it's the quality, mentality and sutability of the players the present DoF has brought in that's questionanble. Being good enough to get into the team is one thing - but actually improving it and progressing us is another.

It's not so much the position that I'm defending, just that many of those who are criticising are doing so using false criteria and their complaints should be directed towards the manager instead. Which makes the criticism unfair.

Essentially there is a wave of users on here who are saying we should sell Joe Hart because he isn't scoring enough goals. I mean, he's a footballer and footballer's are supposed to score goals right? The criteria that they are judging Hart on in that analogy is incorrect which makes the criticism daft.

Usually with me, you'll find that I rarely attack people's arguments and tend to expand on them. Most of the time when I'm critical as above it's because they have a badly structured argument, and people misinterpret this as a criticism of the content. It's the academic in me ;)

You can argue that Txiki has done a good job or a bad job and I have my own opinion on this (generally good so far, but early too judge) and that's fine. But people are judging him on what isn't his job is my point.

 

[flb]

Ha! You have to be one of the most condescending posters on here. His performance can't just be judged on Feb 1st, and then again on September 1st, and then again on Feb 1st.

The reason it is an ongoing review of his performance, is because you give his signings time to bed in. I am not going to come on here on Feb 1st and say - poor signings, sack him.

But as the weeks go on, and it becomes clearer that the players aren't up to it, or those he has bought aren't trusted to start in these games, then I think it is absolutely the correct time to review his performance.

Bizarre comment from you, being such an intelligent man and all....

It isn't his job to bed in. Nor is it his job to ensure a good performance from the players.

One of the reasons for the large amount of criticism of Begiristain, and something that some of us have already highlighted and will do again and again and again and again, is that many people don't seem to know what the job of a Director of Football is. Possibly because this is the first time they ever looked at one before. Brian Marwood was our last DoF though he avoided the title itself and called himself a Football Administrator exactly because of this type of inane criticism.

The DoF's job is to provide a team that the manager can work with. If the manager plays those players as part of his squad then it's a good signing because the manager feels that they have use to the squad. If the manager doesn't play those players, like Nastasic or Guidetti for example, then this is a bad signing by the DoF.

Demichelis is a first team starter as is Navas and Fernandinho. They've played about 100 games between them this year and even more las year. Great signings by the DoF.

Jovetic, Mangala, and Fernando are all playing games regularly and the manager seems to think that they have the quality necessary to be in the team. Caballero is a challenge to Joe Hart though you could argue that not challenging enough; more game time than Panti though and the manager has no qualms about playing him for the first team. Good signings by the DoF. Jovetic may turn into a bad signing if he goes at the end of the year.

Sagna hasn't really had the game time that would be expected nor Lampard since the deal was wrapped up in January to extend his contract. Negredo had 6 months then dropped off form and was sold. Bad signings by the DoF.

I cannot stress this enough, and I have a feeling that it will have to become a mantra in this thread:

The manager is responsible for the performance of players and not the Director of Football. He is NOT a coach.

If he buys players which the manager picks and uses then he's done well. If he doesn't then he's done badly. His performance is NOT judged week to week. In fact the entire point of him is that his performance isn't judged week by week and those who do do this seemingly miss the purpose, practice and point of them.

That's all well and good Damo but sometimes even a good Manager can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
You are getting tangled up in defining what a DoF is - it's not the position many are disputing, it's the quality, mentality and sutability of the players the present DoF has brought in that's questionanble. Being good enough to get into the team is one thing - but actually improving it and progressing us is another.

I honestly think that PV would have made a better DoF for City, played in this league, won all the top honours both for club and country, has day in day out experience of getting his hands dirty with the EDS set up and commands an awful lot of respect from fellow professionals.

He will more than likely be of benefit to another club sadly as Txiki wont be going anywhere for the foreseeable future, some on here are saying judge him after 5 seasons-5 seasons i ask you.

 

[VOOMER]

This is as much about who we haven't signed as who we have signed. Sanchez and Song on loan, are two players who would give us far more than we'll ever get from Fernando and Bony in this , or any other season.

 

[crystal_mais]

It isn't his job to bed in. Nor is it his job to ensure a good performance from the players.

One of the reasons for the large amount of criticism of Begiristain, and something that some of us have already highlighted and will do again and again and again and again, is that many people don't seem to know what the job of a Director of Football is. Possibly because this is the first time they ever looked at one before. Brian Marwood was our last DoF though he avoided the title itself and called himself a Football Administrator exactly because of this type of inane criticism.

The DoF's job is to provide a team that the manager can work with. If the manager plays those players as part of his squad then it's a good signing because the manager feels that they have use to the squad. If the manager doesn't play those players, like Nastasic or Guidetti for example, then this is a bad signing by the DoF.

Demichelis is a first team starter as is Navas and Fernandinho. They've played about 100 games between them this year and even more las year. Great signings by the DoF.

Jovetic, Mangala, and Fernando are all playing games regularly and the manager seems to think that they have the quality necessary to be in the team. Caballero is a challenge to Joe Hart though you could argue that not challenging enough; more game time than Panti though and the manager has no qualms about playing him for the first team. Good signings by the DoF. Jovetic may turn into a bad signing if he goes at the end of the year.

Sagna hasn't really had the game time that would be expected nor Lampard since the deal was wrapped up in January to extend his contract. Negredo had 6 months then dropped off form and was sold. Bad signings by the DoF.

I cannot stress this enough, and I have a feeling that it will have to become a mantra in this thread:

The manager is responsible for the performance of players and not the Director of Football. He is NOT a coach.

If he buys players which the manager picks and uses then he's done well. If he doesn't then he's done badly. His performance is NOT judged week to week. In fact the entire point of him is that his performance isn't judged week by week and those who do do this seemingly miss the purpose, practice and point of them.

That's all well and good Damo but sometimes even a good Manager can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
You are getting tangled up in defining what a DoF is - it's not the position many are disputing, it's the quality, mentality and sutability of the players the present DoF has brought in that's questionanble. Being good enough to get into the team is one thing - but actually improving it and progressing us is another.

I honestly think that PV would have made a better DoF for City, played in this league, won all the top honours both for club and country, has day in day out experience of getting his hands dirty with the EDS set up and commands an awful lot of respect from fellow professionals.

He will more than likely be of benefit to another club sadly as Txiki wont be going anywhere for the foreseeable future, some on here are saying judge him after 5 seasons-5 seasons i ask you.

Ok does PV have the necessary attributes of negotiating with agents, scouts and all the tasks that come with the role?