Latics Fan SJK said:
It's a rather simple way of looking at a DoF's performance, purely by going off the number of appearances his signings make.
Just because the DoF brings in players that the manager goes on to use on a regular basis, that doesn't necessarily mean he's doing well, certainly not as black and white as you've alluded to, above.
Let's take Fernando as a case in point: -
Garcia was sold, leaving Pellegrini with next to no true defensive midfield options. DoF brings in Fernando, and that leaves Pellegrini with the decision to either play him, or look to your youth system. Now Fernando may well be a distincly average player, but Pellegrini will no doubt see him as the better option than someone untested kid. Fernando goes on to make 20+ appearances for City, under the guidance of Pellegrini, and according to you that means the DoF has made a successful signing. All that says to me is that you dont really have many other options in defensive midfield, than to play Fernando, so Pellegrini doesn't really have much choice in the matter. It absolutely no way says to me that Fernando can be filed in the "DoF Successful Signings" cabinet.
Now of course it is down to Pellegrini to get the required performances out of the DoF's signings, but it seemingly isn't his job to make the decision on whether he is good enough in the first place. If Pellegrini has a choice between Fernando and an untested kid, he'll choose Fernando (or play others out of position, such as Fernandinho & Yaya Toure last night who are box-to-box / attacking midfielders respectively).
Damocles said:
Fernando doesn't play as a defensive midfielder as we mainly play a flat 2 man midfield. His competition is primarily Lampard, Fernandinho, Yaya and Milner. With Nasri, Demichelis, and a couple of other and stranger potentials possible. And then the kids obviously.
From what I've seen of City this season, I'd say he has been deployed as a defensive midfielder, despite 4-4-2 being the formation of choice for Pellegrini. When he's played, he's been next to one of Fernandinho or Yaya (bar the odd exception such as Milner), and when the wide midfielders in the same XI are Silva & Nasri, then it's less of your conventional 4-4-2 and more of a 4-2-2-2, which is Pellegrini's favoured formation (see Malaga). If you've let go of Javi Garcia (who, incidentally, was also a disappointing signing IMO), then you need someone to take over that role. Just because Mancini liked a 4-3-3 / 4-1-4-1 with a natural defensive midfielder, and Pellegrini prefers 2 up top, it doesn't mean he wouldn't be wanting Garcia's replacement to be defensively minded. With that in mind, neither Lampard, Yaya, Fernandinho, Milner or anyone else in your first team squad fits that bill.
Damocles said:
Let's flip this around somewhat. If Fernando had played 20 games for City this year, had scored 15 goals, 10 assists and was the most successful tackler in the league would he be a great signing by the DoF? No. Because his performance isn't linked to his successfulness from the DoF point of view, only his ability to be used by the manager to get the best out of the squad. And 20 games across all competitions isn't enough for a "great" signing.
I'd actually say it would make him a great signing, yes. I get what you're saying with regards to a DoF bringing someone in who Pellegrini
can use, or depend on, but like I said before, that's not the sole reason, or even the primary reason, that determines whether said signing has been successful. The DoF brought Fernando in, as he saw him as the best option out there for City with the necessary attributes to benefit the team. There is no doubt those attributes were defensively focused, hence his position over the majority of his career. Pellegrini now has a player who, as a defensive-minded midfielder, is the "best" option. I'd personally argue that he's Pellegrini's "only" option, when it comes to a natural DM, yet we've seen Pellegrini turn to Fernandinho & Yaya many times to play as the deeper central midfielders instead of Fernando. What that tells me is that Pellegrini doesn't view Fernando as all that dependable, and regardless of him playing 20+ games for City, that doesn't make him a "successful" signing. Now had Fernando achieved the statistics you mention above, then we wouldn't be seeing Fernando left out of games where a defensive minded midfielder is preferred, and instead seeing more attack-minded players playing in his position. Instead we'd be purring about what a signing he was and he'd be one of the first names on the teamsheet.
Damocles said:
It's certainly not the only criteria that he is judged on but it's the primary one. His job is to provide the manager with players that he thinks are good enough to play. The manager has shown with people like Pozo and Ambrose that he won't just play them because they are the only option - instead moving Milner up front rather than give them game time. If the DoF had bought them two in this year then they'd be a massive failure as a signing.
He gave Pozo a chance I recall, although not much of one. I dont disagree with the majority of what you've said here though, but it doesn't sway my opinion on the Fernando signing, nor what warrants the "successful" tag when it comes to a DoF signing.
Damocles said:
Here's another example:
Our last Director of Football brought in Scott Sinclair. He had little competition as an out and out wide winger to play on the left and the other midfielders were more outside playmakers than wingers. Should have got 25 games right? That's a bad signing.
I agree - that was a bad signing. A very bad signing. Mancini was handed Sinclair and still felt he couldn't add something to the team. Again, I refer back to Pellegrini and Fernando - just because Pellegrini has played him 20+ times doesn't necessarily mean he feels he's been a good signing either. Perhaps Mancini thought he could get wide midfielders doing a better job than Sinclair as a natural winger, than Pellegrini thinks he can get attacking midfielders doing a better job than Fernando in a more defensive minded midfield role, hence going with Fernando more than Mancini went with Sinclair.
Damocles said:
Managers have consistently shown that they don't pick players who aren't good enough, and instead move a player who IS good enough into a different position. Fernando has played over 200 games for Porto and won numerous leagues, including being successful in European competitions against high ranking opponents. He's not the best player in the world but in an FFP limited window where we needed to find the best player we could for the price of sale for Jack Rodwell then he's good enough. This isn't some guy from the Championship, he's an experienced footballer who has played well against some really big teams. For £12m we did fine in terms of talent. His form is unacceptable not his talent and that is the manager's problem.
