Discussion: Txiki Begiristain (2014/15)

[flb]

That's all well and good Damo but sometimes even a good Manager can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
You are getting tangled up in defending waht a DoF is - it's not the position many are disputing, it's the quality, mentality and sutability of the players the present DoF has brought in that's questionanble. Being good enough to get into the team is one thing - but actually improving it and progressing us is another.

It's not so much the position that I'm defending, just that many of those who are criticising are doing so using false criteria and their complaints should be directed towards the manager instead. Which makes the criticism unfair.

Essentially there is a wave of users on here who are saying we should sell Joe Hart because he isn't scoring enough goals. I mean, he's a footballer and footballer's are supposed to score goals right? The criteria that they are judging Hart on in that analogy is incorrect which makes the criticism daft.

Usually with me, you'll find that I rarely attack people's arguments and tend to expand on them. Most of the time when I'm critical as above it's because they have a badly structured argument, and people misinterpret this as a criticism of the content. It's the academic in me ;)

You can argue that Txiki has done a good job or a bad job and I have my own opinion on this (generally good so far, but early too judge) and that's fine. But people are judging him on what isn't his job is my point.

Thats the trouble with the DoF role mate, nobody is to blame, the DoF brings players into the club he deems good-the manager trains them, is a social worker to them , they don't perform on the pitch-manager carries the can when he had no input to the signings made and gets fired for not winning football matches.

Who at the club makes the decision that the DoF is performing badly? Can you envisage a scenario where Soriano tells Txiki to pack his bags? If so will he get out of his "Barca" comfort zone and employ someone non Barca?

Soriano is using the Barca model as a template for City, could take a decade-do we have enough time for that?

 

[VOOMER]

It isn't his job to bed in. Nor is it his job to ensure a good performance from the players.

One of the reasons for the large amount of criticism of Begiristain, and something that some of us have already highlighted and will do again and again and again and again, is that many people don't seem to know what the job of a Director of Football is. Possibly because this is the first time they ever looked at one before. Brian Marwood was our last DoF though he avoided the title itself and called himself a Football Administrator exactly because of this type of inane criticism.

The DoF's job is to provide a team that the manager can work with. If the manager plays those players as part of his squad then it's a good signing because the manager feels that they have use to the squad. If the manager doesn't play those players, like Nastasic or Guidetti for example, then this is a bad signing by the DoF.

Demichelis is a first team starter as is Navas and Fernandinho. They've played about 100 games between them this year and even more las year. Great signings by the DoF.

Jovetic, Mangala, and Fernando are all playing games regularly and the manager seems to think that they have the quality necessary to be in the team. Caballero is a challenge to Joe Hart though you could argue that not challenging enough; more game time than Panti though and the manager has no qualms about playing him for the first team. Good signings by the DoF. Jovetic may turn into a bad signing if he goes at the end of the year.

Sagna hasn't really had the game time that would be expected nor Lampard since the deal was wrapped up in January to extend his contract. Negredo had 6 months then dropped off form and was sold. Bad signings by the DoF.

I cannot stress this enough, and I have a feeling that it will have to become a mantra in this thread:

The manager is responsible for the performance of players and not the Director of Football. He is NOT a coach.

If he buys players which the manager picks and uses then he's done well. If he doesn't then he's done badly. His performance is NOT judged week to week. In fact the entire point of him is that his performance isn't judged week by week and those who do do this seemingly miss the purpose, practice and point of them.

That's all well and good Damo but sometimes even a good Manager can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
You are getting tangled up in defining what a DoF is - it's not the position many are disputing, it's the quality, mentality and sutability of the players the present DoF has brought in that's questionanble. Being good enough to get into the team is one thing - but actually improving it and progressing us is another.

I honestly think that PV would have made a better DoF for City, played in this league, won all the top honours both for club and country, has day in day out experience of getting his hands dirty with the EDS set up and commands an awful lot of respect from fellow professionals.

He will more than likely be of benefit to another club sadly as Txiki wont be going anywhere for the foreseeable future, some on here are saying judge him after 5 seasons-5 seasons i ask you.

Barcelona haven't exactly struggled to sign quality players after he left and his record with them was 50/50 and he was going to pass on Messi at one stage.

 

[bugsyblue]

Txixi is only in his second season. Have the signings really been that bad and have they really cost that much money?

Maybe I am missing a player but the 2013/14 signings that cost money were Fernandinho, Negredo, Jovetic, Navas and Demichelis. Without Fernandinho and Negredo (first half of season) we would not have won the league so they have to be regarded as good buys. Jovetic I think is a good player who has been unlucky with injuries. Navas at around £15M is a good buy. Demichelis was cheap and a good buy.

The 2014/15 signings who cost transfer fees were Mangala (and it was stated at the time that he was £32M and not £42M as some like to quote), Fernando £12M, Willie who was originally mentioned to be £3.5M and Sagna and Lampard on free transfers. I think that Mangala will have a good career with us. A United fan commented to me that Vidic had a poor first season and that we should give Mangala time. Bony is too recent to debate.

However much is spent on a player you can never be certain. A lot of people would have been excited had we signed Di Maria - was it £60M that he was supposed to have cost. They may have been less excited now.

I agree. Also not all transfers will work out but I don't think we've really overpaid for anyone under his realm unless Mangala doesn't work out.

The only signing I'm really unhappy with is Bony. It was a panic buy because all our strikers were injured. Now we've spent £30m on a player who at best will only ever be a squad player. I'd rather take more of a punt on our youth and bring in one or two top signings. That £30m could pay for half of Pogba's fee.

This summer we need to be in for the likes of Pogba, Veratti, Reus, Bale, Koke. Players who will genuinely improve our first team.

 

[Damocles]

It's a rather simple way of looking at a DoF's performance, purely by going off the number of appearances his signings make.

Just because the DoF brings in players that the manager goes on to use on a regular basis, that doesn't necessarily mean he's doing well, certainly not as black and white as you've alluded to, above.

Let's take Fernando as a case in point: -

Garcia was sold, leaving Pellegrini with next to no true defensive midfield options. DoF brings in Fernando, and that leaves Pellegrini with the decision to either play him, or look to your youth system. Now Fernando may well be a distincly average player, but Pellegrini will no doubt see him as the better option than someone untested kid. Fernando goes on to make 20+ appearances for City, under the guidance of Pellegrini, and according to you that means the DoF has made a successful signing. All that says to me is that you dont really have many other options in defensive midfield, than to play Fernando, so Pellegrini doesn't really have much choice in the matter. It absolutely no way says to me that Fernando can be filed in the "DoF Successful Signings" cabinet.

Now of course it is down to Pellegrini to get the required performances out of the DoF's signings, but it seemingly isn't his job to make the decision on whether he is good enough in the first place. If Pellegrini has a choice between Fernando and an untested kid, he'll choose Fernando (or play others out of position, such as Fernandinho & Yaya Toure last night who are box-to-box / attacking midfielders respectively).

Fernando doesn't play as a defensive midfielder as we mainly play a flat 2 man midfield. His competition is primarily Lampard, Fernandinho, Yaya and Milner. With Nasri, Demichelis, and a couple of other and stranger potentials possible. And then the kids obviously.

Let's flip this around somewhat. If Fernando had played 20 games for City this year, had scored 15 goals, 10 assists and was the most successful tackler in the league would he be a great signing by the DoF? No. Because his performance isn't linked to his successfulness from the DoF point of view, only his ability to be used by the manager to get the best out of the squad. And 20 games across all competitions isn't enough for a "great" signing.

It's certainly not the only criteria that he is judged on but it's the primary one. His job is to provide the manager with players that he thinks are good enough to play. The manager has shown with people like Pozo and Ambrose that he won't just play them because they are the only option - instead moving Milner up front rather than give them game time. If the DoF had bought them two in this year then they'd be a massive failure as a signing.

Here's another example:

Our last Director of Football brought in Scott Sinclair. He had little competition as an out and out wide winger to play on the left and the other midfielders were more outside playmakers than wingers. Should have got 25 games right? That's a bad signing.

Managers have consistently shown that they don't pick players who aren't good enough, and instead move a player who IS good enough into a different position. Fernando has played over 200 games for Porto and won numerous leagues, including being successful in European competitions against high ranking opponents. He's not the best player in the world but in an FFP limited window where we needed to find the best player we could for the price of sale for Jack Rodwell then he's good enough. This isn't some guy from the Championship, he's an experienced footballer who has played well against some really big teams. For £12m we did fine in terms of talent. His form is unacceptable not his talent and that is the manager's problem.

 

[Damocles]

I honestly think that PV would have made a better DoF for City, played in this league, won all the top honours both for club and country, has day in day out experience of getting his hands dirty with the EDS set up and commands an awful lot of respect from fellow professionals.

He will more than likely be of benefit to another club sadly as Txiki wont be going anywhere for the foreseeable future, some on here are saying judge him after 5 seasons-5 seasons i ask you.

Absolutely none of those make him qualified to be a Director of Football. It is not a coaching role and it doesn't matter if people respect you or not. In fact Vieira was part of our executive team and retired from it because he wanted to do something football related.

 

[cibaman]

I've often wondered what sort of internal process City, and other top clubs, go through to get Board/Owner approval to invest in a player. Obviously its going to be a bit different to the processes used by major corporations when making investment decisions. I doubt that they prepared a Discounted Cash Flow analysis when we signed Aguero. But there must be more to it than "We think X is worth £30m, can we sign him?"

I would expect that when we buy players some sort of assessment will have to be made of what would make that signing a success or failure. How many first team games they can expect to play, whether a starter, sub or squad player, goals/assists, future re-sale value, international caps etc. For the really big buys, their commercial value, shirt sales, value in overseas markets etc. They would surely have to document these success factors so that the Board can review, with a degree of objectivity, what a player has achieved compared to what the DoF said he would achieve. A method which allows the club to assess the success of the DoF.

 

[Damocles]

[
Thats the trouble with the DoF role mate, nobody is to blame, the DoF brings players into the club he deems good-the manager trains them, is a social worker to them , they don't perform on the pitch-manager carries the can when he had no input to the signings made and gets fired for not winning football matches.

Who at the club makes the decision that the DoF is performing badly? Can you envisage a scenario where Soriano tells Txiki to pack his bags? If so will he get out of his "Barca" comfort zone and employ someone non Barca?

Soriano is using the Barca model as a template for City, could take a decade-do we have enough time for that?

I think you're seeing things that aren't really there.

I've said this before but Begiristain was the outstanding candidate for the job whether or not Soriano was in charge. He is the most successful Director of Football in the history of the game by numerous criteria and has proven his quality.

If the manager is given a group of top quality players and comes up with the performances at Burnley then it's his fault. Again, we won the title last year. The signings of Sagna, Lampard, Mangala and Fernando haven't changed this; in fact all it has done is given Pellegrini MORE options to work with not less.

 

[flb]

That's all well and good Damo but sometimes even a good Manager can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.
You are getting tangled up in defining what a DoF is - it's not the position many are disputing, it's the quality, mentality and sutability of the players the present DoF has brought in that's questionanble. Being good enough to get into the team is one thing - but actually improving it and progressing us is another.

I honestly think that PV would have made a better DoF for City, played in this league, won all the top honours both for club and country, has day in day out experience of getting his hands dirty with the EDS set up and commands an awful lot of respect from fellow professionals.

He will more than likely be of benefit to another club sadly as Txiki wont be going anywhere for the foreseeable future, some on here are saying judge him after 5 seasons-5 seasons i ask you.

Ok does PV have the necessary attributes of negotiating with agents, scouts and all the tasks that come with the role?

Did TB when he got his first DoF role?

 

[blue city199]

I've often wondered what sort of internal process City, and other top clubs, go through to get Board/Owner approval to invest in a player. Obviously its going to be a bit different to the processes used by major corporations when making investment decisions. I doubt that they prepared a Discounted Cash Flow analysis when we signed Aguero. But there must be more to it than "We think X is worth £30m, can we sign him?"

I would expect that when we buy players some sort of assessment will have to be made of what would make that signing a success or failure. How many first team games they can expect to play, whether a starter, sub or squad player, goals/assists, future re-sale value, international caps etc. For the really big buys, their commercial value, shirt sales, value in overseas markets etc. They would surely have to document these success factors so that the Board can review, with a degree of objectivity, what a player has achieved compared to what the DoF said he would achieve. A method which allows the club to assess the success of the DoF.

100% agree

the board of directors and the chairman khaldoon will know how the player recruitment takes place and therefor will be able to acces the success of the manager and the DOF

many people here in english media( gary nivelle the rag, jammy carra ,martin samuel etc ) say that the DOF chooses the player he wants and the manager has no say in it but at man city from what is see is that it is a collaborative process and txiki and ferran take care the financial side of things
(txiki has got good contacts with all big football agents )
so if some players are not doing well then you cant point fingers at one guy

 

[crystal_mais]

I honestly think that PV would have made a better DoF for City, played in this league, won all the top honours both for club and country, has day in day out experience of getting his hands dirty with the EDS set up and commands an awful lot of respect from fellow professionals.

He will more than likely be of benefit to another club sadly as Txiki wont be going anywhere for the foreseeable future, some on here are saying judge him after 5 seasons-5 seasons i ask you.

Ok does PV have the necessary attributes of negotiating with agents, scouts and all the tasks that come with the role?

Did TB when he got his first DoF role?

Don't know - Maybe PV doesn't want such a role - It's more strategy, business administrator role - PV maybe wants to be hands on - hence coaching

TB must have qualities, otherwise he would not be in this job, been courted for other jobs or had success at Barca - I don't know enough about what he does, what his success criteria looks like, what the expectation of a DoF role to be successful is - to make a formal judgement.

It's easy to go grab a household name we all know about - proven quality and known - How had is it to bring in unknown players with potential? and what is the % threshold for measuring success?

The reason I am asking lots of questions today is:-
1 - Disappointed with some of the progress this year but can't put my finger on why?
2- feeling more analytical rather than knee jerk finger pointing as some to understand how this is meant to work
3 - helps manage future expectations

Emanalo or whatever he is called does the DoF role for Chelseas - they have bought loads over the last few years - sold some on for great profit - Now is that seen as successful as they have made a profit on failed players? or a failure as the players identified are not good enough to play for Chelsea?

Same at Liverpool - they have bought quite a few these last few years - some have never played and are out on loan or not getting a game - success or failure?