Do you support ASLEF (train drivers union) strikes?

[hilts]

I would prefer for any pay rises to go to those at the bottom end of any private or public sector organisation. The cost of living affects those people the most.

 

[BrianW]

The problem is that if you keep on focusing the biggest rises to those at the bottom, you erode differentials and there is less and less incentive to take on jobs with more responsibility. The other problem is that this argument always excludes the 'executives' on huge 'compensation packages' who are deemed worthy to earn literally hundreds of thousands of pounds a year in salary, bonus and share options.

You know, there are several issues with this country that underlie all these problems we are having:

1. Entrenched and systemic gross inequality, with a tiny minority owning the vast majority of all wealth.
2. Piss poor education and training, due to faulty attitudes and priorities.
3. Long-term underinvestment driven by the national obsession with quick profits as opposed to long-term growth.
4. Inadequate productivity driven by factors 2 and 3.
5. A wholly outdated system of industrial relations based on conflict. (See Germany for a far superior method that we are too British to adopt.)

How do we sort this out? Fuck knows. As the Irishman said, if I was going to Dublin I wouldn't start from here. But not by destroying workers' real wages and terms and conditions - that merely makes people more resentful and more defensive.

 

[Zubrman]

The problem is that if you keep on focusing the biggest rises to those at the bottom, you erode differentials and there is less and less incentive to take on jobs with more responsibility. The other problem is that this argument always excludes the 'executives' on huge 'compensation packages' who are deemed worthy to earn literally hundreds of thousands of pounds a year in salary, bonus and share options.

You know, there are several issues with this country that underlie all these problems we are having:

1. Entrenched and systemic gross inequality, with a tiny minority owning the vast majority of all wealth.
2. Piss poor education and training, due to faulty attitudes and priorities.
3. Long-term underinvestment driven by the national obsession with quick profits as opposed to long-term growth.
4. Inadequate productivity driven by factors 2 and 3.
5. A wholly outdated system of industrial relations based on conflict. (See Germany for a far superior method that we are too British to adopt.)

How do we sort this out? Fuck knows. As the Irishman said, if I was going to Dublin I wouldn't start from here. But not by destroying workers' real wages and terms and conditions - that merely makes people more resentful and more defensive.

Well said!

 

[Gorton_Tubster]

No I don't support people striking from any occupation

I never did until I left barclays to go work in care world.
You'll have to work Xmas they said or it's a lack of care, "neglect"... I'll have to make sure my phone is off at all times and they can inspect it at any time, otherwise I'm looking at a grooming allegation.

I left that shit, those poor workers. They deserve a union with teeth.

I'm in the post office now and union backup stops that sort of shit.

 

[bluethrunthru]

Just been listening on the radio about childrens social care - so starved of resources there is a shortage of social workers so - like agency nurses - councils are getting agency staff in at a cost of £40 per hour..........

And what we see there as we are with rails and the NHS and the Post Office and others - the myth of effective privatisation laid bare when it comes to what are really public services not corporations. You don't get competition and you don't get cost savings - just greed at the top where they charge as much as they think they can get away with

 

[hilts]

The problem is that if you keep on focusing the biggest rises to those at the bottom, you erode differentials and there is less and less incentive to take on jobs with more responsibility. The other problem is that this argument always excludes the 'executives' on huge 'compensation packages' who are deemed worthy to earn literally hundreds of thousands of pounds a year in salary, bonus and share options.

You know, there are several issues with this country that underlie all these problems we are having:

1. Entrenched and systemic gross inequality, with a tiny minority owning the vast majority of all wealth.
2. Piss poor education and training, due to faulty attitudes and priorities.
3. Long-term underinvestment driven by the national obsession with quick profits as opposed to long-term growth.
4. Inadequate productivity driven by factors 2 and 3.
5. A wholly outdated system of industrial relations based on conflict. (See Germany for a far superior method that we are too British to adopt.)

How do we sort this out? Fuck knows. As the Irishman said, if I was going to Dublin I wouldn't start from here. But not by destroying workers' real wages and terms and conditions - that merely makes people more resentful and more defensive.

Yeah the bottom of the pile have been spoilt recently. Anymore bumps to the minimum wage may make the social worker drop a bit of grub off at the food bank for those train drivers.

Pmsl

 

[BrianW]

Yeah the bottom of the pile have been spoilt recently. Anymore bumps to the minimum wage may make the social worker drop a bit of grub off at the food bank for those train drivers.

Pmsl

You didn't read it, did you?

'The problem is that if you keep on focusing the biggest rises to those at the bottom, you erode differentials and there is less and less incentive to take on jobs with more responsibility.'

That is, if you keep on doing this, eventually the whole workforce ends up on more or less the same wage. It is not a sustainable policy over any length of time. Why would anyone take charge when they are basically on the same wedge as a new starter who has no responsibilities? Why bother learning anything new, or upping your skills?

You can do it for a year or two, especially if the gaps in pay are abnormally large. But you can't keep on doing it.

 

[hilts]

You didn't read it, did you?

'The problem is that if you keep on focusing the biggest rises to those at the bottom, you erode differentials and there is less and less incentive to take on jobs with more responsibility.'

That is, if you keep on doing this, eventually the whole workforce ends up on more or less the same wage. It is not a sustainable policy over any length of time. Why would anyone take charge when they are basically on the same wedge as a new starter who has no responsibilities? Why bother learning anything new, or upping your skills?

You can do it for a year or two, especially if the gaps in pay are abnormally large. But you can't keep on doing it.

The thread is about train drivers going on strike now and I said there are other people currently in Greater need. But please do continue waffling about a scenario that isn't even happening.

 

[BrianW]

There are lots of people 'in greater need'. Like the tramps in Piccadilly Gardens. However, no one is paid on the basis of 'what they need'. They get paid according to the market and the laws of supply and demand. Train drivers are not hanging about on street corners waiting for the call. There is a shortage of them, it's a rare skill that takes months to learn, and the market values them higher in consequence. That's how it works.

It's why Kevin de Bruyne gets paid more than the woman who makes Kevin de Bruyne's tea, even though she may be living on her own with five kids and paying more in rent than she can afford.

 

[bluenova]

You didn't read it, did you?

'The problem is that if you keep on focusing the biggest rises to those at the bottom, you erode differentials and there is less and less incentive to take on jobs with more responsibility.'

That is, if you keep on doing this, eventually the whole workforce ends up on more or less the same wage. It is not a sustainable policy over any length of time. Why would anyone take charge when they are basically on the same wedge as a new starter who has no responsibilities? Why bother learning anything new, or upping your skills?

You can do it for a year or two, especially if the gaps in pay are abnormally large. But you can't keep on doing it.

How much of an issue is this in reality?

We've gone from a minimum wage of under 50% of median wages, to one that is heading well over 60% and the TUC are arguing for it to head up to around 75%, yet I'd probably have to go back to before the NMW was introduced to see regular arguments about differentials.

I pretty much agree with everything in the previous post where you raised this, but suggesting we shouldn't still be focusing on low wages doesn't make much sense to me. It's certainly a long way down the list of reasons why wages overall are so poor compared with when the Tories came into power.

It's also important for unions to push for rights for those at the bottom, as they tend to be the ones with least power who would struggle most to force change through industrial action.