Donald Trump

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

But then we're talking about different definitions of intelligence. At the most fundamental level Raymond is intelligent, he is doing intelligent things, his intelligence is just extremely narrow. If we found a planet in space with an entire civilisation of Raymond Babbitt's on it, nobody would disagree that we've found "intelligent life".

What you're talking about is a more generalised and balanced form of intelligence across disciplines, a kind of renaissance-man mental architecture - I would never accuse Trump of being above average in this respect. When it comes to a general cognitive ability, he is an idiot.

Agree.

The trouble lies in what we mean when we say that someone is "intelligent."

When one uses the word in this sense, we mean working intelligence in a broad, everyday sense.

When one uses the word "intelligent" in other contexts, we often mean, comparatively intelligent. Such as, "Crows are extremely 'intelligent'.

I'll give you this - Trump is likely much more intelligent than your average crow. But he's still a fucking moron.

 

[KS55]

Yeah, I’m not saying he’s the sharpest tool in the box. I work with people who are. He absolutely isn’t.

Just think it’s incorrect to label him as stupid.

The military and intelligence people thought he was both stupid and monumentally ignorant.

 

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

Yeah, I’m not saying he’s the sharpest tool in the box. I work with people who are. He absolutely isn’t.

Just think it’s incorrect to label him as stupid.

Agree.

Labeling Trump as simply "stupid" is stupid. Because Trump, in fact, is a fucking moron, and is monumentally, off-scale, stupid.

 

[SkyBlueFlux]

Agree.

The trouble lies in what we mean when we say that someone is "intelligent."

When one uses the word in this sense, we mean working intelligence in a broad, everyday sense.

When one uses the word "intelligent" in other contexts, we often mean, comparatively intelligent. Such as, "Crows are extremely 'intelligent'.

I'll give you this - Trump is likely much more intelligent than your average crow. But he's still a fucking moron.

I think that's the crux of this whole thing - is that people are just using different definitions of intelligence - but they're doing this for very specific reasons.

I'm not disputing (and I'm not sure many would) that in 'common parlance', I would categorise Trump as 'dumb as bricks'. I think some people's concern is that when you speak publicly in this way about Trump, then you're at risk of absolving him from responsibility and playing into his hands. The shitshow he has created has been crafted by his own kind of 'narrow-band intelligence', and he should be made to wear the consequences of that. Painting him as not mentally competent risks blame being incorrectly apportioned to those around him with superior mental faculties. Indeed, this is often exactly how he has dodged consequences to date, by playing stupid. Boris Johnson used exactly the same tactic.

 

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

I think that's the crux of this whole thing - is that people are just using different definitions of intelligence - but they're doing this for very specific reasons.

I'm not disputing (and I'm not sure many would) that in 'common parlance', I would categorise Trump as 'dumb as bricks'. I think some people's concern is that when you speak publicly in this way about Trump, then you're at risk of absolving him from responsibility and playing into his hands. The shitshow he has created has been crafted by his own kind of 'narrow-band intelligence', and he should be made to wear the consequences of that. Painting him as not mentally competent risks blame being incorrectly apportioned to those around him with superior mental faculties. Indeed, this is often exactly how he has dodged consequences to date, by playing stupid. Boris Johnson used exactly the same tactic.

With respect, I think you're way over-complicating things.

No one is giving Trump a pass because he isn't up-to-speed and the poor old guy is being duped by those around him.

Trump is all about me. How does such-and-such benefit me? That's basically all. Me instructs everything he does.

Trump is intellectually lazy and thinks that he knows more than everyone else, whatever the topic.

His intellectual laziness means that he does not know (and could care less) about numerous important facts essential to forming rational, well-reasoned opinions and hence to making sound decisions.

Consequently, Trump is an idiot.

 

[MillionMilesAway]

I think that's the crux of this whole thing - is that people are just using different definitions of intelligence - but they're doing this for very specific reasons.

I'm not disputing (and I'm not sure many would) that in 'common parlance', I would categorise Trump as 'dumb as bricks'. I think some people's concern is that when you speak publicly in this way about Trump, then you're at risk of absolving him from responsibility and playing into his hands. The shitshow he has created has been crafted by his own kind of 'narrow-band intelligence', and he should be made to wear the consequences of that. Painting him as not mentally competent risks blame being incorrectly apportioned to those around him with superior mental faculties. Indeed, this is often exactly how he has dodged consequences to date, by playing stupid. Boris Johnson used exactly the same tactic.

I think that's about right - it's not intelligence, it's just disinterest.

Making money for Trumps? Interested
Environmental concerns? Disinterested
Getting elected so he can preen and posture? Interested
Being accurate rather than inflammatory? Disinterested.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

The military and intelligence people thought he was both stupid and monumentally ignorant.

Absolutely true, but then he's never really needed to be until he became POTUS. He should never have been nominated, let alone elected.

He doesn't confirm to the traditionally accepted form of intelligence that most people understand in terms of being book smart or understanding of technical details, but he's a master bullshitter. All he needs to be is smarter than his mark (hence the ironic 'I love the poorly educated' statement he made). Saying something loudly and confidently enough will hold sway over a lesser educated individual, and this is where he is smart, in being able to readily identify those people he is able to manipulate. Effective lying is a high form of intelligence.

 

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

Absolutely true, but then he's never really needed to be until he became POTUS. He should never have been nominated, let alone elected.

He doesn't confirm to the traditionally accepted form of intelligence that most people understand in terms of being book smart or understanding of technical details, but he's a master bullshitter. All he needs to be is smarter than his mark (hence the ironic 'I love the poorly educated' statement he made). Saying something loudly and confidently enough will hold sway over a lesser educated individual, and this is where he is smart, in being able to readily identify those people he is able to manipulate. Effective lying is a high form of intelligence.

I was with you until your last sentence, " Effective lying is a high form of intelligence."

Well then, so is failing every single math quiz. Getting less than 5 marks out of a hundred in multiple choice tests. Consistently proving that you're inept at math, in spite of everyone else around you performing far better, is a "high form of intelligence." - fucking bullshit.

Why bullshit? Because when you label Trump as having (a high form of) intelligence - you're muddying the waters with a personal meaning of the word "intelligence" when used in the context of describing someone as "intelligent."

Trump is a fucking moron. He's not "intelligent" in the everyday, broad sense of the word.

Trump has some characteristics - charisma for example - that are far above the norm. But is charisma, intelligence?

How does Trump stack up, intellectually, to this?


or this?


Call Trump "charismatic" if you will - I've no objection at all. But your claim that Trump must be intelligent because he is charismatic is a bridge, way, way, way, too far. You've lost sight of the meaning of "intelligence" when applied in the common sense to a person.

 

[Trevor Morley's Tache]

I was with you until your last sentence, " Effective lying is a high form of intelligence."

Well then, so is failing every single math quiz. Getting less than 5 marks out of a hundred in multiple choice tests. Consistently proving that you're inept at math, in spite of everyone else around you performing far better, is a "high form of intelligence." - fucking bullshit.

Why bullshit? Because when you label Trump as having (a high form of) intelligence - you're muddying the waters with a personal meaning of the word "intelligence" when used in the context of describing someone as "intelligent."

Trump is a fucking moron. He's not "intelligent" in the everyday, broad sense of the word.

Trump has some characteristics - charisma for example - that are far above the norm. But is charisma, intelligence?

How does Trump stack up, intellectually, to this?


or this?


Call Trump "charismatic" if you will - I've no objection at all. But your claim that Trump must be intelligent because he is charismatic is a bridge, way, way, way, too far. You've lost sight of the meaning of "intelligence" when applied in the common sense to a person.

I'll rephrase my last sentence - Effective lying requires a higher cognitive loading than simply telling the truth or recalling a fact.

https://academicworks.cuny.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1726&context=gc_etds#:~:text=Lying%20is%20a%20more%20cognitively,primarily%20requires%20recall%20of%20information.

 

[BlueMoonAcrossThePond]

I'll rephrase my last sentence - Effective lying requires a higher cognitive loading than simply telling the truth or recalling a fact.

https://academicworks.cuny.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1726&context=gc_etds#:~:text=Lying%20is%20a%20more%20cognitively,primarily%20requires%20recall%20of%20information.

Whereas Trump just parrots the same mistruths over and over. When he goes off script, he's suddenly talking about how he bested Obama in 2016 and how Obama has no chance against him in 2024. A one time slip? Understandable. But over and over?

The guy can't even fucking tell the difference between Haley and Pelosi.