Dzeko, Tevez and the system

[No17]

seen dzeko many times for wolfsburg in the champs league and on espn in the bundesliga and have to say never ever did i see him played on the left wing....the fella is 6ft 4 he should be played in the the middle and spend most of his time in and around the box do you not agree?.......how you can say tevez isn't a team player when he chases down every ball when he's not in possession and is forever coming back to the half way line to get the ball in order to try and create something for us is fuckin mind boggling....ok he may sometimes shoot in and around the area when a pass may be the better option but you can't blame the lad for having confidence in his own ability to score especially the form he's been in this season can you.

I agree on Dzeko acting as a winger (both left and right, for about 5-10 minutes or so consistently, so it wasn't by pure chance), wrote about it several times here... I was shocked, now I am bemused...

I put it to either (a) his getting such instructions at the time and not being able to say "No" as he just arrived, or (b) getting the most desperate I have seen him, and I have seen him in quite a few emotionally charged and seriously desperate situations (Bosnia - Portugal WC qualifier play off, for instance) so I deem it less likely...

On your Tevez point, I think that's actually a part of the problem... Is he doing it for the team, or for himself? I am now leaning towards the latter, and I'm quite sad to say so, as I've been trying to convince everyone around me and their grandmother that Dzeko and Tevez would be the best striker duo the Premiership has ever seen, for two years now. Now, after seeing what appears his intentional "oversight" of a new chap on the team who should be his PARTNER (not a bloody competitor, as appears to believe) I'm getting second thoughts... If he proves me wrong in the end, you won't be happier than me, that much I can tell you.

I quite agreed with most of what you said...and this is the point I really agree with you the most...

It could be, also that the table in the pressuring each other that went on between the club and him has now turned in the club's favor, so now he maybe feels the obligation to over impress as now he might see him self as "expendable" or not in position to make any further demands...just a thought

 

[wanderer72]

I agree on Dzeko acting as a winger (both left and right, for about 5-10 minutes or so consistently, so it wasn't by pure chance), wrote about it several times here... I was shocked, now I am bemused...

I put it to either (a) his getting such instructions at the time and not being able to say "No" as he just arrived, or (b) getting the most desperate I have seen him, and I have seen him in quite a few emotionally charged and seriously desperate situations (Bosnia - Portugal WC qualifier play off, for instance) so I deem it less likely...

On your Tevez point, I think that's actually a part of the problem... Is he doing it for the team, or for himself? I am now leaning towards the latter, and I'm quite sad to say so, as I've been trying to convince everyone around me and their grandmother that Dzeko and Tevez would be the best striker duo the Premiership has ever seen, for two years now. Now, after seeing what appears his intentional "oversight" of a new chap on the team who should be his PARTNER (not a bloody competitor, as appears to believe) I'm getting second thoughts... If he proves me wrong in the end, you won't be happier than me, that much I can tell you.

I quite agreed with most of what you said...and this is the point I really agree with you the most...

It could be, also that the table in the pressuring each other that went on between the club and him has now turned in the club's favor, so now he maybe feels the obligation to over impress as now he might see him self as "expendable" or not in position to make any further demands...just a thought

You mean pressuring Tevez or Dzeko?

If you mean pressuring Tevez, I thought of that before but didn't make sense to me in the end -- Mancini is too much of an old fox to allow that to happen, even if that was his plan (and I have a hunch it may be :).

If you mean pressuring Dzeko, it's way too early for that and Mancini (and the club) have done everything to give Dzeko even more time than I believe he actually needs... Just listen to what Mancini has been saying about him, and try to read a bit between the lines, he's doing everything he can to lower the initial expectations, very intelligently so.

 

[The Fat el Hombre]

Although I think the line about being angry about Dzeko's RSC-esque performance is out of order, I think the OP has naield it with his post. Dzeko has totally imbalanced the team. Not his fault, and I think he'll be a quality player for us, but it isn't working and I doubt it's worth persisting with as I don't think it will work long term. We didn't get the best out of pretty much any of our attacking players the other day and at times they were bunching and getting in each others way. I think we need to use Dzeko or Tevez or play a formation where they can both play in their more natural roles

 

[wanderer72]

Although I think the line about being angry about Dzeko's RSC-esque performance is out of order, I think the OP has naield it with his post. Dzeko has totally imbalanced the team. Not his fault, and I think he'll be a quality player for us, but it isn't working and I doubt it's worth persisting with as I don't think it will work long term. We didn't get the best out of pretty much any of our attacking players the other day and at times they were bunching and getting in each others way. I think we need to use Dzeko or Tevez or play a formation where they can both play in their more natural roles

Dzeko didn't play in either of the Leicester matches in which this Championship (!!!) side scored four (4) goals altogether. Unless you can prove that his applauding from the lower terrace upset the team, I don't see a reason to buy what you're selling (in bold).

The fault is not with Dzeko (personally, or "as a kind of player"), the fault is with those who cannot adopt to the change, and the change was being slowly introduced months before Dzeko was even signed!

 

[cleavers]

The only change between the Leicester game, and Villa was that Leicester attacked us (it was a cup tie so no point defending, and its not in their managers philosophy anyway), leaving the game open for us to attack as we liked, plus they are not as good as Villa, evidenced by the relative leagues they are in. Villa defended for their lives from the start, and especially once they had the lead, a lucky lead really, funneling us down the single channel in the middle, towards their 2 centre backs, there was no change of system to accomodate Dzeko, it was the same flexible system that we adopt in all games, just the other team didn't allow us to do what we wanted, so its little wonder that players got in each others way.

Mancini plays a 433 system always, and has done since he arrived, sometimes its with largely 1 forward, sometimes with 3 forwards, depending on the opposition, score in, and time in the game, and players available. He doesn't play wingers, he plays wide midfielders or forwards, and 2 attacking full backs (of which some are better at attacking than others).

Too much over analysis of one game by the "football manager" experts I think.

 

[No17]

I quite agreed with most of what you said...and this is the point I really agree with you the most...

It could be, also that the table in the pressuring each other that went on between the club and him has now turned in the club's favor, so now he maybe feels the obligation to over impress as now he might see him self as "expendable" or not in position to make any further demands...just a thought

You mean pressuring Tevez or Dzeko?

If you mean pressuring Tevez, I thought of that before but didn't make sense to me in the end -- Mancini is too much of an old fox to allow that to happen, even if that was his plan (and I have a hunch it may be :).

If you mean pressuring Dzeko, it's way too early for that and Mancini (and the club) have done everything to give Dzeko even more time than I believe he actually needs... Just listen to what Mancini has been saying about him, and try to read a bit between the lines, he's doing everything he can to lower the initial expectations, very intelligently so.

I meant Tevez...

Although I think the line about being angry about Dzeko's RSC-esque performance is out of order, I think the OP has naield it with his post. Dzeko has totally imbalanced the team. Not his fault, and I think he'll be a quality player for us, but it isn't working and I doubt it's worth persisting with as I don't think it will work long term. We didn't get the best out of pretty much any of our attacking players the other day and at times they were bunching and getting in each others way. I think we need to use Dzeko or Tevez or play a formation where they can both play in their more natural roles

that's where I formed my opinion about the "Tevez issue" I think that he is either unable (which I doubt) or unwilling to make Dzeko feel comfortable and try and partner up a bit more with him....just a thought ( I have read in the papers about this "Tevez issue" as someone stated that Dzeko was brought in so that they can have a player who can replace Tevez if he makes any further transfer requests...)

 

[Bigga]

seen dzeko many times for wolfsburg in the champs league and on espn in the bundesliga and have to say never ever did i see him played on the left wing....the fella is 6ft 4 he should be played in the the middle and spend most of his time in and around the box do you not agree?.......how you can say tevez isn't a team player when he chases down every ball when he's not in possession and is forever coming back to the half way line to get the ball in order to try and create something for us is fuckin mind boggling....ok he may sometimes shoot in and around the area when a pass may be the better option but you can't blame the lad for having confidence in his own ability to score especially the form he's been in this season can you.

the truth is that there are 2 Tevez.

when we DON'T have possession of the ball Tevez is the best striker in the world. without debate.

when we have possession of the ball Tevez too often become an obstacle to the development of the maneuver.

Probably one of the best assessments of Tévez's use within the team, I've read.

Absolutely bang on.

 

[wanderer72]

the truth is that there are 2 Tevez.

when we DON'T have possession of the ball Tevez is the best striker in the world. without debate.

when we have possession of the ball Tevez too often become an obstacle to the development of the maneuver.

Probably one of the best assessments of Tévez's use within the team, I've read.

Absolutely bang on.

Agree, short and sweet.

 

[Bigga]

Although I think the line about being angry about Dzeko's RSC-esque performance is out of order, I think the OP has naield it with his post. Dzeko has totally imbalanced the team. Not his fault, and I think he'll be a quality player for us, but it isn't working and I doubt it's worth persisting with as I don't think it will work long term. We didn't get the best out of pretty much any of our attacking players the other day and at times they were bunching and getting in each others way. I think we need to use Dzeko or Tevez or play a formation where they can both play in their more natural roles

I think you will see one of two things in the next 4/ 5 games. Dzeko will play with either Tévez in support(if he wants to be disciplined enough to do the job) or Silva.

Mancini will see that not all three can play. After all, you cannot have two 'central' strikers traversing through the same area of play, nor can you have two play makers traversing through the same area of play. Why? Cos they get in each other's way and often there's empty space where someone should be, but isn't as they're occupying someone's space. So, three into two doesn't go.

I think you may see Tévez 'rested' more and more as we seek balance and control within the formation. The odds are that the main attack rotation will come from Silva, Dzeko or Tévez benched at regular intervals, during Prem games.

 

[wanderer72]

Although I think the line about being angry about Dzeko's RSC-esque performance is out of order, I think the OP has naield it with his post. Dzeko has totally imbalanced the team. Not his fault, and I think he'll be a quality player for us, but it isn't working and I doubt it's worth persisting with as I don't think it will work long term. We didn't get the best out of pretty much any of our attacking players the other day and at times they were bunching and getting in each others way. I think we need to use Dzeko or Tevez or play a formation where they can both play in their more natural roles

I think you will see one of two things in the next 4/ 5 games. Dzeko will play with either Tévez in support(if he wants to be disciplined enough to do the job) or Silva.

Mancini will see that not all three can play. After all, you cannot have two 'central' strikers traversing through the same area of play, nor can you have two play makers traversing through the same area of play. Why? Cos they get in each other's way and often there's empty space where someone should be, but isn't as they're occupying someone's space. So, three into two doesn't go.

I think you may see Tévez 'rested' more and more as we seek balance and control within the formation. The odds are that the main attack rotation will come from Silva, Dzeko or Tévez benched at regular intervals, during Prem games.

If you believe Tevez is likely to accept and fulfil a "support and play make" role, why don't you believe he's likely to do the same as the second striker? I have a feeling he's likelier to accept and be sticking to the latter (if at all), as he obviously prefers scoring goals to assisting...

If Tevez can indeed change his ways, I see Mancini ending up with a great set up for all three (Silva, Tevez and Dzeko), with Silva simply playmaking and these two guys scoring ahead of him...

All of this assumes Tevez acting in a disciplined manner on the pitch and sticking to the plan, of course, but so does your firstly mentioned option...