Dzeko, Tevez and the system

[balkanno]

Aston Villa Away is something different as like Wolves at Home Stadium.

Its just funny, guys relax a bit.

 

[CTID Chris]

Wanderer and Mancio know their football. Understanding City's problem strictly in terms of Formation, is quite frankly elementary.

1) The "we need width" crew don't get it. Speed of play will improve with time, and not a change of formation.
2) We don't need world class players in every position
3) Adam Johnson does not improve wide play. Frankly he seldom crosses the ball in. So I don't get the clamor for his inclusion.
4) Silva wide, reduces his effectiveness (which is his decision making and speed at which he does it)
5) Tevez's selfishness is a big part of why we fail to break teams down.
6) Kolo Toure's decisions in the back is the second biggest problem we have after Tevez's selfishness. He holds on to the ball pretending he is looking for someone to move, and often gets into trouble, or ending up hoofing it. A smart defender should release the ball quickly to the midfielders coz they are the ones with the better passing and decision making skills.
7) Gelling will make us a better team longterm.

And finally, in my opinion

Tevez, Kolo Toure and Barry probably need to go. We need players who make quicker decisions on the ball. These 3 don't. Neither does Adam Johnson, but since he is a bench player, it is okay. But for a starter, you just can't be that poor with your decision making. Tevez gets away with it because of his skill, but overall it kills our attacking instincts. Kolo Toure makes it hard on himself, and his teammates when he dallies on the ball. As the other team close out his options forcing him to hoof or force a bad pass.

Barry isn't as bad as the above 2, but his decisions are not great, and sadly we already have one CM in De Jong who is also limited. Having 2 of them, reduces the intelligence and attack mindedness that differentiates the good teams from the great ones. De Jong we can accommodate for what he brings defensively, but Barry is more a jack of all trades and master of none. Kinda like Zabaletta, and he too should be a backup.

Thus

............................Hart..................................

Boateng......Kompany.........?..............Kolarov

...........................De Jong....................................

..............Yaya..............................?......................

................................Silva...................................

...................Dzeko................?............................



This is how I presently see our team and its needs in the first 11. Now none of the players in the "question mark" have to be great individual players, just good team players, and we will be golden.

And if the current players can adjust and become better team players, then great

Not read much of the thread, but good post, although I disagree with you in parts.

Now I'm finally getting close to running out of space on my right hand when counting the good posters who 'see' on this forum.

 

[No17]

Wanderer and Mancio know their football. Understanding City's problem strictly in terms of Formation, is quite frankly elementary.

1) The "we need width" crew don't get it. Speed of play will improve with time, and not a change of formation.
2) We don't need world class players in every position
3) Adam Johnson does not improve wide play. Frankly he seldom crosses the ball in. So I don't get the clamor for his inclusion.
4) Silva wide, reduces his effectiveness (which is his decision making and speed at which he does it)
5) Tevez's selfishness is a big part of why we fail to break teams down.
6) Kolo Toure's decisions in the back is the second biggest problem we have after Tevez's selfishness. He holds on to the ball pretending he is looking for someone to move, and often gets into trouble, or ending up hoofing it. A smart defender should release the ball quickly to the midfielders coz they are the ones with the better passing and decision making skills.
7) Gelling will make us a better team longterm.

And finally, in my opinion

Tevez, Kolo Toure and Barry probably need to go. We need players who make quicker decisions on the ball. These 3 don't. Neither does Adam Johnson, but since he is a bench player, it is okay. But for a starter, you just can't be that poor with your decision making. Tevez gets away with it because of his skill, but overall it kills our attacking instincts. Kolo Toure makes it hard on himself, and his teammates when he dallies on the ball. As the other team close out his options forcing him to hoof or force a bad pass.

Barry isn't as bad as the above 2, but his decisions are not great, and sadly we already have one CM in De Jong who is also limited. Having 2 of them, reduces the intelligence and attack mindedness that differentiates the good teams from the great ones. De Jong we can accommodate for what he brings defensively, but Barry is more a jack of all trades and master of none. Kinda like Zabaletta, and he too should be a backup.

Thus

............................Hart..................................

Boateng......Kompany.........?..............Kolarov

...........................De Jong....................................

..............Yaya..............................?......................

................................Silva...................................

...................Dzeko................?............................



This is how I presently see our team and its needs in the first 11. Now none of the players in the "question mark" have to be great individual players, just good team players, and we will be golden.

And if the current players can adjust and become better team players, then great

Not read much of the thread, but good post, although I disagree with you in parts.

Now I'm finally getting close to running out of space on my right hand when counting the good posters who 'see' on this forum.

he certainly did sum up pretty much every sensible post in this thread quite nicely...

 

[blueprint]

Wanderer and Mancio know their football. Understanding City's problem strictly in terms of Formation, is quite frankly elementary.

1) The "we need width" crew don't get it. Speed of play will improve with time, and not a change of formation.
2) We don't need world class players in every position
3) Adam Johnson does not improve wide play. Frankly he seldom crosses the ball in. So I don't get the clamor for his inclusion.
4) Silva wide, reduces his effectiveness (which is his decision making and speed at which he does it)
5) Tevez's selfishness is a big part of why we fail to break teams down.
6) Kolo Toure's decisions in the back is the second biggest problem we have after Tevez's selfishness. He holds on to the ball pretending he is looking for someone to move, and often gets into trouble, or ending up hoofing it. A smart defender should release the ball quickly to the midfielders coz they are the ones with the better passing and decision making skills.
7) Gelling will make us a better team longterm.

And finally, in my opinion

Tevez, Kolo Toure and Barry probably need to go. We need players who make quicker decisions on the ball. These 3 don't. Neither does Adam Johnson, but since he is a bench player, it is okay. But for a starter, you just can't be that poor with your decision making. Tevez gets away with it because of his skill, but overall it kills our attacking instincts. Kolo Toure makes it hard on himself, and his teammates when he dallies on the ball. As the other team close out his options forcing him to hoof or force a bad pass.

Barry isn't as bad as the above 2, but his decisions are not great, and sadly we already have one CM in De Jong who is also limited. Having 2 of them, reduces the intelligence and attack mindedness that differentiates the good teams from the great ones. De Jong we can accommodate for what he brings defensively, but Barry is more a jack of all trades and master of none. Kinda like Zabaletta, and he too should be a backup.

Thus

............................Hart..................................

Boateng......Kompany.........?..............Kolarov

...........................De Jong....................................

..............Yaya..............................?......................

................................Silva...................................

...................Dzeko................?............................



This is how I presently see our team and its needs in the first 11. Now none of the players in the "question mark" have to be great individual players, just good team players, and we will be golden.

And if the current players can adjust and become better team players, then great

To quote a recent post of mine
"We are tentative when we have the opportunity to counterattack. Case in point, at one point dJ had the ball on the left flank. If he had the pace he would have burnt the slowwitted Dunne & Company but then passed back which allows the opponents ..."
I would add that if dJ had the nous he would craft & thread in a pass to Dzeko to score. Its very unlikely given his limits whilst I have seen assists & goals & counterattacking ability from Barry.
I differ with you about Kolo. He is the best experienced CB we've got. Boateng? No for his inexperience. Lets not speculate about his potential. Lescott? More of a hoofing PL 'animal' ie. hoof & run. Albeit he is decent and an experience pro, a great squad player to have.

 

[wanderer72]

What a shock!


Man City signing Dzeko rated in same class as Ibrahimovic

27.01.11 | tribalfootball.com

Former Genoa coach Gian Piero Gasperini rates Manchester City signing Edin Dzeko in the same class as Zlatan Ibrahimovic.

Gasparini is also a former Juventus youth coach and was sorry to see his old club miss out on the Bosnian.

He said, "Dzeko is a phenomenon, he reminds me of Ibra.

"He would have been great for Juve, but we've all seen what Manchester City had to pay to tear him from Wolfsburg."

<a class="postlink" href="http://www.tribalfootball.com/articles/man-city-signing-dzeko-rated-same-class-ibrahimovic-1413141" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;">http://www.tribalfootball.com/articles/ ... ic-1413141</a>

 

[DetCity]

Wanderer and Mancio know their football. Understanding City's problem strictly in terms of Formation, is quite frankly elementary.

1) The "we need width" crew don't get it. Speed of play will improve with time, and not a change of formation.
2) We don't need world class players in every position
3) Adam Johnson does not improve wide play. Frankly he seldom crosses the ball in. So I don't get the clamor for his inclusion.
4) Silva wide, reduces his effectiveness (which is his decision making and speed at which he does it)
5) Tevez's selfishness is a big part of why we fail to break teams down.
6) Kolo Toure's decisions in the back is the second biggest problem we have after Tevez's selfishness. He holds on to the ball pretending he is looking for someone to move, and often gets into trouble, or ending up hoofing it. A smart defender should release the ball quickly to the midfielders coz they are the ones with the better passing and decision making skills.
7) Gelling will make us a better team longterm.

And finally, in my opinion

Tevez, Kolo Toure and Barry probably need to go. We need players who make quicker decisions on the ball. These 3 don't. Neither does Adam Johnson, but since he is a bench player, it is okay. But for a starter, you just can't be that poor with your decision making. Tevez gets away with it because of his skill, but overall it kills our attacking instincts. Kolo Toure makes it hard on himself, and his teammates when he dallies on the ball. As the other team close out his options forcing him to hoof or force a bad pass.

Barry isn't as bad as the above 2, but his decisions are not great, and sadly we already have one CM in De Jong who is also limited. Having 2 of them, reduces the intelligence and attack mindedness that differentiates the good teams from the great ones. De Jong we can accommodate for what he brings defensively, but Barry is more a jack of all trades and master of none. Kinda like Zabaletta, and he too should be a backup.

Thus

............................Hart..................................

Boateng......Kompany.........?..............Kolarov

...........................De Jong....................................

..............Yaya..............................?......................

................................Silva...................................

...................Dzeko................?............................



This is how I presently see our team and its needs in the first 11. Now none of the players in the "question mark" have to be great individual players, just good team players, and we will be golden.

And if the current players can adjust and become better team players, then great

Very well reasoned. I remember with Arsenal, Kolo used to bring the ball into midfield himself, pushing the ball up the field quickly and starting play from the back (maybe those surging runs are a Toure thing). I still think he is one of the best central defenders around on the ball, but yeah, he does seen to have to resort to the "Kolo Turn" when he holds on to the ball to long and invites pressure all to often these days, leading to the inevitable hoof. I think that there is more of a problem with out midfielders coming to get the ball from him and finding space to bring it forward. Yaya is playing farther up the pitch (don't get me wrong, this is a good thing), and Barry and Milner aren't quick enough/aren't used to making themselves available. Problem is finding the player to replace Barry and fit our system. I think that type of player is the most difficult to find in the world, and when you have them, they don't come cheap. Can't count on one hand those playing in England now that would fit the bill, and even less that would be available.

About Johnson, I disagree. Not that he needs to play out wide, I take point 3 in it's entirety, but I believe that he has improved immensely this season regarding the speed and accuracy of his decision making, particularly his off the ball movement. He is holding up play much less frequently with the ball at his feet, and is much more frequently playing the quick 1-2 or getting himself into space. I think (hope, maybe) that he is developing into a player that fits the system well.

 

[blueprint]

Wanderer and Mancio know their football. Understanding City's problem strictly in terms of Formation, is quite frankly elementary.

1) The "we need width" crew don't get it. Speed of play will improve with time, and not a change of formation.
2) We don't need world class players in every position
3) Adam Johnson does not improve wide play. Frankly he seldom crosses the ball in. So I don't get the clamor for his inclusion.
4) Silva wide, reduces his effectiveness (which is his decision making and speed at which he does it)
5) Tevez's selfishness is a big part of why we fail to break teams down.
6) Kolo Toure's decisions in the back is the second biggest problem we have after Tevez's selfishness. He holds on to the ball pretending he is looking for someone to move, and often gets into trouble, or ending up hoofing it. A smart defender should release the ball quickly to the midfielders coz they are the ones with the better passing and decision making skills.
7) Gelling will make us a better team longterm.

And finally, in my opinion

Tevez, Kolo Toure and Barry probably need to go. We need players who make quicker decisions on the ball. These 3 don't. Neither does Adam Johnson, but since he is a bench player, it is okay. But for a starter, you just can't be that poor with your decision making. Tevez gets away with it because of his skill, but overall it kills our attacking instincts. Kolo Toure makes it hard on himself, and his teammates when he dallies on the ball. As the other team close out his options forcing him to hoof or force a bad pass.

Barry isn't as bad as the above 2, but his decisions are not great, and sadly we already have one CM in De Jong who is also limited. Having 2 of them, reduces the intelligence and attack mindedness that differentiates the good teams from the great ones. De Jong we can accommodate for what he brings defensively, but Barry is more a jack of all trades and master of none. Kinda like Zabaletta, and he too should be a backup.

Thus

............................Hart..................................

Boateng......Kompany.........?..............Kolarov

...........................De Jong....................................

..............Yaya..............................?......................

................................Silva...................................

...................Dzeko................?............................



This is how I presently see our team and its needs in the first 11. Now none of the players in the "question mark" have to be great individual players, just good team players, and we will be golden.

And if the current players can adjust and become better team players, then great

Very well reasoned. I remember with Arsenal, Kolo used to bring the ball into midfield himself, pushing the ball up the field quickly and starting play from the back (maybe those surging runs are a Toure thing). I still think he is one of the best central defenders around on the ball, but yeah, he does seen to have to resort to the "Kolo Turn" when he holds on to the ball to long and invites pressure all to often these days, leading to the inevitable hoof. I think that there is more of a problem with out midfielders coming to get the ball from him and finding space to bring it forward. Yaya is playing farther up the pitch (don't get me wrong, this is a good thing), and Barry and Milner aren't quick enough/aren't used to making themselves available. Problem is finding the player to replace Barry and fit our system. I think that type of player is the most difficult to find in the world, and when you have them, they don't come cheap. Can't count on one hand those playing in England now that would fit the bill, and even less that would be available.

About Johnson, I disagree. Not that he needs to play out wide, I take point 3 in it's entirety, but I believe that he has improved immensely this season regarding the speed and accuracy of his decision making, particularly his off the ball movement. He is holding up play much less frequently with the ball at his feet, and is much more frequently playing the quick 1-2 or getting himself into space. I think (hope, maybe) that he is developing into a player that fits the system well.

And thats the nub of it. A good holding MF should also be able to provide an outlet to pass to and in turn hold or protect the ball when necessary. I can't see dJ in that capacity.

 

[Anonymous]

1) The "we need width" crew don't get it. Speed of play will improve with time, and not a change of formation.

I don't think the people who are saying we lack pace in our side are suggesting anything other than we currently don't have any in the team and although it's not necessary - if you're building a balanced squad, it's good to have the option.

2) We don't need world class players in every position

Totally agree.

3) Adam Johnson does not improve wide play. Frankly he seldom crosses the ball in. So I don't get the clamor for his inclusion.

He's not played as a winger though - ie his instructions probably aren't to hug the touchline and whip crosses in. Right now he's included because of the injury to Balo.

4) Silva wide, reduces his effectiveness (which is his decision making and speed at which he does it)

Agree 100%. Sticking Silva on a wing just means that when he drifts inside to try and effect the match, their is a gaping hole on the right side of our midfield and we don't have a good enough right back to provide a quality option.

5) Tevez's selfishness is a big part of why we fail to break teams down.

Completely disagree. I can see the "Carlos is greedy" movement has gathered pace in recent weeks. Personally I just don't see it. I'm sure in an 'ideal ideal' world he could occasionally not try and go it alone - but he scores goals - and bags of them, so he's allowed to do it.

6) Kolo Toure's decisions in the back is the second biggest problem we have after Tevez's selfishness. He holds on to the ball pretending he is looking for someone to move, and often gets into trouble, or ending up hoofing it. A smart defender should release the ball quickly to the midfielders coz they are the ones with the better passing and decision making skills.

That's just one of many weaknesses in Kolo's game IMO.

And finally, in my opinion

Tevez, Kolo Toure and Barry probably need to go. We need players who make quicker decisions on the ball. These 3 don't. Neither does Adam Johnson, but since he is a bench player, it is okay. But for a starter, you just can't be that poor with your decision making. Tevez gets away with it because of his skill, but overall it kills our attacking instincts. Kolo Toure makes it hard on himself, and his teammates when he dallies on the ball. As the other team close out his options forcing him to hoof or force a bad pass.

Barry isn't as bad as the above 2, but his decisions are not great, and sadly we already have one CM in De Jong who is also limited. Having 2 of them, reduces the intelligence and attack mindedness that differentiates the good teams from the great ones. De Jong we can accommodate for what he brings defensively, but Barry is more a jack of all trades and master of none. Kinda like Zabaletta, and he too should be a backup.

Obviously we'll agree to disagree on Carlos. Regarding Barry and Kolo - yep, biggest weak links in our team IMO. Neither has the speed of thought or speed of pass to play at the tempo we need to play at. As you say, playing him and De Jong is like playing with a handicap at times. Better to play one of them and build around that.

Thus

............................Hart..................................

Boateng......Kompany.........?..............Kolarov

...........................De Jong....................................

..............Yaya..............................?......................

................................Silva...................................

...................Dzeko................?............................



This is how I presently see our team and its needs in the first 11. Now none of the players in the "question mark" have to be great individual players, just good team players, and we will be golden.

And if the current players can adjust and become better team players, then great

Here's the thing with playing a diamond - even with the personnel listed, we don't have good enough players. You need world class full backs (which we don't have) and you need three top top drawer midfield players who are all technically excellent, incredibly mobile, and who are equally adept at crossing the ball and making killer passes. My opinion, Yaya can't play where you've put him effectively, especially not with Zaba and/or one of our other current full backs playing. Secondly, the 'other' midfield player. We don't have one - and again, a good 'team' player won't be enough. It would require another world class player to play there. Tevez and Dzeko IMO can play alongside each other in a front two though...

 

[Sabster]

1) The "we need width" crew don't get it. Speed of play will improve with time, and not a change of formation.

I don't think the people who are saying we lack pace in our side are suggesting anything other than we currently don't have any in the team and although it's not necessary - if you're building a balanced squad, it's good to have the option.

2) We don't need world class players in every position

Totally agree.

3) Adam Johnson does not improve wide play. Frankly he seldom crosses the ball in. So I don't get the clamor for his inclusion.

He's not played as a winger though - ie his instructions probably aren't to hug the touchline and whip crosses in. Right now he's included because of the injury to Balo.

4) Silva wide, reduces his effectiveness (which is his decision making and speed at which he does it)

Agree 100%. Sticking Silva on a wing just means that when he drifts inside to try and effect the match, their is a gaping hole on the right side of our midfield and we don't have a good enough right back to provide a quality option.

5) Tevez's selfishness is a big part of why we fail to break teams down.

Completely disagree. I can see the "Carlos is greedy" movement has gathered pace in recent weeks. Personally I just don't see it. I'm sure in an 'ideal ideal' world he could occasionally not try and go it alone - but he scores goals - and bags of them, so he's allowed to do it.

6) Kolo Toure's decisions in the back is the second biggest problem we have after Tevez's selfishness. He holds on to the ball pretending he is looking for someone to move, and often gets into trouble, or ending up hoofing it. A smart defender should release the ball quickly to the midfielders coz they are the ones with the better passing and decision making skills.

That's just one of many weaknesses in Kolo's game IMO.

And finally, in my opinion

Tevez, Kolo Toure and Barry probably need to go. We need players who make quicker decisions on the ball. These 3 don't. Neither does Adam Johnson, but since he is a bench player, it is okay. But for a starter, you just can't be that poor with your decision making. Tevez gets away with it because of his skill, but overall it kills our attacking instincts. Kolo Toure makes it hard on himself, and his teammates when he dallies on the ball. As the other team close out his options forcing him to hoof or force a bad pass.

Barry isn't as bad as the above 2, but his decisions are not great, and sadly we already have one CM in De Jong who is also limited. Having 2 of them, reduces the intelligence and attack mindedness that differentiates the good teams from the great ones. De Jong we can accommodate for what he brings defensively, but Barry is more a jack of all trades and master of none. Kinda like Zabaletta, and he too should be a backup.

Obviously we'll agree to disagree on Carlos. Regarding Barry and Kolo - yep, biggest weak links in our team IMO. Neither has the speed of thought or speed of pass to play at the tempo we need to play at. As you say, playing him and De Jong is like playing with a handicap at times. Better to play one of them and build around that.

Thus

............................Hart..................................

Boateng......Kompany.........?..............Kolarov

...........................De Jong....................................

..............Yaya..............................?......................

................................Silva...................................

...................Dzeko................?............................



This is how I presently see our team and its needs in the first 11. Now none of the players in the "question mark" have to be great individual players, just good team players, and we will be golden.

And if the current players can adjust and become better team players, then great

Here's the thing with playing a diamond - even with the personnel listed, we don't have good enough players. You need world class full backs (which we don't have) and you need three top top drawer midfield players who are all technically excellent, incredibly mobile, and who are equally adept at crossing the ball and making killer passes. My opinion, Yaya can't play where you've put him effectively, especially not with Zaba and/or one of our other current full backs playing. Secondly, the 'other' midfield player. We don't have one - and again, a good 'team' player won't be enough. It would require another world class player to play there. Tevez and Dzeko IMO can play alongside each other in a front two though...

Inter under Mancini disagrees. A midfield of Cambiasso Stankovic and Viera is none of the things you described. Maxwell was nowhere near world class either.

 

[Nurah]

Good post by Dax777. I agree with most of what he said. Here's the thing with width though. When I say we need more width, I don't mean changing formation. The problem is that I don't think we have a right-footed player who can properly cross the ball. Johnson always cut inside, and even so he still made us look more dangerous in the last 20 minutes than we had up until then. If we had had someone who could have provided more consistent crosses from the right in the game against Villa - something like the Silva (?) cross to Dzeko - I believe we would have been able to break down the Villa defense. Every time we did try to test that right side, we looked much more dangerous. The problem in the rest of the game was that we consistently tried to push straight up the middle, and there was always a wall of Villa defenders between the ball and the goal there... so many blocked shots. It's no coincidence that Kolarov looked our most dangerous player, and since Boateng had to stay a little further back with Agbonglahor, I think we just needed someone in that right wing position that could have stretched Villa a little more. The fact that their Irish fullback was already booked made that area even more vulnerable, and I think Mancini saw it but, like I said, we just don't have a particularly good player there. Someone like Krašić from Juventus for instance, although that's probably my Ex-Yu/Bosnian bias again.

In magic Football manager fantasy land I would have tried to build the team something like this over the last year:

--------------Dzeko
------Balotelli---Silva---Krasic
----------De Jong---Yaya
Kolarov---Kompany---Boateng---Alves
----------------Hart

So looking at that line up I guess what I'm saying is that I think City needs some reinforcements on the right... specifically a winger and then, if Alves really is an option, that would work well because I think long term it would be good to put Boateng into his natural position.

But also, like earlier posters have said, more critical right now is that the team gels. I think the team as it is can finish in the top 3, it just needs a little more time to fit together. It will all look better over the next few games.